Calling All Shippers! Mediation Thread

[dmleo]

Posted by indranee:

how about this? I promise not to preach A/T'P in the T/T thread. but if I see Archer being lynched (my fave character), I will say something. NOT rude, NOT "baiting", but SOMEthing. but I will be poilte and keep it to a minimum of posts and only answer the nice replies.

It's one thing for Pookha, who likes Archer, to defend him when some of us start to criticize him, it's a whole different issue when a die-hard T/T hater comes into our thread to defend Archer. Personally, I don't like it and I don't feel that it's in any way productive. To me, it's all baiting.

I don't care if you slam Trip in the A/T thread and don't feel the need to defend him in your turf.

 

['Shippy]

Posted by Ulva:

Posted by 'Shippy:
Maybe I should change my holding back. If I can state my opinion respectfully, and be open to debating it, I see no reason not to express it in non-rage threads.

You're quite right.

I choose many times to just read what other people say and not say anything just because I don't want to add fuel to a fire so to speak. I'm trying to choose my words well but you can't always win. At one point or another someone will get worked up about what I say.

I will continue to hold on to this behavior because I honestly doesn't have to 'hit anyone over the head' with my opinion or preference. On the other hand I see no point in a discussion if there is no wiggleroom. If there is nothing about a topic two people can agree on I fail to see any good in discussing it because neither will listen and nothing would have been gained from it. Then it's better to just agree to disagree and find other things to discuss.

That's usually what I try to do. I'm going to still be nice and respectful to posters. What I was trying to say is if, for example, a S3 crew character development thread opened up, I could respectfully express my feelings about Trip's development in S3.

One thing that has bugged me (this isn't related to Archer or Trip raging or non-raging.) is about opinions.
I saw a bumper sticker recently "If you're not outraged, your're not paying attention." I laughed at it.

I don't like stuff like "Pay attention, you'll see you're wrong, and that Phlox is really _____." "My opinion about ?/? is right, how can you not see it?"

IMO Trekbbs is about debating opinions. Just because an opinion is yours, doesn't make it fact. Just because an opinon is someone else's doesn't make it false.

Very true indeed. And it doesn't make people who holds a different opinion than your self bad people either.

Amen. There are quite a few people from the T/T crowd that I think are cool people. I doesn't matter that we disagree on a little thing like who's interaction with T'Pol we like better.

And it is little, IMO. I still believe we can respectfully debate opinions and interact around here WITHOUT name calling and other "getting personal" stuff.

I remember an relevant site. The Mannerly Art of Disagreement by Macedon the rules of engagement section covers a lot of what's been said here. It's a quick read. (His ST fic is excellent as well).

 

[Ulva]

Posted by 'Shippy:
That's usually what I try to do. I'm going to still be nice and respectful to posters. What I was trying to say is if, for example, a S3 crew character development thread opened up, I could respectfully express my feelings about Trip's development in S3.

Oh, I understood you completely and I didn't think you would stop being respectful. I just don't think I will try and change in the future. We'll see.

 

[indranee]

hoshisis, relax, I didn't mean anything by it. I picked your name because I'd re-watched your vid just before posting, and your name sprang to mind.

 

[Hoshi's sis]

No worries - were cool

 

[jkladis]

I think we're nearing a close to this thread. Of course, I think a lot of emotion has poured out from some you in here. We sympathize with you and your frustrations, and we really appreciate the efforts made by the participants. Although a unanimous agreement by all involved parties may be a pipe dream, we can certainly try. Ultimately, I kind of look at this as a collection of data.

In the end, we have to lay down law. To that end, we are currently convening on how to act on these escalated and heated shipper debates, so bare that in mind for a little while. We've recently exchanged private messages with a number of you, and that's part of the reason we need to wrap this up. There are numerous complaints on some rather innocuous posts (but not quite so to others, if you catch our drift ). Rules of conduct must be established. Expect something from Top41 and/or myself in a fairly short time.

I want to remind people that if you find a post that boils your blood, let us immediately know via the "Notify Mod" button. I'm getting a lot of "after the fact" complaints via PM. Meaning, people are replying to things that anger them with additional counter-productive posting, then pointing out who allegedly started it, afterwards. I can safely say that it doesn't help.

Anyway, just some thoughts and a reminder that we're working on something more definitive.

 

[Tzigone]

Posted by commodore64:

Posted by dmleo:
Pookha, the bottom line is that fans posting in the Trip/T'Pol rage thread don't want to be told of how special the A/T relationship is. Whatever understanding Quills and Zane have with the A/T camp in terms of their posting habits has nothing to do with Indranee's comments.

A lot of folks are rather tired of the same old argument that Trip/T'Pol came out of nowhere and that A/T are the ones with the special bond, especially if this opinion is being expressed in a T/T thread.

I almost want to read the T/T'P thread, just to see what everyone is talking about.

Whatever understanding ...? Isn't a well-reasoned logical debate important no matter where you are in the TrekBBS?

