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Spoilers Captain America: Civil War - Grading & Discussion

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A low flying and hovering quinjet isn't exactly the same as a fighter jet making a strafing run.

The problem with them is that they treat the Avengers the way people treat other dangerous/powerful things in the world, but the Avengers are not comparable to any of those other things.

Yeah they kind of are.

If oversight screw-ups keep the Avengers from acting when they need to, the world and the entire human race could literally be destroyed as a result. In other words, there is no margin for error.

Yeah, no margin of error so trusting to fate of the world to a handful of people getting to decide to do whatever they want under the mistaken belief that they can't make mistakes is reckless

But for something like the accords to be able to work without actively endangering the entire planet, it simply cannot place the Avengers directly under committee control without any say in what they do or don't get involved in. It has to take into account their experience (which is far higher than anyone else's in that regard), it has to take into account the potential loss of not using the Avengers, as well as the potential cost of using them, and it has to provide some sort of framework for what the Avengers can do to save the world if the oversight committee makes a terrible (potentially fatal) call.

Which was Stark's endgame AFTER THEY REGAIN THE WORLD'S TRUST.

To be fair, the Avengers themselves have also directly contributed to the tendency for people to see them as 'normal' operatives. It's highly questionable whether a group that powerful should even be getting involved in things like 'busting arms dealers' in the first place, and maybe in that regard, there should be a legal threshold for their involvement. That could be a part of the deal - give them the lattitude to do what needs to be done when the fate of the world is at stake, and in return they agree to stay out of matters that logically probably ought to be handled by police, unless they're specifically asked in.

Which would probably be a good compromise, a shame Cap seems to think they shouldn't so that.

Cap is certainly superhuman, but he's not invulnerable. Send enough ordinance and well trained soldiers at him where he can't run or hide then they'll eventually take him down. It'd be extremely costly though, especially if he takes the gloves off.

I doubt it, he isn't bullet proof so a sniper shot to the head would take him out.

Wanda is probably the most powerful next to Vision, even more than Thor and Hulk. Her abilities were granted by an infinity stone and those things have been known to grant the power to mow down whole civilizations. Her weakness is her inexperience, she hasn't yet realised her full potential and when she does...well let's just say I wouldn't be shocked if Marvel use her as their alternate version of the Phoenix. Right now though, yeah, she's vulnerably human, but pushed to an extreme...who knows? Just remember that when she felt her brother die, she disintegrated everything around her then went and tor apart vibranium *with her mind*. That's demonstrably stronger than Mjolnir.

And again not sniper proof.

Also note they had the raft all ready to go. What else were they going to use that for besides dealing with non-compliance?

Super villains aka the other reason people are are likely having trust issues with superhumans.

Now, having said that -- the particular actions of the U.N. task force the legitimately-elected democratic governments set up for the Avengers to exercise executive authority through was, itself, engaging in egregious violations of human rights -- vis a vis, their decision to condemn Bucky to death without a trial or due process of law.

That was becuase they were trying to apprehend a notorious uber assassin with Captain America like
abilities, lets not forget how many SHIELD agents he effortlessly took out in Winter Solider. When a guy can wipe out a SWAT team solo I can forgive the cops for deciding lethal force is necessary.

Cap was absolutely right to thwart this, and to continue to protect Bucky after his escape was triggered; the U.N. task force was out to commit murder.

Except they weren't trying to actively kill him anymore after he was taken into custody. In fact Ross wanted him returned alive when he sent Stark after them.

Meanwhile, Agents of SHIELD seems to be implying that the Accords may also require superpowered individuals to register with their national governments. If that is the case, that is a much more troubling law from a civil rights/civil liberties standpoint.

Which is kind of hypocritical of SHIELD to poo poo after using the index for years. Especially since the only thing that could have happened recently enough to change Coulson's position on it was Jiaying's looking for any excuse to start a war with SHIELD as part of her wipe out the humans plan.

Cap would have had a much stronger argument against the Accords if he had framed it as, these people want to put everyone with powers on a list, and they want to commit murder with no regard for human rights or due process of law. "Tony, they want to put us on a 'list.' It wasn't that long ago for me that I got to see what happens when governments put people on 'lists."

1) Again SHIELD \and its Index.

2) That wasn't a requirement in the film, and the TV version is unlikely to affect the films.

