Spoilers Captain America: Civil War - Grading & Discussion

[Hartzilla2007]

@Hartzilla2007 ,
We and Coulson weren't talking just about S.H.I.E.L.D.'s index specifically, but lists of powered individuals in general and the Sokovia Accords in particular. They aren't "unrelated"; they're all examples of how the assets, intelligence, and operating procedures of authorities set up for ostensibly legitimate and necessary purposes can actually wind up serving the ends of bad guys.

There are no other lists of powered individuals other than SHIELD's secret encrypted index, and just becuase a shadowy spy organization with laughable levels of oversight got infiltrated by terrorists doesn't mean every authority is at risk of it.

And sometimes it turns out those authorities in fact are the bad guys. The good guys in S.H.I.E.L.D. and later the ATCU didn't know they were really doing HYDRA's work.

Which is why I don't like the position of unlimited trust without oversight SHIELD and the Cap seem to want. They tried that with SHIELD before and found it became a HYDRA front.

Seeing that scenario unfold not once but multiple times is what changed Coulson's perspective, it didn't come out of the blue.

Be nice if they had hinted at that before this episode.

 

[dahj]

If the U.N. Security Council can agree

I veto your veto on agreeing to a veto.

 

[Vendikarr]

I veto your veto on agreeing to a veto.

Exactly. With the exception of the occassional natural disaster, I see the Avengers just sitting on their ass waiting to be deployed.

 

[Hartzilla2007]

The membership of the Avengers wouldn'r remain static either. Every Accords signatory would be directing their enhanced to join the Avengers, and the next thing you know, you have a super powered army, at the command of the U.N.

If the U.N. Security Council can agree how to use them, they's be nearly unstoppable.

Considering they can occasionally get armed forces of the world to do things for them if they bother with it enough, I'm not seeing the threat of UN domination. Especially since they have to agree with each other enough to do it.

 

[Hartzilla2007]

Exactly. With the exception of the occassional natural disaster, I see the Avengers just sitting on their ass waiting to be deployed.

So basically the Avengers start only dealing with the occasional threat to the planet and not worrying about arms dealers and mercenaries. [sarcasm]Oh, how will we survive![/sarcasm]

 

[The Mighty Monkey of Mim]

There are no other lists of powered individuals other than SHIELD's secret encrypted index, and just becuase a shadowy spy organization with laughable levels of oversight got infiltrated by terrorists doesn't mean every authority is at risk of it.

Project Insight was about using Zola's algorithm to create A LIST of potential threats to be crossed off. And there WAS oversight, namely the Department of Defense and the World Security Council. BOTH were infiltrated by HYDRA. Why should we believe the U.N. would provide any more reliable oversight?

 

[Guy Gardener]

Rogers has to more worried about not being allowed to hunt snarks, than that a bad apple might be holding his reigns.

 

[Hartzilla2007]

Project Insight was about using Zola's algorithm to create A LIST of potential threats to be crossed off.

Yeah, which has fuck all to do with an index of superhumans. Its about HYDRA figuring out who would try to stop them. Plus Agents of SHIELD pointed out the hoovering Hellicarriers of doom to smite terrorists were actually Nick Fury's idea and HYDRA just hijacked it

And there WAS oversight, namely the Department of Defense

This is speculation at best.

and the World Security Council.

The guys Fury pretty much ignored and did what he damn well pleased. Some oversight.

Why should we believe the U.N. would provide any more reliable oversight?

Because the Avengers would actually have to listen to them.

 

[The Mighty Monkey of Mim]

Speculation? Pierce was the SECRETARY OF DEFENSE!

 

[Hartzilla2007]

Speculation? Pierce was the SECRETARY OF DEFENSE!

This was stated in the film? Because all I got was him being refereed to by the tittle secretary which could have just been a SHIELD position of some kind. Doesn't really mean Secretary of Defense. be kind of screwy for the for a US government official to be the defacto head of an international intelligence and law enforcement agency.

 

[Guy Gardener]

Hydra wanted an unstable world constantly in conflict.

Nick Fury was exceptional at that.

When the time came, they assumed that they would be greeted as liberators, no matter what they had to do to create peace.

 

[TREK_GOD_1]

'Civil War' seems to go with a more insidious approach as it's less about totalitarianism under the pretext of protecting people from themselves and more about persecuting and exploiting minorities on the pretext of protecting people from said minorities.

That is the case: the UN members know they--and their military forces--are hopelessly ill-equipped to deal with (or defeat) super-humans who will not sit still and act like regular people long enough for some little soldier or pilot to point and shoot. As a result, the power grab / fear mongering of the Accords comes into existence. Thankfully, the members of Team Cap see the corruption, paranoia (and hypocrisy) in the worthless document, and will do what is necessary to protect those who need their kind of help.

 

[Hartzilla2007]

That is the case: the UN members know they--and their military forces--are hopelessly ill-equipped to deal with (or defeat) super-humans

Never underestimate the ability of human ingenuity to kill a self proclaimed god. Just look at how easy it was to tear the Avengers apart.

 

[TREK_GOD_1]

That will be short lived. The UN members and its cronies could not do a thing, other than hope super powered beings--of their own free will--signed on. They are begging to be handed absolute control they do not deserve.

 

[Skywalker]

I mean, normal human beings created a cage that was able to contain Asgardian gods. I think they could figure out a way to stop the Avengers if they had to.

 

[Hartzilla2007]

I mean, normal human beings created a cage that was able to contain Asgardian gods. I think they could figure out a way to stop the Avengers if they had to.

Especially since pretty much everyone besides Thor, Hulk, and Vision aren't entirely bullet proof.

 

[The Old Mixer]

I mean, normal human beings created a cage that was able to contain Asgardian gods.

If you mean the one in The Avengers, it didn't.

 

[Hartzilla2007]

If you mean the one in The Avengers, it didn't.

Thor would disagree.

 

[The Nth Doctor]

Thor would disagree.

Huh, then I must have imagined Thor's participation in New York because no one let him out.

 

[Gaith]

Speculation? Pierce was the SECRETARY OF DEFENSE!

No, he was the Secretary of the World Security Council, or SHIELD, one of those. (This Wiki page is wrong.)

Coulson is now against registering enhanced all individuals because he doesn't want a HYDRA, or something similar, to steal it and going on a kidnapping/experimentation murder-spree.