Buffy the Vampire Slayer/Angel - First Time Viewer

[tomalak301]

@tomalak301, I'm pretty impressed how well you seem to have managed to avoid spoilers for Buffy and Angel. I usually read about shows before I start them, so I tend to have at least some idea of most of the major plot points a show hits over the years before I even watch the first episodes. I try to avoid story details, but I usually at least end up finding out who lives, who dies, who turns good or bad, who leaves, and other big plot points like that.

Thanks

I did read some spoilers of things coming up (especially trying to find a good viewing guide to use) but I don't really want to bring it up until I see that episode. The whole reason I started watching Buffy was because of everyone I know, online and otherwise, recommending the series as this iconic late 1990s early 2000s show and it's been something I've been wanting to see for a few years. Also, this is the era (1995-2005) where I think Sci Fi/fantasy was at it's absolute best, with shows like Farscape, DS9, Babylon 5, and a few others so I'm not surprised Buffy is fitting that mold nicely.

 

[Mr. Adventure]

Useless trivia, but the real band behind Shy was called T.H.C"

Please tell me they were in that anti-drug episode.

 

[tomalak301]

Hush

Innocence is my favorite episode of the series, mainly because of the emotional roller coaster of emotions that that 45 minutes provided. Hush might have just tied it, or come in at number 2

This episode was amazing, and I don't think I've ever seen any other episode of any series do what this episode just pulled off. They told an amazing story with no dialogue, only actions and music. Not only did they tell this story, they actually advanced many of season 4's plot points (Willow progressing in her learning of the dark arts, Buffy and Reily finding out who each other really are, etc.). The Gentleman were creepy as hell, and I could actually point out Doug Jones right away. The way he moved, mainly the way he walked and his head, almost feel like what inspired Suru on Discovery because they are almost the exact same movements. You have the swaying head, the swinging arms, and then the other members of The Gentlemen are just as creepy and yes I would say they are one of the best conceived monsters on this series we have seen.

I actually can't believe the guts this series had to pull off an episode like this. The music has to be spot on, and it was. The characters movements and expressions have to be spot on and they were. I mean an episode like this should be seen in film classes to really get an idea of the importance of music and direction. The writers were almost able to take a week off here, but everyone else had to step up their game and in doing so, they did one of the most creative, inspired, and absolute amazing episodes this series has ever had.

 

[CorporalClegg]

I mean an episode like this should be seen in film classes.

It is.

It's the first of the 'big four.' That is episodes where Whedon pretty much set it upon himself to see if he could actually do it. (The musical being another, obviously.) It was in response to how there were a lot of remarks about the show along the lines of "It's only good because of the dialog." The actors (especially SMG) say it's the hardest work they've ever had to do. Despite it being the series's only episode nominated of the for an Emmy, it's generally considered the weakest of the four. But I'll let you judge.

I do have a long-running theory, one that exists only in my brain and for which no real evidence exists. See, I've long believed the Joss's idea for the episode was inspired by Pink Floyd's "Keep Talking." I mean the theme of the song and the theme of the episode are more or less identical. And I've always felt that Giles's joke at the end was kind of random and out of nowhere.

Then there are things like Walsh's text to speech. By the turn of the millennium, there was a pretty wide array of digital voices available. Not to mention, it makes more sense of them to come up with their own sci-fi sounding digital or computer voice with an actor. But they went with the one that's iconically associated with Hawking. And it's hard to look at that final closing shot and not be reminded of The Division Bell album art.

And it's not totally implausible either. The song was still in fairly heavy rotation on most rock radio in '99. So he could have easily heard it on the radio on the way home from work and the light bulb went on.

 

[tomalak301]

It's the first of the 'big four.' That is episodes where Whedon pretty much set it upon himself to see if he could actually do it. (The musical being another, obviously.) It was in response to how there were a lot of remarks about the show along the lines of "It's only good because of the dialog." The actors (especially SMG) say it's the hardest work they've ever had to do. Despite it being the series's only episode nominated of the for an Emmy, it's generally considered the weakest of the four. But I'll let you judge.

Are the other two coming up or have I seen one of them without realizing it?

Doomed

This episode was ok, dealing with the fallout from Hush and progressing the story forward. I’m actually ok with how they are handling the Riley/Buffy relationship, even though it is starting to get a little soap opera-y for my tastes. I think the highlight of this episode for me was learning more about the life of the Slayer, how it’s a destiny thing and Slayers don’t live past 25. I do wonder why Buffy doesn’t intimate why she can’t go through the relationship again, considering how much they are really learning about each other.

The Other highlight of course was Spike. For one, that Hawaiian shirt was hysterical, but I actually like how involved he’s getting in this stretch of the season. I said I don’t want to talk about some spoilers I’ve found out until I come to said episodes, but I do know Spike turns good really soon and this is neutering him towards that direction. However, they are doing it in a fun way and Marsters’s comedic timing is making it work so maybe I don’t care that they are making him good.