3) Again if a guy is known to take out entire SWAT teams effortlessly I can understand the cops not wanting to die so they take the gloves off. Seriously Bucky is an uber death commando that from the sounds of it everyone thought couldn't be turned off, not Trayvon Martin.

Captain America's Avengers refuse to be Registered.

Then he retires. That was the other option.
 
The way the Sokovia Accords were presented in the movie didn't really make it look like they had much to do with the Superhuman Registration Act from the comics as much as just regulating the actions of the Avengers themselves.

But if those Accords were meant to apply to all superheroes, then because they obviously apply to Black Widow, who isn't superpowered, they should apply to Daredevil as well.

They may say enhanced, but they really seem to mean vigilante or villain. Of team Cap, only Wanda, Steve and Bucky are enhanced. The others use weapons or technology.

Of team Iron Man, they just have Vision and Spider-man. Again the others are just weapons or technology.

They would make Daredevil register just because he runs around in a costume.
I have to admit, I was thinking more of how it was presented in AoS, where Talbot really only seemed concerned with Daisy, Lincoln, and the other Inhumans.
 
Isn't that the main theme of the whole movie in CA:TWS?

I can save 7 billion people by sacrificing 200 million.
Thematically similar, but not exactly the same.
'Winter Soldier' put forth the notion that if you try to assert authority by force, people will fight back rather than submit. But if you create a climate of chaos and uncertainty, they'll willingly hand over their freedoms for even the illusion of security.
'Civil War' seems to go with a more insidious approach as it's less about totalitarianism under the pretext of protecting people from themselves and more about persecuting and exploiting minorities on the pretext of protecting people from said minorities.

You could almost say they switched gears from Machtergreifung to Kristallnacht with the Holocaust probably hot on it's heels (remember, it always starts with registration.) Only this time it's not Hydra trying to pull this crap, it's a whole bunch of actual U.N. countries. The scary part is that they actually have a point.
 
Which is kind of hypocritical of SHIELD to poo poo after using the index for years. Especially since the only thing that could have happened recently enough to change Coulson's position on it was Jiaying's looking for any excuse to start a war with SHIELD as part of her wipe out the humans plan.

TALBOT:
You had an index...
COULSON: Which is why I know nothing good ever comes from putting people on lists. Eventually they get misused or fall into the wrong hands, and then innocent people suffer.

What about HYDRA (working from within S.H.I.E.L.D.) seeking to preemptively exterminate those it perceived as threats, and later collecting and stockpiling Inhumans? They had inside men in the Senate and on the World Security Council. Think they wouldn't have people in the U.N.?

What about Daisy's dad using the index to locate and recruit disgruntled powered individuals?

I have to admit, I was thinking more of how it was presented in AoS, where Talbot really only seemed concerned with Daisy, Lincoln, and the other Inhumans.
Talbot was sent by President Ellis specifically to register Coulson's "undocumented" Inhumans. That was his particular mission at the moment.
 
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TALBOT: You had an index...
COULSON: Which is why I know nothing good ever comes from putting people on lists. Eventually they get misused or fall into the wrong hands, and then innocent people suffer.

Which is a concern that comes out of left field seeing as Coulson was just fine using the damned thing before the US wanted to do their own version, now all of a sudden its apparently wrong.

What about HYDRA (working from within S.H.I.E.L.D.) seeking to preemptively exterminate those it perceived as threats,

Which was from an algorithm Zola made unrelated to the Index.

and later collecting and stockpiling Inhumans?

Which was done by the ATCU getting to newly activated inhumans before SHIELD, as well as their own HYDRA voluteers. Again unrelated to the Index.

What about Daisy's dad using the index to locate and recruit disgruntled powered individuals?

Aka the most pathetic supervillain team of all time. Yeah, not exactly a good point, especially since the Index also helped them to know what they were up against. Otherwise it might not have gone so well for SHIELD.

Talbot was sent by President Ellis specifically to register Coulson's "undocumented" Inhumans. That was his particular mission at the moment.

Which makes sense seeing as the rest of the world might get understandably pissy if its found that the US is running its own black ops superhuman team in secret. I'm pretty sure that would be one of the concerns that lead to the Accords.
 
Well, I think Cap saw Watchmen and he doesn't want to be sent to some third world country to facilitate it being a UN protectorate for everyone's good, even if it would be good.

