Satire ;-)
Spoilers Captain America: Civil War - Grading & Discussion
- Thread starter Commander Richard
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You keep watching whatever occupies your time, because in the Marvel movies, the military is toothless. Cap alone took out military aircraft, and innumerable soldiers. You have no argument there.
The events of Winter Soldier and the opening of Civil War prove you wrong.
If you're referring to AoU, he was lucky. The average member of the military does not have convenient arrows to subdue Wanda. They are no match for her power, unless you have a scene from some mystery film showing the military overpower her.
Be nice if there was any shown evidence of this.
When did that happen? And no Bucky taking out on the ground quinjets that were only starting to take off does not really count,
Small squads not armies
small squads, and small squads.
No, they use guns and blow your head off. Seriously a sniper you don't hear until you're dead.
You mean how they had her locked up in the Raft, or how her powers were overwhelmed by exploding Crossbones.
Seriously the Avengers have limits.
They did include the scene in The First Avenger where Sergeant Barnes takes out a sniper before the German sniper could get Captain America. The implication was that he was as vulnerable to the random risk of battle as anyone else. As a special ops force the Howling Commandos would be behind the lines and not often under heavy artillery fire.
When escaping from the Triskellion in Winter Soldier.
After she voluntarily surrendered.
Of course the Avengers (mostly) have (individual) limits. But anyone who seriously expects the military to be able to take them out as a group without causing ridiculous amounts of damage is living in la la land. Pretty much the only guarantee you've got is a nuclear strike, and that STILL might not kill Hulk, Thor or Vision, but it definitely would kill a lot of random bystanders.
Generally, the Accords are completely understandable. The problem with them is that they treat the Avengers the way people treat other dangerous/powerful things in the world, but the Avengers are not comparable to any of those other things. If oversight screwups cause the police to make mistakes, the generally worst-case scenario is that a relatively small number of people die. It's a tragedy, but one people can generally come to terms with. If oversight screw-ups cause the military to make mistakes, the casualty ceiling is much higher, but still generally survivable, even if it might result in the death of a nation (or multiple nations).
If oversight screw-ups keep the Avengers from acting when they need to, the world and the entire human race could literally be destroyed as a result. In other words, there is no margin for error.
The only thing that comes even close to this in real world terms is nuclear weapons, but even those are fundamentally different because the best way to keep the world from being destroyed by nuclear weapons is to never use them. Taking that same approach with the Avengers is a guaranteed disaster.
But for something like the accords to be able to work without actively endangering the entire planet, it simply cannot place the Avengers directly under committee control without any say in what they do or don't get involved in. It has to take into account their experience (which is far higher than anyone else's in that regard), it has to take into account the potential loss of not using the Avengers, as well as the potential cost of using them, and it has to provide some sort of framework for what the Avengers can do to save the world if the oversight committee makes a terrible (potentially fatal) call.
To be fair, the Avengers themselves have also directly contributed to the tendency for people to see them as 'normal' operatives. It's highly questionable whether a group that powerful should even be getting involved in things like 'busting arms dealers' in the first place, and maybe in that regard, there should be a legal threshold for their involvement. That could be a part of the deal - give them the lattitude to do what needs to be done when the fate of the world is at stake, and in return they agree to stay out of matters that logically probably ought to be handled by police, unless they're specifically asked in.
Cap is certainly superhuman, but he's not invulnerable. Send enough ordinance and well trained soldiers at him where he can't run or hide then they'll eventually take him down. It'd be extremely costly though, especially if he takes the gloves off.
Wanda is probably the most powerful next to Vision, even more than Thor and Hulk. Her abilities were granted by an infinity stone and those things have been known to grant the power to mow down whole civilizations. Her weakness is her inexperience, she hasn't yet realised her full potential and when she does...well let's just say I wouldn't be shocked if Marvel use her as their alternate version of the Phoenix. Right now though, yeah, she's vulnerably human, but pushed to an extreme...who knows? Just remember that when she felt her brother die, she disintegrated everything around her then went and tor apart vibranium *with her mind*. That's demonstrably stronger than Mjolnir.
And for those that think the Sokovia Accords weren't any kind of registration act like in the comics: the cover of the accords said quite plainly "Framework for the Registration and Deployment of Enhanced Individuals."
Registration *and* deployment. That pretty much says it all. Also note they had the raft all ready to go. What else were they going to use that for besides dealing with non-compliance?