I didn’t want to ask this in the Hush post because that episode was incredible, but what exactly is Xander’s role this season? He kind of seems to be directionless with having multiple jobs and being Spike’s babysitter.

 

[Jayson1]

Are the other two coming up or have I seen one of them without realizing it?

Doomed

This episode was ok, dealing with the fallout from Hush and progressing the story forward. I’m actually ok with how they are handling the Riley/Buffy relationship, even though it is starting to get a little soap opera-y for my tastes. I think the highlight of this episode for me was learning more about the life of the Slayer, how it’s a destiny thing and Slayers don’t live past 25. I do wonder why Buffy doesn’t intimate why she can’t go through the relationship again, considering how much they are really learning about each other.

The Other highlight of course was Spike. For one, that Hawaiian shirt was hysterical, but I actually like how involved he’s getting in this stretch of the season. I said I don’t want to talk about some spoilers I’ve found out until I come to said episodes, but I do know Spike turns good really soon and this is neutering him towards that direction. However, they are doing it in a fun way and Marsters’s comedic timing is making it work so maybe I don’t care that they are making him good.

I didn’t want to ask this in the Hush post because that episode was incredible, but what exactly is Xander’s role this season? He kind of seems to be directionless with having multiple jobs and being Spike’s babysitter.

That is Xander's role this season. He has no purpose in life. Which will be dealt with in season 5. I think you might even start to like Xander better in the later seasons.
Jason

 

[tomalak301]

A New Man

I would say that was close to a filler episode as you can get, but rather than using filler as a bad term like it seems to be these days, I think it was good filler. It really pushed things along, questioning the Initiative, Giles warning Buffy to be careful with the relationship, and Spike once again being a highlight. I guess Walsh will turn into the big bad this season considering that final scene, and also she's kind of a Jerk. She doesn't care about anyone in an emotional sense, and she has misjudged Buffy quite a bit, in terms of the whole male role model thing. Thinking about the big bads in each season at this point in the season, she's probably better than The Master, but she's no where near as good as The Mayor or the three from Season 2. At least this Initiative story is being pushed at a nice pace though. I hope it leads to some nice twists and turns in the second half of the season.

@Jayson1

I hope so. He's kind of been in the way this season rather than contributing anything meaningful.

 

[Grendelsbayne]

I've actually never heard the term 'big four' in relation to Buffy. Are we talking

Spoiler

Hush, Restless, The Body, and Once More With Feeling

or a different set?

 

[tomalak301]

The I in Team

One thing about binge watching a series is I think I have a right to change my mind on something the deeper into the story I get. Basically, the Buffy and Reilly thing is awful, boring, and I'm starting to understand why this season isn't well liked. In a series like this, you are kind of drawn into the fantastical elements because it's a fantastical show. What the Initiative is is basically a boring organization with boring motives and a boring Villain, who thankfully just got it at the end. What worked about Season 3 and 2 was how personal things were with the characters versus what they were up against. Angelous, for example, was more than just a mundane run of the mill bad guy. We got personal with his story and in turn the writers used that personal thread against our heroes and turned the series on it's head. Mayor Wilkins was not really as personal as the season 2 villains were, but he was interesting enough with the fantastical side that you liked where it went. It also had another Slayer, who joins the Mayor, thus making that personal connection to our heroes.

In season 4 we have this organization who is nothing more than your typical hand twirling bad guy. I mean listen to Walsh's dialogue before she gets it. It's kind of cringe-worthy "hahaha" stuff. And then there was the whole monitoring Buffy and Riley in bed and honestly that was kind of a turn off. Maybe it was to drive home the point of how bad she was, but we know she's contemptible and this is just nauseating. I mentioned the relationship was too soap-operay for me, and even Buffy being separated from her friends made me hope this storyline ends really quickly.

With that said, I didn't hate this episode, but I didn't like it either. It served to move us towards another point in the season, and Buffy realizing what the organization was actually made me cheer. Hopefully the rest of the season is more interesting with the Adam monster being awake then this episode though.

Goodbye, Iowa

Now our characters are all caught up with what the audience knows. The only thing that was new was this super secret organization drugging it's soldiers so they are super soldiers. This is Buffy does Terminator, basically.

At least Faith awakens from the coma based on the next episode synopsis so we can get some life breathed into this season again.

 

[CorporalClegg]

Are the other two coming up or have I seen one of them without realizing it?