Really, how long would it be before The Avengers are toppling Pyongyang, ISIS, Malta, or Palookastan and other seething beds of criminality?
 
Because they aren't an army.

They aren't the army.

They aren't a dictatorial body that goes around enforcing it's own whims on the greater world.
 
Saw it again yesterday, my wife wanted to see it for her birthday. :)

Anyway, question for those familiar with the comics. After Zemo reactivates Bucky's programming, at one point T'Challa (not in BP costume) catches up to him, and his ring seems to "react" to Bucky's arm. What was that all about?
I don't think its composition was ever specified in his most recent incarnations in the comics, but the implication of the scene seems to be that Bucky's arm and T'Challa's ring were both made of Vibranium (which is found only in Wakanda) and had some sort of interaction with each other. HYDRA must have stolen some at some point, much like Klaw stole the Vibranium that Ultron hijacked for his own improved robot chassis (and Vision's), or they used their infiltration of SHIELD to acquire some of the miniscule stock which went toward Howard Stark making Cap's shield.
 
Anyway, question for those familiar with the comics. After Zemo reactivates Bucky's programming, at one point T'Challa (not in BP costume) catches up to him, and his ring seems to "react" to Bucky's arm. What was that all about?
If there is a comic answer I'm currently unaware of it. I did notice this scene as well.
I took it as, both the WS bionic arm and T'Challa's ring were made out of Vibranium. Vibranium normally abosorbs and eliminates incoming force(see Cap using his shield as a buffer in falls from heights). However, since both were Vibranium a force of repelling(like opposite sides of a magnet) attraction occured.

All purely speculative on my part.
 
I always just naturally assumed Bucky's army was Vibranium. It's a metal object of importance in the Marvel Universe, of course it's made out of Vibranium!
 
Because they aren't an army.

They aren't the army.

They aren't a dictatorial body that goes around enforcing it's own whims on the greater world.

And yet Tony Stark once bragged about successfully privatizing world peace. Kind of implies at lest he was already hitting terrorists after becoming Iron Man. And Cap has already had the Avengers go after Crossbones when he decided to play terrorist. And is there that much of a difference between HYDRA and ISIS.
 
@Hartzilla2007 ,
We and Coulson weren't talking just about S.H.I.E.L.D.'s index specifically, but lists of powered individuals in general and the Sokovia Accords in particular. They aren't "unrelated"; they're all examples of how the assets, intelligence, and operating procedures of authorities set up for ostensibly legitimate and necessary purposes can actually wind up serving the ends of bad guys. And sometimes it turns out those authorities in fact are the bad guys. The good guys in S.H.I.E.L.D. and later the ATCU didn't know they were really doing HYDRA's work. Seeing that scenario unfold not once but multiple times is what changed Coulson's perspective, it didn't come out of the blue.
 
Conventionally, the Vision is unstoppable.

If he decides that he wants change, no one can change that change from changing.

The retirement option in the movie is about retiring from being an Avenger, not retiring from being enhanced. Captain America might be able to side step being a solider for the UN, but he's still a living weapon co-ordinating other living weapons to achieve tasks, who needs to be registered and monitored because he routinely performs mass slaughters globally trying to stop terrorists without coordinating with the local law enforcement or governments.

(Unless he retires to one of the 80 countries that did not sign the Sokovian accords.)

Otherwise, does the world stop the manhunt/war to get Steve Rogers to register, every time he dishonestly says "I retire!" and walks away? Wilfully not registering in the face of registrars has to be a crime, that can't be commuted by saying "I retire", and then not retiring.

Retirement is paperwork if your retirement does not include hiding.
 
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Just because they didn't sign, they might still have expedient extradition treaties.

There are Three Countries in our World not part of the UN.

Vatican City?

Holy shit.

(Literally?)

Talk about a rogue terrorist nation?

If the Avengers are not going to kill for the UN, I doubt that they're going to kill for the Pope, and I doubt that the Vatican would accept and bankroll the Avengers as their new crusaders, until Thor admits that he is not a God.
 
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The membership of the Avengers wouldn'r remain static either. Every Accords signatory would be directing their enhanced to join the Avengers, and the next thing you know, you have a super powered army, at the command of the U.N.

If the U.N. Security Council can agree how to use them, they's be nearly unstoppable.
 
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