Calling All Shippers! Mediation Thread

[Kalen Archer]

That's a good way of dealing with it Ulva.

A few times I've had to grit my teeth and listen to some music for a few minutes before returning.

It's good to take a break from your computer every once in a while anyway!

 

[Spider]

Posted by Kalen Archer:
I think the best solution is to PM someone if they have said something that has upset you or offended you. If that person is unresponsive or unfriendly then maybe approach a more neutral member of the shipper group and ask them to talk to the person in question?

I would gladly talk to an A/Ter that someone felt had gone over the line if it meant our dirty laundry wasn't aired in public so to speak.

I think these ongoing "back and forth", "them versus us" sessions have got to stop. They really hinder my and others enjoyment of the board. It's making us shippers as a whole look not too good, which is a shame.

Commodore Kalen that is a good idea. I am all for peace in the Enterprise forum. We have enough outside detractors coming in here with out us beating up on each other.

 

[indranee]

Posted by Tzigone:
I did see a "wrinkly butt" comment about Archer/SB before the pockmark comment though. Don't remember if it was on this board, for sure, but I think it was. Let's be fair, both sides have done this.

THANK YOU TZIGONE.

For the LAST TIME -- I made that remark IN JEST. and BECAUSE OF THE DAMNED "WRINKLY BUTT" COMMENT MADE JUST BEFORE IT. and no, it was not made in some other thread or some other baord. it was made on this board and in that thread, before what I posted.

you know, I think that I am a pretty fair shipper. at least, I was before all this nastiness of the last few weeks. I have often said that I liked Connor Trinneer and his character (even though some of the newbie Tuckerites and T/T-ers may not remember that because I haven't said so in the last few weeks) and I had some whopping nice discussions with Zane and pookha and T/T and A/T'P.

and I am not just a shipper poster on this board. I like Trek and have been a trekkie long enough to know that 'shipping is tough and sometimes a crock.

but there are two things I just don't get:

1) why is it -- when people can check back on my previous posts and SEE that I have NEVER said a single bad thing about connor trinneer -- they continue to villify .. YES, VILLIFY -- me about that single comment I made about him AFTER a comment (I am assuming, in the same vein) was made about Scott Bakula? I mean my comment hurt some people so damned much that it was brought up AGAIN in this thread in a doubly nasty way? I really don't get it! I mean, what IS it with some people when they can not only NOT take a joke, but have to keep beating a dead horse over and over again?

2) I really resented it when JKLADIS -- who I am told is a "fair and just" moderator -- told me in no uncertain terms that ALL my posts are meant to rile people. I think that in ITSELF is an unfair and "riling" post for a moderator to make.

I mean, what gives here?

and yes, I AM angry and I AM at the end of my tether. I think this is not only a shithole, I think it's the worst forum on this whole board. it's unfair, unjust and poorly moderated. it's disgusted me to the extent that I don't even want to come here anymore.

and yes, that IS my opinion.

 

[indranee]

Posted by DAK:

Posted by commodore64:
Can you agree not to drag someone's name into the mud because I think it's wrong? [Not you specifically, but you in general?]

I can't speak for anyone else, but I have no problem with that. I think it's wrong too.

Seriously, I would like to get specific. I think this thread is around to really dig into the problems. As Frasier would say, "I'm listening."

Okay. This little dig was posted into a Trip/T'Pol thread back on 7/27. I remember it for 2 reasons: 1) It was posted by the same person who made the 'pockmark' comment, and 2) It's the only time I can remember posting in anger to someone.

I think you guys need to see Archer separately from your Trip-worship. this way, you'd get the whole picture, not half, or a quarter.

IMO, this was inappropriate and unwelcome to post in a thread devoted to Trip/T'Pol.

okay, that was me. and I said that not to rile people up, but to provide another perspective on how to see Archer as a character. for example, I freely admit that I "worship" archer. I do. I think he's an incredible character. but if liking/appreciating him so much kept me from "seeing" some other character to the full extent, then I think I'd be well-advised to detach myself from the "Archer-worship" in order to get the "full picture".

if you took my comment in any other, unintended, uncomplimentary way, I am sorry. I do apologize for the remark, in that case.