It's the first of the 'big four.'

but I do know Spike turns good really soon and this is neutering him towards that direction

I don't know how much you did spoiler yourself, so I'll be as careful as I can here. But there's one thing that's important to understand: Spike is not good. Walsh is a behavioral psychologist. And the point of the chip wasn't just to neuter him. (Like an animal.) It's meant to act as prolonged behavior adjustment therapy. (Again like an animal.) But anyone who's ever seen "shock therapy" on dogs knows that - besides being cruel - really never works. Spike does not have a soul. He is still inherently evil.

It's really important to understand this because it's the key to understanding what is - without a doubt - the most controversial scene of the entire series. Many people define the entire show by it.

Basically, the Buffy and Reilly thing is awful, boring, and I'm starting to understand why this season isn't well liked. In a series like this, you are kind of drawn into the fantastical elements because it's a fantastical show. What the Initiative is is basically a boring organization with boring motives

Nailed it.

But I think, for most people, the root problem is that the Initiative comes off as so unauthentic. Whedon and co. have all said they don't know anything about the military. And it really shows. They couldn't afford an advisor, but I think could have at least spent a few days in the library.

 

[CorporalClegg]

I've actually never heard the term 'big four' in relation to Buffy. Are we talking

Spoiler

Hush, Restless, The Body, and Once More With Feeling

or a different set?

Correct

 

[tomalak301]

I don't know how much you did spoiler yourself, so I'll be as careful as I can here. But there's one thing that's important to understand: Spike is not good. Walsh is a behavioral psychologist. And the point of the chip wasn't just to neuter him. (Like an animal.) It's meant to act as prolonged behavior adjustment therapy. (Again like an animal.) But anyone who's ever seen "shock therapy" on dogs knows that - besides being cruel - really never works. Spike does not have a soul. He is still inherently evil.

It's really important to understand this because it's the key to understanding what is - without a doubt - the most controversial scene of the entire series. Many people define the entire show by it.

All I know is he becomes kind of a good guy. Ok, so he's still inherently evil, but his motives change so he's really no longer portrayed as a "bad" guy. Now I'm only vague on that so if I'm wrong I'll know it when I see it, but I go back to what one poster said when I first started this about he/she didn't like what Spike had become (And this is when I was still in season 2) and I'm starting to see that direction take shape. As for Controversial scenes, I hope when I get to it you will point it out, or maybe I can figure it out. I do know he's definitely not the same guy as he was at from Season 2 to the about 10 episodes into season 4.

 

[Jayson1]

Maybe the big four would be Buffy,Willow,Xander and Giles. The original scoobies. Remember Cordy wasn't part of the gang in season 1.

Jason

 

[JirinPanthosa]

I liked Buffy/Riley at the start but I don't like the direction of Riley's personality.

The Initiative was rife with military genre cliches but had no real direction and we never really find out its core charge or motive.

 

[Forbin]

I actually liked Riley most of Buffy's beaus. It was probably her least self-destructive relationship! And aside from being some sort of secret agent/army guy, he was just a normal guy. I think he was good for her.

 

[Forbin]

HUSH: Brilliant writing, brilliant cinematography, brilliant score, brilliant acting. One of the best hours of series TV ever! And even with all that, my favorite part is still Buffy pantomiming staking without a stake, and everyone's reaction.

 

[tomalak301]

I actually liked Riley most of Buffy's beaus. It was probably her least self-destructive relationship! And aside from being some sort of secret agent/army guy, he was just a normal guy. I think he was good for her.

I was hoping that would be the case and it was shaping up that way. The thing is once the Initiative got involved and Buffy started distancing herself from her friends, that's when I got really annoyed by the whole thing. Now we learn that the soldiers are drugged and yeah it feels like this place is playing all the military cliche troupes you can think of. If Riley had been a regular guy struggling with loyalty between Buffy and that group, I think the story would have been much more interesting. It leaves it to the characters agency rather than being influenced, paint by numbers style, by outside forces, which is the direction this season is going and I'm not sure I like it.

 

[Timelord79 (he/him)]

Riley still has a bit of development ahead of him. Don’t write him off completely just yet.

 

[JD]

As for Controversial scenes, I hope when I get to it you will point it out, or maybe I can figure it out. I do know he's definitely not the same guy as he was at from Season 2 to the about 10 episodes into season 4.

If it's the scene I think it is, then trust me, you'll know it when you see it.
OK, I stumbled across a spoiler from the later part of Season 8 that I have to comment on.

Spoiler: Season 8+

Dawn and Xander as a couple? That just feels creepy and wrong to me.

 

[tomalak301]

Riley still has a bit of development ahead of him. Don’t write him off completely just yet.

Absolutely. There are still 8 episodes left in this season and the final few usually lead to some surprises, at least it did for the previous 3 seasons. It's just that the stretch of episodes from last night took the season in a direction where looking at the big picture, I'm seeing why it might be considered the weakest. So far I still think this season is better than season 1, but it has some ways to go before it gets up to Season 2 or even Season 3 levels.