Brainstorm - Starfleet Marines (alittle different)

[evilchumlee]

The last couple of posts are digging more into the larger (but still much smaller than Starfleet as a whole) force that started forming in the early days of the Federation through to roughly 2300 when it was substantially gutted either directly or indirectly as a result of the First Khitomer Accords.

Yeah, I think we've done the smaller force to death.

The larger force can be fun now. We can quibble over the specifics of just how large... yeah certainly not as large of an organization as the fleet, but I think this force can be quite large.

I've been doing a bit of research and even the largest of the fanon/licensed media transports of the era appear to top out at 2-3000 passengers for extended periods of time, and the majority of the (semi-)canon designs that could keep pace with Connies and the like are only good for a few hundred.

Which makes me think that even the larger force would typically go at least one size "smaller" than IRL USMC MEUs (150-330 for your "rapid reaction force" under a Major; then ~ 1,100 for your "intermediate force" under a (Lt) Colonel and 2,000 to 4,000 for your "main force" for short to medium term peacetime operations.

I'm not really sure the carrying capacity is really much of an issue. A Constitution-Class is still an incredibly large ship, it just has alot more space dedicated to other things. A purpose built transport should easily be able to carry thousands.

I'm also considering whether the "Marines" during this era should be the "specialist landing force" of a larger Federation Active Force/Reserve Force structure that otherwise more closely resembles the army, and who tend to take over once there is a need to employ larger formations or even whole commands for extended planetary conflicts, including but not limited to during actual war?

I'm still not huge on the idea of a Federation Army per say, but I do think ESPECIALLY in this era there would be something like a member world unified command for their forces? It might be somewhat splitting hairs as it essentially ends up with the same function, but I like to think that Starfleet encompasses the federal-level forces directly under the command of the Federation, while the rest, Reserve Force whatever you want to call it, is entirely composed of member world forces with an apparatus in place to ensure they can work together easily. I keep going back to the NATO comparison, although a structure more akin to the National Guard makes sense too.

 

[Shamrock Holmes]

I'm not really sure the carrying capacity is really much of an issue. A Constitution-Class is still an incredibly large ship, it just has alot more space dedicated to other things. A purpose built transport should easily be able to carry thousands.

The Connie had a crew of about 400 at full manning level and can apparently squeeze in about the same amount again for at least sort periods.

The Starliner pod for the Ptolmey and Dollond-class seem to be closest to a purpose-built transport during the era, and it could only hold around 300 passengers. Even if we assume that a lot of amenties were stripped out and replaced by extra barracks rooms and hanger spaces, that might get you 1,000 at a push, for a total of 3,000 per ship, but transporting a Strategic Formation (10 to 60,000 personnel) much less any sort of Strategic Command (100,000 to millions) is still going to present difficulties in the short to medium term.

I'm still not huge on the idea of a Federation Army per say, but I do think ESPECIALLY in this era there would be something like a member world unified command for their forces?

That's mostly what I had in mind. The main difference between this era and the later, scaled down era, is that combat arms units and tactical formation from member planets would on a standard, regular rotation for off-planet duty, rather it being purely an emergency measure that requires the active authorisation of their government/Federation Council/Federation President.

It might be somewhat splitting hairs as it essentially ends up with the same function, but I like to think that Starfleet encompasses the federal-level forces directly under the command of the Federation,

I see the Starfleet Commander-in-Chief as being overall charge of anything that's operating under Federation authority, and likewise their deputies within the sector leaderships would have a certain amount of authority as well, but in 'day-to-day' matters I would expect that the Combat Force largely manages itself in the same way that ship's medical departments, engineering departments and security departments are broadly under the captain's authority but answer first and sometimes only to their own officers.

I keep going back to the NATO comparison, although a structure more akin to the National Guard makes sense too.

The Reserve Force is definitely more National Guard.

Whether the Active Forces and Marines are more like NATO or US Army/Marines probably depends on how you see the Federation itself during the era.

If you insist as many do that it's more of a loose coalition with little centralised executive power then it's more like NATO.

But if you operate from the basic premise that it is a federation as the name suggests, then it's going to have at least as much centralised power as the US does, and therefore it's more like a combined USA/USMC.

 

[evilchumlee]

But if you operate from the basic premise that it is a federation as the name suggests, then it's going to have at least as much centralised power as the US does, and therefore it's more like a combined USA/USMC.

I don't think that necessarily has to be the case. Just through observation, I would put the Federation as operating closer to the European Union than the United States.

 

[Shamrock Holmes]

I don't think that necessarily has to be the case. Just through observation, I would put the Federation as operating closer to the European Union than the United States.

How do you figure?

The UFP is the Chief Executive of the Federation and specifically the "Commander-in-Chief" of the Federations armed forces/law enforcement apparatus, with the solo authority to deploy said assets on any member planet by declaring martial law.

The EU doesn't even have any armed forces under its direct authority, never mind the ability to do that.

 

[evilchumlee]

The EU doesn't even have any armed forces under its direct authority, never mind the ability to do that.

It's based on the observations of how the Federation appears to work in general. Nothing is a direct 1:1... I think the Federation is more similar to the EU than to the US.

