Burning Dreams

[Warped9]

^^ I was responding to an earlier comment upthread that the poster thought BD was a book for those who usually didn't read Trek books. BD is very much a character piece, a biography for the most part that (so far) offers up nothing other than the central figure picking over his tortured soul. This isn't a revealing of character within the context of a larger story, but rather just a padded character study.

 

[Naraht]

Trent Roman said:

Warped9 said:
And I think it is very much a Trek book for contemporary Trek fans (...)

As opposed to...? Wouldn't make much sense for Pocket to be making Trek books for contemporary My Little Pony fans or somesuch.

But it might well make sense for Pocket books to create books aimed at fans of non-contemporary Trek.

 

[Therin of Andor]

Warped9 said:
I did smile over the cute reference to Spider Robinson's Callahan's bar though.

Or was it simply "The Captain's Table", which is the ST novels' version, inspired by those other mystical bars of SF?

 

[Therin of Andor]

Naraht said:
But it might well make sense for Pocket books to create books aimed at fans of non-contemporary Trek.

And they do.

 

[Elemental]

I see this thread is drifting a little from it's original topic but I just wanted to say that sometimes with literature a particular scene in a particular book tends to stick with you and be a very vivid image in your memory; and that one of those for me has been

Spoiler: BD

the scene at the end on Talos IV where Spock watches the larger than life video of Pike in the new city him and Vina created after they have already passed on. This is a picture perfect closing for the book as well as Pike's character in my mind and I just wanted to make sure I payed credit to this since it's the very sort of reason I started into Trek lit in the first place.

:thumbsup:

 

[Warped9]

Warped9 said:
*Sigh*

I'm halfway through BD as of this afternoon and I'm sad to say that while this is written decently enough it just doesn't have the adventurous feel of Final Frontier. And I think it is very much a Trek book for contemporary Trek fans because so far it's not really a Star Trek adventure about something, but really just a character examination. So far MWB has simply extrapolated on Pike's character from what little is known of him from "The Cage" and set herself to explore the scabs on his soul. I did smile over the cute reference to Spider Robinson's Callahan's bar though.

I hope it gets better but I'm not optimistic.

I finished this off this morning and damning myself a fool for having even a remote sliver of optimism. This is pretty well nothing but introspective character angst. As a young Clark story it would fit seamlessly into Smallville. There is so little heroic or strange new worlds or even extrapolating from anything in tv Trek. The continuity references are few, but even they come accross as being invoked by rote and with little extra substance added. This is very much a contemporary touchy-feely Trek story to the point I half expected to find Deanna Troi popping up somewhere in it. The one sliver of interest were the reptillian Kan'es species, but we only see something of them for a few pages and then it's back to more character angst and mostly mundane small talk between characters. There is so little of substance in this work it's truly disheartening. When I was finished I literally tossed the book to the floor in disgust.

This was supposed to be a definitive Pike novel? The only definitive thing about it is it is definitively mundane. MWB's interpretation of PIke is just of a tortured soul endlessly picking over the scabs of that soul. Yeesh! This is pure emotion porn for the soap opera crowd.

I'm even considering throwing the book in the trash as a tangible reminder of the money and effort I've practically thrown away. Yuch!

 

[garamet]

Warped9 said:

I'm even considering throwing the book in the trash as a tangible reminder of the money and effort I've practically thrown away. Yuch!

Would you consider donating it to your local library or Goodwill instead?

 

[letmehelp]

This is pretty well nothing but introspective character angst.

I couldn't disagree more with your assessment of Burning Dreams. I guess that a novel could have been written about the first contacts that Pike made and the battles that he fought, but, in my opinion, that wouldn't be a novel that examined what makes Pike such an interesting, enduring character. The short glimpses of Pike's personality that we saw onscreen showed him to be a much more introspective officer than any of the captains that followed him (the conversation with his CMO in his cabin is the best example of this). What I saw in The Cage and The Menagerie was a captain who agonized over decisions, who tried to maintain emotional distance from his crew but felt a great responsibility for them, who was a natural leader but never quite felt comfortable leading.

For me, this novel had to be introspective. It had to be about the conflicts that Pike wages inside himself, not in space, and, in my opinion, it succeeds.

 

[Warped9]

garamet said:

Warped9 said:

I'm even considering throwing the book in the trash as a tangible reminder of the money and effort I've practically thrown away. Yuch!

Would you consider donating it to your local library or Goodwill instead?

I usually do donate books I no longer want to the local public library. I may eventually do that with BD, but I haven't decided whether I'd actually wish to inflict anyone else with this. This isn't a genuine Star Trek story even remotely in the tradition of TOS or earlier TOS novels. This is just unadulterated character angst and emotion porn.

 

[William Leisner]

^ And of course, there's no way anyone else could enjoy it, since that would mean your opinion does not reflect an absolute universal truth.

 

[Warped9]

William Leisner said:
^ And of course, there's no way anyone else could enjoy it, since that would mean your opinion does not reflect an absolute universal truth.

Actually if you're a TNG, DS9, VOY and or ENT fan then this may well appeal to you. TOS was a space adventure drama series rooted solidly in science fiction, not soap opera, and there's very little space adventure drama in this book. It could well appeal to shippers who are probably naturals for this kind of stuff.

And once again I fully expect to be the lone dissenting voice that doesn't instinctly embrace whatever Pocket Books deems to throw our way.

 

[Nerys Myk]

Nah, Star Trek was a drama that used the settings of space exploration and science fiction to explore the moral and philosophical issues that face humanity.

Pike was a very angst driven character. That much is obvious to anyone veiwing "The Cage".

 

[Warped9]

MWB took what little was seen in "The Cage" and blew it WAY out of proportion.

