Spoilers Canon, Continuity, and Pike's Accident

[Yistaan]

No one here is defending Cumberbatch's casting.

People are trying to make unfortunate defamatory insinuations about my canon concerns with April's casting so if I hit out hard in regards to emphasizing my dislike of Cumberbatch, maybe you'd keep in mind you'd do the same if people were making defamatory remarks implying racism.

For the record, I love Adrian Holmes' performance as April and he hits it out of the ballpark. It destroys suspension of disbelief with TAS, but he does an excellent job. The same cannot be said about Cumberbatch who turns in a cliche and dull performance AND also wrecks suspension of disbelief/canon with Space Seed where Khan is described as Indian.

 

[Hythlodeus]

AND also wrecks suspension of disbelief/canon with Space Seed where Khan is described as Indian.

and was played by Ricardo Montalban who was not Indian. So, Space Seed wrecked its own canon pretty hard from the start

 

[Yistaan]

and was played by Ricardo Montalban who was not Indian. So, Space Seed wrecked its own canon pretty hard from the start

They did "blackface" him a bit I think which unfortunately was considered acceptable back then to try to make him look Indian.

They're finally getting it right with kid Khan in SNW, although strictly speaking I don't know if that child actor is Indian but he looks Indian to me.

 

[HotRod]

Honestly, maybe people on here should say why Benedict Cumberbatch should've gotten the role even though he doesn't fit. I've said enough so let's hear Cumberbatch's defenders explain why his lackluster performance deserved depriving an Indian actor of a job, on top of violating canon as established in Space Seed. It's not like Cumberbatch was hurting for work in other respects.

We could've fit Khan as he was described in canon, gotten a better performance on it, AND given a shot to an actor of color. Ignoring canon doesn't always lead to better results.

It feels my critics are purposely only focusing on the April situation, ignoring everything I said about Cumberbatch Khan, just so they can make defamatory attacks. And I'm calling it out.

I've not heard a single person defend Cumberbatch being cast. Not a one.

That said, he doesn't destroy continuity because they made a point to say he was physically altered. Granted, they wouldn't have needed that line had they cast an actual POC.

Either way, it was a shitty casting choice.

 

[Noname Given]

Honestly, maybe people on here should say why Benedict Cumberbatch should've gotten the role even though he doesn't fit. I've said enough so let's hear Cumberbatch's defenders explain why his lackluster performance deserved depriving an Indian actor of a job, on top of violating canon as established in Space Seed. It's not like Cumberbatch was hurting for work in other respects.

We could've fit Khan as he was described in canon, gotten a better performance on it, AND given a shot to an actor of color. Ignoring canon doesn't always lead to better results.

It feels my critics are purposely only focusing on the April situation, ignoring everything I said about Cumberbatch Khan, just so they can make defamatory attacks. And I'm calling it out.

But...how do you feel about the original casting of a Mexican (Ricardo Montalban) as pretty much an Indian Sikh in the original TOS S1 Space Seed?

 

[Hythlodeus]

I've not heard a single person defend Cumberbatch being cast. Not a one.

That said, he doesn't destroy continuity because they made a point to say he was physically altered. Granted, they wouldn't have needed that line had they cast an actual POC.

Either way, it was a shitty casting choice.

tbf, he wasn't the first choice. or the second. he was the best actor they could get after the actors they wanted declined

 

[Yistaan]

tbf, he wasn't the first choice. or the second. he was the best actor they could get after the actors they wanted declined

That line's been used so many times by studios to hire white actors for lead roles even if the character is a person of color (Disney did the same with making Gyllenhaal the Prince of Persia).

There are so many actors of color looking for work. What the studios mean is they didn't find anyone in the small group of actors they wanted, which are usually oriented towards lighter skin. Mena Massoud for example has been having it rough since Aladdin

 

[Hythlodeus]

That line's been used so many times by studios to hire white actors for lead roles even if the character is a person of color (Disney did the same with making Gyllenhaal the Prince of Persia).

There are so many actors of color looking for work. What the studios mean is they didn't find anyone in the small group of actors they wanted, which are usually oriented towards lighter skin. Mena Massoud's been having it rough since Aladdin

agreed, they wanted some one with name recognition and a certain pedigree and they were on a tigth schedule. if my memory is correct, we heard the Gael Garcia Bernal rumors around the time, one would expect in a production cycle. When Del Toros name leaked it was actually already relatively late in the preproduction process. I absolutely believe it was a panic reaction and last minute decision

 

[Yistaan]

It was also slightly annoying to me that JJ said they couldn't find any good Japanese actors to play Sulu when Takeshi Kaneshiro was literally right there, not that I have anything against John Cho.