 

[Zane Gray]

You know... reading the last 15 or 20 posts here, it seems that what people REALLY need to learn to do is hold their tongues on occasion. Trying to be cute, particularly in the OTHER ship's thread, all too often comes off as snide. Whether you have the right to do it or not is beside the point. What usually follows is that everyone jumps in to defend one party or another and it all goes down the drain again.

These situations are pretty silly and are almost always avoidable. This isn't rocket science, guys. The same things seem to keep happening again and again.

 

[Guest]

Boy, this has been interesting, sorry I didn't read every post.

Anyway, I found the perfect solution to my "shipper" issues. I just quit watching ENT.

It wasn't until I came here to this site I even knew what "shipper" meant. I really don't understand it. That's not meant as a disparagement - I just honestly don't understand it.

 

[kitkat]

Posted by Zane Gray:
You know... reading the last 15 or 20 posts here, it seems that what people REALLY need to learn to do is hold their tongues on occasion. Trying to be cute, particularly in the OTHER ship's thread, all too often comes off as snide. Whether you have the right to do it or not is beside the point. What usually follows is that everyone jumps in to defend one party or another and it all goes down the drain again.

These situations are pretty silly and are almost always avoidable. This isn't rocket science, guys. The same things seem to keep happening again and again.

Zane , that was perfectly put and I couldn't agree more.

 

[pookha]

somethings that the poster mean to be taken in jest may not be perceived that way due to the prior tone of the other times one has interacted with the poster..

what i am thinking of is this whole thing between jenna and angie..

last week this happened..

Yes but he is mine! Go play with your boy and leave our man alone!

now yes it was ment in jest but one could also see why it did bother jenna some.
jenna hadnt even mentioned trip in the bakula thread, and she wasnt the only tuckerite in the bakual thread but she was singled out.

and for awhile jenna's feelings were hurt.

then the thing with coming over to the t/t thread and commenting on the signature..

probably the thing of angie's sig shouldnt have come up either but then to comment on a sig that was after all a t/t quote may not have been the best thing either.

and sometimes pm' work and some times the person you pm just goes complainging in open on the board that they are being bothered..

but really before making a jesting comment directed at the other ship ect really think about how they may see it considering the hisory ect..

it is sorta how comedy works joking about stuff among people who share common traits is different then somemone seen as being on the outside saying the same thing.

i hope the above makes some sense..

 

[Blah]

Posted by pookha:
somethings that the poster mean to be taken in jest may not be perceived that way due to the prior tone of the other times one has interacted with the poster..

what i am thinking of is this whole thing between jenna and angie..

last week this happened..

Yes but he is mine! Go play with your boy and leave our man alone!

now yes it was ment in jest but one could also see why it did bother jenna some.
jenna hadnt even mentioned trip in the bakula thread, and she wasnt the only tuckerite in the bakual thread but she was singled out.

and for awhile jenna's feelings were hurt.

then the thing with coming over to the t/t thread and commenting on the signature..

probably the thing of angie's sig shouldnt have come up either but then to comment on a sig that was after all a t/t quote may not have been the best thing either.

and sometimes pm' work and some times the person you pm just goes complainging in open on the board that they are being bothered..

but really before making a jesting comment directed at the other ship ect really think about how they may see it considering the hisory ect..

it is sorta how comedy works joking about stuff among people who share common traits is different then somemone seen as being on the outside saying the same thing.

i hope the above makes some sense..

I totally agree Pookha! This is one of the main problems. You have to consider the history before making a comment in jest. If last week you were upset and made a comment about a person, shipper group or character but this week you wanna make a joke about it..you can't expect people to believe you when you say you're just joking.

 

[DAK]

Posted by indranee:

okay, that was me. and I said that not to rile people up, but to provide another perspective on how to see Archer as a character. for example, I freely admit that I "worship" archer. I do. I think he's an incredible character. but if liking/appreciating him so much kept me from "seeing" some other character to the full extent, then I think I'd be well-advised to detach myself from the "Archer-worship" in order to get the "full picture".

if you took my comment in any other, unintended, uncomplimentary way, I am sorry. I do apologize for the remark, in that case.

Honestly, did you expect to make a lot of friends, or have folks flocking from the Trip thread to the Archer thread, with that remark? I think we're all adult enough to know which character(s) we find attractive.