Zane and Quills never get the invite to come hang out, they pop in from time-to-time of their own accord. But, so has LL, Lady Di and a few others. I personally don't care who comes into the A/T'P thread, as long as:
1) They have something interesting to say.
2) They're nice and respectful.

LL -- good stuff to say and awesome avatar! Baiting is sometimes perception. Wouldn't it be nice if everyone assumed the best? I would rather get a post -- "Do you know this baits us?" rather than "You're baiting us, you evil C64!"

Blah said
Indranee came into the T/T thread to defend Archer against the T/Ter's..a little off topic but fine.

This brings up something I don't think we can really come to agreement on. I've seen the following logic from some Tuckerites.
1) Archerites or T'Polians may never make fun of Tucker. Trip is sacred.
2) Archer is fair game. In fact, it's okay to hate him and say so ... a lot.
3) We can say whatever we want to about T'Pol, too.

I'm not trying to bait you, this is actually how it feels on this side of the ENT divide.

I'm a T/Ter and you are free not to like Tucker or to complain about him. What I cannot abide are ignorant or blatantly false statements (usally referrring to his intellignce and making frankly prejudice and blanket statements about people from the South). I'm from the south and it bugs me.

You don't think he's interesting; fine. You think he's stupid or immoral or unethical then back it up with examples from the episodes. I always back up my "Archer-bashing" statements (which I almost never had before season 3 and I believe are entirely justified).

I freely aknowledge there are Tuckerites out there who cannot hear one negative word about Trip. But there are Archerites out there like that too (though perhaps not as many probably not as recently). Those groups are both wrong, IMO, because they do not permit discussion.

 

[angie]

Tzig---

Good points but sadly there are more of the people you acknowledge that can't hear a word against Trip than those like yourself who say say it but back it up. To me it is appeal ---he doesn't appeal to me looks wise or as a character. I like Trip and Malcolm scenes. I loved Dawn. Do I have proof why I don't think he is in a league with Geordi or Scotty---no not one ounce. I am originally from Oklahoma and live in southern California two place ridiculed alot, when I say I don't like Trip and think he is no match for T'Pol it is not a southern slam.Interesting when CT does it no one discusses it but when Jolene Blalock does it all hell breaks loose! Appeal is something that can't be proved---I didn't find Bakula appealing in QL(still don't). How a character comes across is the same thing--the viewer's reaction can't always be "proved".

 

[Darlah Nahan Halrad]

I agree with much of what your saying, Angie, but must you bring up the "Jolene vs. The Tuckerettes" thing...again? Must you reopen that wound? It's been argued to death. Besides, If I recall both sides were responsible for the "hell that broke loose". The (misguided IMHO) Trip/T'Pol fans who overreacted to Jolene's comments and the (Spoiler-Resentment fueled) Archer/T'Pol people who made it a holy mission to punish them for it.

 

[angie]

Darlah---my point is that when CT said in early interviews that he didn't like the hick accent etc all was quiet---he wasn't insulting southerners.

 

[witchie]

Posted by angie:
Darlah---my point is that when CT said in early interviews that he didn't like the hick accent etc all was quiet---he wasn't insulting southerners.

Take it from someone who lives in the South, who knows people w/ thick Southern accents, H'wood can't write Southern without making it painfully clear they aren't from the region. They go overboard, and Connor was absolutely right to tell them to tone it down, especially since Trip hails from Florida. That wasn't a slap to Southerners. He was actually doing us a favor.

 

[Jenna]

Posted by angie:
Darlah---my point is that when CT said in early interviews that he didn't like the hick accent etc all was quiet---he wasn't insulting southerners.

He also said he didn't know Trip was from Florida when he put on the accent, which I think may have had something to do with his later discomfort with it. I think he was envisioning "southern" as in Alabama, Mississippi, Georgia, etc. Florida has a different connotation for me, but, that's just me.

Anyway, it's beside the point.

 

[pookha]

Posted by Jenna:

Posted by angie:
Darlah---my point is that when CT said in early interviews that he didn't like the hick accent etc all was quiet---he wasn't insulting southerners.

He also said he didn't know Trip was from Florida when he put on the accent, which I think may have had something to do with his later discomfort with it. I think he was envisioning "southern" as in Alabama, Mississippi, Georgia, etc. Florida has a different connotation for me, but, that's just me.

Anyway, it's beside the point.

i never heard that quote..

he based the accent on some family in arkansas .

but really florida even now is an immigration state where people come from all across the country and elsewhere.

so it still can fit.

actually connor wasnt concerned that he was too southern but rather that trip be a smart southren.

he didnt want them to play to a certain stereotype ..

but rather as the smart engineer from the south that trip would be..

 

[Jenna]

Someone posted a video of CT that they'd taken at a con. I don't know which one, but he said something along the lines that he hadn't known Trip's history, and had just been told he was from the "south" in general. Heck, the writers probably didn't know his history either at that point.

But yeah, so I guess since I can't show you the talk he gave you'll have to trust my CT memory.