 

[fireproof78]

No one here is defending Cumberbatch's casting.

Nope.

It was a terrible choice and though I enjoyed Cumberbatch's performance I would have welcomed an Indian person or no Khan at all. That would be much better.

agreed, they wanted some one with name recognition and a certain pedigree and they were on a tigth schedule. if my memory is correct, we heard the Gael Garcia Bernal rumors around the time, one would expect in a production cycle. When Del Toros name leaked it was actually already relatively late in the preproduction process. I absolutely believe it was a panic reaction and last minute decision

It was. Suddenly their scheduled tightened up because they were so slow with the damn script. Not great management of time or resources there.

 

[Campe]

STID would have been better had Cumberbatch simply played John Harrison, a disgruntled Starfleet Intelligence Officer. The BS magic blood of it all was a pretty poor choice.

 

[Mudd]

I've not heard a single person defend Cumberbatch being cast. Not a one.

He's a great actor. I liked him fine in the part.

 

[fireproof78]

STID would have been better had Cumberbatch simply played John Harrison, a disgruntled Starfleet Intelligence Officer.

Very true.

 

[HotRod]

He's a great actor. I liked him fine in the part.

Oh, I like him just fine. Love Sherlock to death. But he was still miscast, in my opinion.

 

[Ovation]

STID would have been better had Cumberbatch simply played John Harrison, a disgruntled Starfleet Intelligence Officer. The BS magic blood of it all was a pretty poor choice.

Agree that he didn’t have to be Khan. Didn’t care that he was. VEHEMENTLY DISAGREE with “magic blood” complaints. My wife’s company cures otherwise untreatable leukemia with blood therapy, now, today. The “magic blood” element of Into Darkness is arguably the LEAST sci-fi concept in ALL of Trek.

 

[Citiprime]

There's an argument to be had about whitewashing in casting decisions, especially in a Hollywood with a history of casting anyone with brown-ish skin and calling it good enough.

But as far as how that applies to the casting with Khan when it comes to Montalban and Cumberbatch, I'm not sure it does. The very nature of the character as a product of genetic engineering means he may not actually have the background of his surname. Manipulated genetic material could have been from God knows who from God knows where, whether it be Asian, Latino, or European.

Interesting to note, the child cast as Kid Khan for Strange New Worlds comes from a Latino background just like Montalban.

 

[fireproof78]

Agree that he didn’t have to be Khan. Didn’t care that he was. VEHEMENTLY DISAGREE with “magic blood” complaints. My wife’s company cures otherwise untreatable leukemia with blood therapy, now, today. The “magic blood” element of Into Darkness is arguably the LEAST sci-fi concept in ALL of Trek.

Also this but I didn't feel like rehashing that talking point...again.

But as far as how that applies to the casting with Khan when it comes to Montalban and Cumberbatch, I'm not sure it does. The very nature of the character as a product of genetic engineering means he may not actually have the background of his surname. Manipulated genetic material could have been from God knows who from God knows where, whether it be Asian, Latino, or European.

That the original casting was born from poor decisions is not one that should be doubled down on. The whole Sikh thing was ridiculous on its face.

 

[Citiprime]

That the original casting was born from poor decisions is not one that should be doubled down on. The whole Sikh thing was ridiculous on its face.

In "Space Seed," McGivers makes a "guess" about Khan's background and says Khan was "probably a Sikh," but it's left ambiguous and Khan himself never claims to be a Sikh at any point within canon.

Also, Scotty describes Khan's people as "mixed types" who are "Western, mid-European, Latin, Oriental."

 

[fireproof78]

In "Space Seed," McGivers makes a "guess" about Khan's background and says Khan was "probably a Sikh," but it's left ambiguous and Khan himself never claims to be a Sikh at any point within canon.

You are quite correct and yet it persists.

 

[Campe]

Agree that he didn’t have to be Khan. Didn’t care that he was. VEHEMENTLY DISAGREE with “magic blood” complaints. My wife’s company cures otherwise untreatable leukemia with blood therapy, now, today. The “magic blood” element of Into Darkness is arguably the LEAST sci-fi concept in ALL of Trek.

That's very fair. I should have probably not utilized that particular verbage. I more meant the augment storyline. He didn't need to be a genetic superman from the 20th century to get the point across.