 

[William Leisner]

Warped9 said:
Actually if you're a TNG, DS9, VOY and or ENT fan then this may well appeal to you.

Well, then, you can "subject" those fans to the book without any worries, can't you?

Hell, there may even be some TOS fans whose reading tastes managed to mature in the past quarter-century...

 

[Warped9]

^^ Yes, there may well be. Particularly those of the hurt/comfort crowd. Then again I've never really considered them Star Trek fans, right along with the slash fans, but that's my opinion. And shame on me for expressing it. One should remember around here that if you don't by reflex embrace everything post TOS and you accept Star Trek as science fiction then you're not a true Star Trek fan.

Just too funny.

 

[A beaker full of death]

Nerys Myk said:
Pike was a very angst driven character. That much is obvious to anyone veiwing "The Cage".

I'd say it's very hard to conclude anything about Pike from the glimpse of his life we saw in The Cage.

Something that sets The Cage apart from the rest of Trek is that Pike was the dramatic hero of that story (I mean this in the literary technical sense). Captain Kirk was not generally the hero of most of the episodes of Star Trek, and there's a very good reason for that: a dramatic hero changes during the course of the story. Remember, TOS was episodic. Each story stood on its own. Thus, Kirk COULDN'T be the hero of most of the stories. You just can't rip a character's guts out and put him through a personal hell every week. Khan, Decker, Kodos - they were the heroes of their stories.

In The Cage, Pike IS the hero, and he's in the middle of going through hell when we join him. This is a very interesting way to kick off a series; it gives us entre into the character without having to put him through hell all the time. It gives us an early look at what makes him tick, puts that to rest, and then lets us move on with a series (this is why The Naked Time was such an early episode -- show us the characters' guts, get that out of the way, and start telling some stories).

Pike's Naked Time was his conversation with the doctor. His time in the cage got him through this time of crisis. I think the Pike we'd have seen in the series is very much the one at the end of the episode: "What is this, number one, a cadet ship? Let's get underway!"

Remember, Captain Kirk didn't sit around and mope either - yet that's where we find him at the beginning of TWOK. TWOK was Kirk's Cage, and he wasn't like that before or after.

 

[Nerys Myk]

You crack me me Warped9. You tell us who you don't consider Star trek fans and then make up a reason why folks "around here" think you're not a "true" Star Trek fan.

 

[David R. George III]

Warped9 said:

^^ Yes, there may well be. Particularly those of the hurt/comfort crowd. Then again I've never really considered them Star Trek fans, right along with the slash fans, but that's my opinion. And shame on me for expressing it. One should remember around here that if you don't by reflex embrace everything post TOS and you accept Star Trek as science fiction then you're not a true Star Trek fan.

Just too funny.

You know, I have to say that I find your attitude pretty arrogant. You really seem to be concluding that any fans who do not agree with you--who for example actually enjoyed Burning Dreams--are either not "true" fans or are just plain wrong. You also appear to be saying that anybody who likes a Trek book that you do not does not like it for any intrinsic value perceived in the book by that reader, but because they are falling in lockstep with Pocket Books. For me, you undermine your own opinions with this sort of talk. I don't object to your opinion, but to your apparent objection to other people's opinions.

Here's the thing. There have been plenty of readers on this board who have lambasted my work. I've received both reasoned criticisms and the "it sucks" kind. For me, both are equally valid. Do I wish that every single reader loved my writing? Of course. But I don't take it personally when somebody doesn't, and I don't need somebody to point out precisely why they think I failed in my task; if they simply thought it was awful, well, there's nothing wrong with that opinion. I would, however, take exception to somebody who hated my work suggesting that nobody else could enjoy it, or that anybody who did couldn't possibly be a "true" Trek fan.

I haven't read Burning Dreams yet, but I expect that I will enjoy it, particularly the way that you're describing it. I prefer character pieces to space adventure. That's simply my taste. I could explain why that appeals to me, but I shouldn't have to any more than you should have to explain why you like space adventures more than character pieces. Perhaps you will now consider me not a "true" Trek fan, but isn't that an extremely narrow view? I'm not trying to convince you that you should try to find some reason to enjoy Margaret's writing--or my own, which I suspect you also wouldn't find to your taste. You are entitled to your opinion, and for you, for your own tastes and sensibilities, you are one-hundred percent correct. I just don't think you should take others to task or question their motives if they happen to disagree with you.

You know, there are some very famous and wealthy writers in the world today whose work I do not like in the slightest. And yet literally millions of other people love these writers' works. I'm not a big fan of Picasso, either, while I love Monet. I'm sure there are plenty of people who feel the opposite. Am I right? Are they? Yeah, we all are right, in terms of what we like or dislike for ourselves. But our opinions are subjective to our own personalities, and that's the way it should be.

The primary reason that Star Trek has always appealed to me is its messages of diversity and inclusion. And I guess that's what I'm talking about here. It takes all kinds--inlcuding those who like Burning Dreams and those who don't.

 

[Warped9]

There are Trek fans of different stripes--I can't deny they exist--but that doesn't mean I have to agree with their take on it.

I'm only arrogant in the sense I know my own mind and don't apologize for it. This is no different than expressing the fact I absolutely loathe rap and hip-hop. To me it isn't music in the least but just mindless shit that grates on my nerves. I can't ignore the fact that many people still listen to it even if I think their taste in music is crap.

And if you were in my neighbourhood I'd happily give you my copy of BD. Despite my disappointment it hasn't got a mark or crease on it.

 

[Nerys Myk]

NO you are arrogent because of the way you disparage those who diagree with you. No one is asking you to change your mind, just to practice a little IDIC when dicusing views that are different than your own.