I stay in the threads that interest me, i.e., those devoted to Trip and T'Pol for the most part. I've met a lot of wonderful people here, and I enjoy the discussions. And guess what? I don't find this place to be a shithole. Maybe if I went looking for trouble and got my butt burned in return I would. I don't understand why people can't stick to the topics that interest them and leave the others the hell alone.

 

[indranee]

Posted by DAK:

Posted by indranee:

okay, that was me. and I said that not to rile people up, but to provide another perspective on how to see Archer as a character. for example, I freely admit that I "worship" archer. I do. I think he's an incredible character. but if liking/appreciating him so much kept me from "seeing" some other character to the full extent, then I think I'd be well-advised to detach myself from the "Archer-worship" in order to get the "full picture".

if you took my comment in any other, unintended, uncomplimentary way, I am sorry. I do apologize for the remark, in that case.

Honestly, did you expect to make a lot of friends, or have folks flocking from the Trip thread to the Archer thread, with that remark? I think we're all adult enough to know which character(s) we find attractive.

I stay in the threads that interest me, i.e., those devoted to Trip and T'Pol for the most part. I've met a lot of wonderful people here, and I enjoy the discussions. And guess what? I don't find this place to be a shithole. Maybe if I went looking for trouble and got my butt burned in return I would. I don't understand why people can't stick to the topics that interest them and leave the others the hell alone.

honestly? I am not here to win any popularity contests or be Ms. Popularity. I come here to gauge the reaction to the show and to my 'ship and to post my opinion. if I find people I like and can have a decent debate with, all the better.

I am a very honest, straightforward, no-pulled punches kinda gal. my point is: if you can't take it, don't dish it out. it seems to me that, on the whole, tuckerites and T/T-ers on this board like to dish it out (with the "Archer is a sexual harrasser" and the "wrinkly SB butt" comments etc), but when it comes to taking it on the chin (like my pockmarked CT butt comment) like the adults we all seem to be, they just can't seem to deal with it.

my point is, if you have a problem with it, go to the moderator, don't use schoolyard tactics and keep making snide remarks about "the person who made the pockmark comment". come off the coy darts and just say my name. you know it, right? (by the way, that was not directed toward you per se).

and my point also is, if you think that I or any other A/T'per has been "unfair" to you or any T/T-er -- you can complain to the mods, but know that it was MOST probably provoked by a similar "attack".

there is a whole lot of finger pointing going on in this thread (and many others but we've apparently taken the lid off the serpent's basket in this thread) in a very passive-aggressive manner. that's what bugs me. it also makes me sad. Enterprise and Trek have a lot of problems right now. these are dark days for the franchise and my heart weeps a bit for it. but it's still just a tv show. not real life. we all have (or could have) a whole lot of REAL problems in our lives that need our energy and attention and focus. in the end, this board, and even Trek, is simply not worth the blood, sweat and tears we (especially we 'shippers) spend on it daily.

finally, if I HAVE hurt someone's feelings either unintentionally or while thinking I was being "cute" or "funny" (sure, I've done that) -- I do apologize. but I am a long time usenet poster (you can google my handle on usenet to know that) and I am just not used to people crying to the teacher when they feel the heat's too high in the kitchen. that's just not me. injustice and unfairness do piss me off. and I have seen both on this forum. but hey, that's life and I come prepared to expect that here or elsewhere. I may rail against it and protest loudly, but in the end, shit happens, you know? thanks for listening.

 

[angie]

I stayed away but you know if one posts nasty comments about an actor or character in one thread then goes to a rage thread for tht character expect some teasing! My comment on calling Archer "our man" was in reference to all the "old" comments--Trip being younger is a "boy". Play on words. Meant to be funny. I forgot one can't joke if it concerns Trip! Jenna and any of you are welcome in the Bakula thread and we joke with each other that way too if you check carefully.

angie

 

[Dorian Thompson]

For crying out loud, Angie, what is with the hostility? We're back to square one. Come to "our" thread. We're intellectual and enlightened. "We" (as opposed to "them") can take a joke. Please. It's the same old crap. People who like Archer are "mature." Fans who like Trip are horny teenagers who can't take a joke. It's all bloody nonsense. Why must it always degenerate into this two warring camps idiocy? Nonsense.

You can't win a pissing contest without a prick. This mediation thread is pointless. With the exception of a few Y chromosomes who wandered in, none of us are equipped to piss on Barbara's fish and fight the battle. Let's just stay away from each other if we can't be nice. That goes for everybody.