 

[angie]

So basically like Jolene Blalock he was concerned about his character's integrity which is a good thing for both actors.

 

[kitkat]

I'm only going to jump in here on the accent discussion because I am from Florida....born and raised in Tallahassee. My family, friends and I ALL sound just like Trip.

If you go down to Miami, West Palm and such, people talk with Northern accents because a lot of people down there are from the North.

 

[commodore64]

What I cannot abide are ignorant or blatantly false statements (usally referrring to his intellignce and making frankly prejudice and blanket statements about people from the South). I'm from the south and it bugs me.

You know what? I'm from the South too! I lived in Miami for about 9 years and then in Texas (Dallas, Houston and College Station) for roughly 15. So, even though I live in Portland, I have respect for Southerners -- they are not all rednecked jerks. Some are, however -- and that needs to be said, too. Just like there are jerks from the Midwest, West Coast and East Coast.

You don't think he's interesting; fine. You think he's stupid or immoral or unethical then back it up with examples from the episodes. I always back up my "Archer-bashing" statements (which I almost never had before season 3 and I believe are entirely justified).

So, by saying, "he's the worst engineer we've seen in any Star Trek. I don't know why they have him aboard. What an idiot. He can't do anything in Engineering right and always blows up the ship when he's in charge" would be the right thing to do?

See, I don't think that's fair either. If I said, "I'm not sure I think he's that great of engineer because he's never in Engineering" -- that's better. But, I still think the comments made over and over aren't fair either.

I guess I'm talking about extremes and I'm sad I'm not being clear enough for you guys to.

I freely aknowledge there are Tuckerites out there who cannot hear one negative word about Trip. But there are Archerites out there like that too (though perhaps not as many probably not as recently).

I think we're VERY tolerant of anti-Archer statements. You guys (whichever ones this applies to) say them a lot and with such extremes. It becomes demoralizing after a while.

"I wish they wouldn't give us more heroics from Archer. I personally think it makes everyone else look incompetent," is okay. I think I'm paraphrasing Zane, but I think that's fair criticism.

What's not is, "He's the worst captain in every Trek -- they are so obviously trying to save his paltry character. I hate him and wish he would die."

Now, just like my engineering example, can't you look at those two statements and be more objective about one than the other? Now imagine the same one person saying the "worst captain" bit over and over and over. And imagine the people who are already angry that Archer saves the day (and they don't care for his character) join in and give a few "fucking hate Archers" and what not.

Can you understand how that would quickly make us angry? Then, imagine a person who likes both Trip and Archer, and hangs out at the HT occasionally, says, "Wow! They've having a naming contest at HoT to see what Archer's super name is since you obviously weren't bothered by the other names."

These things add up. It's not one comment or one person, it's usually a plethora of comments by various people that happens repeatedly.

Unfortunately, having you go for our jugulars makes me want to go for yours. This was my point to pookha about escalation. At some point it has to stop.

I do think, believe it or not, we've been trying to be civil to Tuckerites in other threads. But, there's only so much cheek turning a person can do.

I thought the very point of this thread is to live in harmony -- a world where it's okay to like Tucker and Archer. By the comments made back to me thus far, I think the truth is: it's okay to love Tucker and anything bad said about Archer, no matter how extreme or said over and over, is okay, too.

I don't like that. I think it's unfair. I wish it would stop.

From the mods:

CRITICS--Discuss, but don't troll those happy about renewal.

and

However, let us not forget that this does not give said fans the right to troll, insult or cause disruption to threads and posts they might disagree with. Do not lash back at criticism simply because you disagree with it.

The Spoilers 9 thread was people excited about episode 8. A few Tuckerites came in and trolled those excited about the episode, including insulting a few members.

I think that's unfair.

Also, I don't remember trolling your episode 3 therapy thread. Instead, I created a therapy to the therapy thread to let you guys grouse about episode 3, while I talked about how happy I was we'd be seeing Vulcan and Koss (seeing Koss I think is a cool concept).

 

[witchie]

Commie, I agree with everything, except the stuff about HoT. That's a separate sanctuary for all things Trip. Archer fans, Mal fans, and T'Pol fans have to give way to the Tucker love. No apologies should be made for that. I'm sorry you feel your position isn't appreciated and understood b/c it is, at least w/ me and others. But not everyone follows your way of thinking. It's unfortunate we're even discussing this when none of these characters are actually real people.

 

[commodore64]

Witchie! Agreed -- these are only characters! I guess that's why I'm more tolerant. If you guys were making fun of my friend, I'd resort to name calling.

And, if HoT is the place to talk about Archer, then I suppose we have to allow people to really diss Trip on the Logical Choice Forum. Seems like kind of a shame.

 

[witchie]

Now, don't get me in trouble w/ Myst and Bucky. They talk about all the relationships on HoT. But if it really bothers you, PM one of them. They've been very understanding when I've had a problem.

And yeah...there'd be name calling and hair pulling if we were talking about a friend of mine. Might even have some girly slaps going on. Just kidding.