Wanda is probably the most powerful next to Vision, even more than Thor and Hulk. Her abilities were granted by an infinity stone and those things have been known to grant the power to mow down whole civilizations. Her weakness is her inexperience, she hasn't yet realised her full potential and when she does...well let's just say I wouldn't be shocked if Marvel use her as their alternate version of the Phoenix. Right now though, yeah, she's vulnerably human, but pushed to an extreme...who knows? Just remember that when she felt her brother die, she disintegrated everything around her then went and tor apart vibranium *with her mind*. That's demonstrably stronger than Mjolnir.
And for those that think the Sokovia Accords weren't any kind of registration act like in the comics: the cover of the accords said quite plainly "Framework for the Registration and Deployment of Enhanced Individuals."
Registration *and* deployment. That pretty much says it all. Also note they had the raft all ready to go. What else were they going to use that for besides dealing with non-compliance?
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It depends how the concussive force hits the Hulk.
If it bats him, he could be knocked away for miles, but he'll survive getting struck, and survive landing. The blast wave will save the Hulk from the heat which is probably what would get him. Radiation is his breakfast of champions.
If the Hulk was pressed against something immovable like the planet, because the explosion was from above, he'll be green pancake, and sure he might be still alive at the end of that but all that powdered bone is not going to reknit into a recognizable skeleton.
If it bats him, he could be knocked away for miles, but he'll survive getting struck, and survive landing. The blast wave will save the Hulk from the heat which is probably what would get him. Radiation is his breakfast of champions.
If the Hulk was pressed against something immovable like the planet, because the explosion was from above, he'll be green pancake, and sure he might be still alive at the end of that but all that powdered bone is not going to reknit into a recognizable skeleton.
Loved the movie, but Cap was dead wrong and more than a little bit authoritarian in his belief that he should have the right to exercise executive power without any legal constraints or accountability to the legitimately-elected democratic government.
Executive authority belongs by right to the people; the people in a democracy delegate the authority to exercise executive power to the democratically-elected government, subject to law and temporary democratic mandates, thus keeping the executive accountable to the people. For the Avengers to operate as they please--violating sovereign national borders, exercising executive authority without a democratic mandate--would be to place themselves above the law and above the will of the people.
And those who can exercise executive authority without answering to the people will inevitably abuse that authority. Just ask the people of Ferguson, Missouri.
Now, having said that -- the particular actions of the U.N. task force the legitimately-elected democratic governments set up for the Avengers to exercise executive authority through was, itself, engaging in egregious violations of human rights -- vis a vis, their decision to condemn Bucky to death without a trial or due process of law. Cap was absolutely right to thwart this, and to continue to protect Bucky after his escape was triggered; the U.N. task force was out to commit murder.
Meanwhile, Agents of SHIELD seems to be implying that the Accords may also require superpowered individuals to register with their national governments. If that is the case, that is a much more troubling law from a civil rights/civil liberties standpoint.
Cap would have had a much stronger argument against the Accords if he had framed it as, these people want to put everyone with powers on a list, and they want to commit murder with no regard for human rights or due process of law. "Tony, they want to put us on a 'list.' It wasn't that long ago for me that I got to see what happens when governments put people on 'lists.""
As it stands, I like to think that had if Zemo hadn't triggered Bucky to escape and if Tony had been a bit less of an asshat, Cap would have come around and signed a revised Accords that would have accommodated these legitimate complaints -- because I like to think that Captain America is not a douchey libertarian.
ETA:
Side-note: It is interesting how much less sympathetic President Matthew Ellis's administration comes across in this film (in the person of Secretary of State Ross) than it does in Agents of SHIELD (in the person of President Ellis himself). President Ellis seems much more personable and reasonable--even going out on a limb to protect SHIELD agents from the Russian government--there than he does in Civil War, even though Secretary Ross and his counterparts must have been negotiating the Accords in secret for a very long time before the Lagos incident.
Executive authority belongs by right to the people; the people in a democracy delegate the authority to exercise executive power to the democratically-elected government, subject to law and temporary democratic mandates, thus keeping the executive accountable to the people. For the Avengers to operate as they please--violating sovereign national borders, exercising executive authority without a democratic mandate--would be to place themselves above the law and above the will of the people.
And those who can exercise executive authority without answering to the people will inevitably abuse that authority. Just ask the people of Ferguson, Missouri.