 

[angie]

I apologized---I was joking and apologized -- I should remember that when using a non-face to face medium to be more careful. I had used to same joke before and no one was offended. I thought that was what this thread was for to clear up misconceptions.One of those is known Archer fans can't joke about Trip.

 

[pookha]

Posted by indranee:

I am a very honest, straightforward, no-pulled punches kinda gal. my point is: if you can't take it, don't dish it out. it seems to me that, on the whole, tuckerites and T/T-ers on this board like to dish it out (with the "Archer is a sexual harrasser" and the "wrinkly SB butt" comments etc), but when it comes to taking it on the chin (like my pockmarked CT butt comment) like the adults we all seem to be, they just can't seem to deal with it.

or maybe they had to deal with it a lot..
where you here the first year to see some of the nastiness that got directed at the tuckerites..
or know well over the year ago that people some a/t were coming into the tucker posts with things like tucker must die and even some attacks on connor.

really neither side can take the high road on my ship /character has been abused more then your ship/character..

and then both ships/ characters have taken abuse from the bashers in general..

and my point also is, if you think that I or any other A/T'per has been "unfair" to you or any T/T-er -- you can complain to the mods, but know that it was MOST probably provoked by a similar "attack".

and what a vicious circle that has started up over the years..
becuase guess what there are people on the other sides who may be thinking the same thing..

everyone losese track of who attacked whom first..
maybe we all should think of a ship version of chosen realm and let this be your last battlefield,, in both cases who started what got lost..

the important thing is will "you" and i mean collective not specific you will decide not to attack back but rather try other means to deal with it..

guess what being provoked into an attack by another attack isnt a good path to go down.. retaliation by repsonding with another attack isnt going to solve anything.

either ignoring the person, sending them a pm or contact a mod not for the mod to issue a warning but maybe to tell the people to chill a little.

 

[witchie]

Posted by Dorian Thompson:
For crying out loud, Angie, what is with the hostility? We're back to square one. Come to "our" thread. We're intellectual and enlightened. "We" (as opposed to "them") can take a joke. Please. It's the same old crap. People who like Archer are "mature." Fans who like Trip are horny teenagers who can't take a joke. It's all bloody nonsense. Why must it always degenerate into this two warring camps idiocy? Nonsense.

You can't win a pissing contest without a prick. This mediation thread is pointless. With the exception of a few Y chromosomes who wandered in, none of us are equipped to piss on Barbara's fish and fight the battle. Let's just stay away from each other if we can't be nice. That goes for everybody.

Well said, Dorian.

 

[plumtuckered]

To my knowledge, there are only two or three people on each side that seem to openly provoke the "other side" with comments, be it intended or not. Their comments almost always contain a certain level of sarcasm and insult. Most posts I read, though negative toward that "other side", have a lot of thought behind them, some actually are quite eloquent, and they don't anger me in the least even though I may not agree with them.

Unfortunately, I doubt the two or three I see on both sides will ever realize they're doing anything wrong because in their eyes, they're not. They will always point the finger elsewhere. Perhaps if their posts bother someone, that someone should just set the "ignore" function to ignore their posts. Or PM a buddy to vent and keep it off the boards.

 

[Zane Gray]

Posted by plumtuckered:
To my knowledge, there are only two or three people on each side that seem to openly provoke the "other side" with comments, be it intended or not. Their comments almost always contain a certain level of sarcasm and insult. Most posts I read, though negative toward that "other side", have a lot of thought behind them, some actually are quite eloquent, and they don't anger me in the least even though I may not agree with them.

Unfortunately, I doubt the two or three I see on both sides will ever realize they're doing anything wrong because in their eyes, they're not. They will always point the finger elsewhere. Perhaps if their posts bother someone, that someone should just set the "ignore" function to ignore their posts. Or PM a buddy to vent and keep it off the boards.

Sad but true, the worst offenders never seem to get it and are rarely able to take responsibility for their actions.

 

[I Love Chakotay]

I'm not in the T/T camp or the A/T camp, but I thought this (ie: the voice of experience) might help you guys put some of this in perspective :

I'm a huge Voyager Janeway/Chakotay fan. Have been from day one. I used to get into hot 'discussions' with Janeway/Seven fans, I guess because it goes with any 'shipper territory, and I've come to the conclusion that the only winners are the writers/producers who lap it up like ratings gravy. You think they don't know how to keep all factions hooked and hoping (and fighting) for years without actually following through by now? They're old hands are whipping up this sort of tension with their storylines. Yank this group's chain, yank that groups chain - stand back and watch the fur fly on the bbs boards. You can't buy publicity or ego-stroking like that!

But, lookit, Voy's long over and did either the J/C fans or the J/7 fans get what they were expecting after all that fighting and bitching? Nope.

Did the Picard/Crusher fans, the Troi/Worf fans, and the Troi/Riker fans get what they were expecting at the end the TNG series? Nope. Okay, so they got Riker/Troi in the movies, but they had to wait a very long time for it in Trek's most successful incarnation. Will Ent fans have the same chance at a payoff? I dunno.


All that past in-fighting and temper tantrum stuff was for nothing. All it did was give the writers and the execs an ego boost and a few more chain-yanking story ideas.

Over in the Voy forum now we 'shippers still stand by our obsessions I think, but there's a definite live n let live feeling there now, imho. A feeling that people are entitled to like what they like and it's nobodies job to try and persuade them to like something else, or rubbish their 'ship. So, all things pass, and when the dust settles things look different. Just something to keep in mind, maybe? Hope it helps

 

['Shippy]

^ Nice thoughts I Love Chakotay.

As I’ve said before in this thread, I like the idea of trying to find solutions to ‘shippy problems. But, I think it can be done without citing specific incidents. I realized I had been talking about that, and not really doing it - coming up with a list of problems and solutions. I liked Zane's list and he probably did this better than me. Some people have already brought some of these up.

Sorry if I sound too much like a report outline.

1. Shippy threads: If a poster is there to post positive comments and not flame the posters within the thread, I think they should be welcomed. Not everyone from an opposite ‘ship group goes into the opposite ‘ship group thread to be negative. The person may just be coming in to spread a little good will.

If that person is there and says negative things about the threads ‘ship, posters, etc… A person in that ‘ship thread might want to point out to the poster, without sinking to bashing them, that they are in a ‘ship rage thread, and that negative posts about the ‘ship, posters, etc. aren’t welcome. Notifying the moderator is another option, if a post breaks board rules. If the poster can accept PMs, someone could pm them and politely explain the problem.

2. The __ vs. __ ‘ship threads: ‘Ship because people like their ‘ships. When something negative about their ‘ship is posted, posters may post back defending their ‘ship. I’ve seen many of these threads go beyond just debating to heated arguing: name-calling, ‘ship bashing, etc. What’s the point in heated arguing? Neither side is going to concede or convert.

3. Lumping people together in one group. People from a ‘ship group don’t ALL think alike. Some of them like their couple as friendship. Some like them romantically. And there are many more differences than just those.

4. ‘Shippers don’t agree on ‘ship, that’s one small thing. I look at the difference as not a bad thing but a good thing: T/T’Pers like the interaction between their couple. A/T’Pers like the interaction between their couple. Neither group is wrong. Both groups enjoy the characters and show enough to like their couple. We have more in common than we think.

5. Reading between the lines of posts. Did a poster really mean that? Or is it reading between the lines and seeing what you think the poster means.

6. Bad things have happened between the ‘ships in the past, maybe it’s time to let go and stop carrying around baggage from things that happened. People from both sides have had a part in it. Not everyone has participated, but it has affected more than just the people doing it.

7. Bringing up things from the past in a debate/argument. People and opinions change. People might say something one time, and change their opinion later. People also change for better and for worse.

What I do when responding to a post that offends me. I don’t know if it would work for anyone else, this is just what I do.

If a posts stands out as offensive, I reread it. Is that really what the person said, or am I reading it wrong? The poster may or may not have known that what they posted would offend someone. Different people have different ideas about what is offensive.

Is the offensive post worth getting upset over? Am I overreacting? If I go and have a cup of tea, will the post still seem as offensive?

If I think the poster intentionally posted the “offensive” post to bait me, I don’t want to give them their desired response. Why should I? I could instead calmly debate their points, and not sink to name-calling. Or, I could ignore their post and/or take other actions.

Is the post breaking board rules? If yes, I can notify mod. But is the offensive thing something big enough to notify the mods about? I could politely bring it up in thread or in a pm with the person. Or I could just let it go.