Now, having said that -- the particular actions of the U.N. task force the legitimately-elected democratic governments set up for the Avengers to exercise executive authority through was, itself, engaging in egregious violations of human rights -- vis a vis, their decision to condemn Bucky to death without a trial or due process of law. Cap was absolutely right to thwart this, and to continue to protect Bucky after his escape was triggered; the U.N. task force was out to commit murder.
Meanwhile, Agents of SHIELD seems to be implying that the Accords may also require superpowered individuals to register with their national governments. If that is the case, that is a much more troubling law from a civil rights/civil liberties standpoint.
Cap would have had a much stronger argument against the Accords if he had framed it as, these people want to put everyone with powers on a list, and they want to commit murder with no regard for human rights or due process of law. "Tony, they want to put us on a 'list.' It wasn't that long ago for me that I got to see what happens when governments put people on 'lists.""
As it stands, I like to think that had if Zemo hadn't triggered Bucky to escape and if Tony had been a bit less of an asshat, Cap would have come around and signed a revised Accords that would have accommodated these legitimate complaints -- because I like to think that Captain America is not a douchey libertarian.
ETA:
Side-note: It is interesting how much less sympathetic President Matthew Ellis's administration comes across in this film (in the person of Secretary of State Ross) than it does in Agents of SHIELD (in the person of President Ellis himself). President Ellis seems much more personable and reasonable--even going out on a limb to protect SHIELD agents from the Russian government--there than he does in Civil War, even though Secretary Ross and his counterparts must have been negotiating the Accords in secret for a very long time before the Lagos incident.
In the most recent Agents Of S.H.I.E.L.D. episode, registration under the Sokovia Accords was explained by General Glenn Talbot (
) to include the placing of enhanced individuals on a "highly classified, protected list," the taking of fingerprint and DNA samples, analysis of powers to determine "health risks" and assignment of a "threat level" categorization. A news broadcast also specifically mentioned it providing for "monitoring" in addition to registration.So that's how it would work in the U.S., anyway. Makes one wonder how much leeway there is for each signatory country to set things up their own way. Is the U.N. "framework" a broad and general one, or is it narrow and specific?
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In the most recent Agents Of S.H.I.E.L.D. episode, registration under the Sokovia Accords was explained by General Glenn Talbot (
In fairness, I got the impression that it was unclear whether this referred to all enhanced persons, or just those working for SHIELD in the event of SHIELD becoming a legitimate government agency again.
Oh? I missed this if that's the case. Do you remember any other details?
The opening news broadcast ran as follows:
"Still no word on the whereabouts of Steve Rogers after his public feud with Tony Stark and the Avengers over the controversial Sokovia Accords. Ratified by 117 countries, the Accords place the Avengers under U.N. authority and provide a framework for the registration and monitoring of all Enhanced Individuals."
Read more at: http://transcripts.foreverdreaming.org/viewtopic.php?f=140&t=27114
Gracias!
Yeah, if the Accords require all enhanced persons to be put on a list and monitored, then that's a vastly different question than placing the Avengers under the authority of a U.N. task force. Steve really should have used that argument instead.
(Mind you, in real life terms, I think this is an example of the writers of Agents of SHIELD having different ideas than the movie writers and so retconning things -- registering and monitoring all superpowered persons was clearly not on the table in the movie itself.)
Captain America's Avengers refuse to be Registered.
Internment is the only answer.
Exile and banishment is another answer, but that'll bite them in the ass, when Steve Rogers gets hired as Captain France.
Internment is the only answer.
Exile and banishment is another answer, but that'll bite them in the ass, when Steve Rogers gets hired as Captain France.
I see you continue to live in denial about the films referenced, all so you can defend weak military "powers." The world's allegedly best trained soldiers/agents at S.H.I.E.L.D. (Winter Soldier--including the S.H.I.E.L.D. jet fighter Cap destroyed on his own), Strucker & Rumlow's soldiers were no match for super powered beings. You can continue to deny what is clear as day, but the films show all variety of trained people being repeatedly outclassed / defeated, no matter the size of the force.
Exactly. If she did not surrender, who was going to stop her? A pack of soldiers? Good luck with that.
Of course.
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Saw it again yesterday, my wife wanted to see it for her birthday.
Anyway, question for those familiar with the comics. After Zemo reactivates Bucky's programming, at one point T'Challa (not in BP costume) catches up to him, and his ring seems to "react" to Bucky's arm. What was that all about?
Anyway, question for those familiar with the comics. After Zemo reactivates Bucky's programming, at one point T'Challa (not in BP costume) catches up to him, and his ring seems to "react" to Bucky's arm. What was that all about?
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