In general the central government of the Federation appears to be fairly weak, with most power resting with the member worlds. I believe that Federation worlds have a greater amount of sovereignty than a US state does.

I think it really falls somewhere in-between the US and EU, even in actual production Roddenberry intended it to be the "Space UN". We know it's much more than that, but I don't think it's quite as centralized as the US is. Yes, it has a national military and the federal government can assert more power in circumstances, but by and large it seems that Federation worlds are by and large sovereign entities.

 

[Shamrock Holmes]

In general the central government of the Federation appears to be fairly weak, with most power resting with the member worlds.

Based on what?

To be clear, I'm not saying that they're not largely internally sovereign (and actually the EU exerts far more control over internal politics than the US Federal government does in some ways).

I believe that Federation worlds have a greater amount of sovereignty than a US state does.

Again, there is limited evidence at best that member worlds are permitted any kind of external foreign policy, which is more in line with a singular (federal) nation state with internally sovereign sub-states rather than a pseudo-confederation arrangement like the EU.

I think it really falls somewhere in-between the US and EU, even in actual production Roddenberry intended it to be the "Space UN".

The fact that has a singular President (the EU has somewhere between 3 and 5 who claim that or an analogus title, but are more like a Speaker of the House, Prime Minister, Foreign Minister et al in practice) and a singular political body both make it far more like the US (or similar democratice republic) than the EU, even without the other considerations noted above.

As far as the latter, he said a lot dumb things in pre-production that either didn't make it on-screen or at best fizzled out part-way through the first season of TOS (which the only part of canon which is even remotely compatible with your concept).

 

[Shamrock Holmes]

Thoughts on the operational/tactical level units that might have transferred over to Starfleet Security to some extent post-Khitomer:

Federation Expeditionary Forces Organization:
Operations:

EF Commando Squad (12-16 personnel):

Squad Leader (LT or SWO)
Commando Teams: Typically include a Team Leader (LWO or SWO), a Medic (LWO), an Operations Specialist (LWO) and one or two Commandos (Recruit, WO or Recruit and LWO)).

----
EF Composite Detachment (~150 personnel):

Detachment Commander (Major)
Logistics and Support Squad: led by an Operations Officer (LT) and Chief Medical Officer (LT)), an Assistant Communications/Intel Officer (ENS or 2LT/LT-JG), a Logistics/Construction Team and a Medical Team. Typically around 21 personnel.
Aviation & Engineering Flight: led by Flight Leader (LT)*, assisted by the Aviation Engineering Chief (SWO/MWO). Typically around 48 personnel.
Commando Squads: led by either a LT** or SWO depending on available personnel. Standard configuration is 5 squads of 12-16 personnel each.

* = Typically dual-hatted as the EFED XO if the entire detachment deploys on a single operation.
** = Ranking LT typically acts as EFED Second Officer/Officer-in-Command for partial deployments or in the absence of the Flight Leader.

----
EF Composite Unit (~1,500 personnel):

Unit Commander (Colonel or Colonel-Commandant)
Logistics and Support Center: led by an Operations Manager (Major), SCE Liaison Officer (LT) and Chief Medical Officer (LT). Includes a Planetary Phaser Emplacement Element, a Communications/Intelligence Team, a Logistics/Construction/Maintenance Team, a Hospital Team and a Base Security Team. Typically around 150 personnel.
Aviation & Engineering Squadron: led by the Squadron Leader (Major)* and the Chief Engineer (LT/LTCDR), assisted by the Aviation Chief of Operations (MWO). Typically around 400 personnel.
Mechanized Battalion: Led by a LCOL*, includes up to ~500 non-Commando soldiers assigned to EF Hoppers and other ground vehicles.
Composite Detachments: Each detachment is led by a major. As standard, each EFCU typically includes 3 EFCDs of up to 150 personnel each to act as a Rapid Response Component while the rest of the unit gears up and deploys.


* = Typically dual-hatted as the Unit XO if the entire detachment deploys on a single operation.

 

[Shamrock Holmes]

Proposal for the first level strategic level contingent, which was almost certainly moved to an entirely administrative formation under Starfleet Security as part of the post-Khitomer reorganisation:

EF Composite Force (~15,000 personnel):

Force Commander (Major General)
Logistics and Support Unit: led by an Operations Manager (Colonel), SCE Liaison Officer (LTCDR or CMDR) and Chief Medical Officer (LTCDR or CMDR). Includes a Planetary Phaser Emplacement Squadron, a Communications/Intelligence Squad, a Logistics Squad, a Construction/Maintenance Squad, a Hospital Squad and a Base Security Detachment. Typically 1,500 around FEF, FRF and Starfleet personnel.
Aviation & Engineering Group: led by Group Leader (Brigadier) and Chief Engineer (CDR or CPT), assisted by the Aviation Chief of Operations (MWO). Typically around 4,000 400 FEF, FRF and Starfleet personnel.
Hopper Group/Brigade: Led by the Group Leader (Brigadier)*, assisted by a Brigade Adjutant (MWO) and the ranking individual cohort/battalion commanders (LCOL or COL) as XO, typically includes up to ~5000 non-Commando FRF and Starfleet Security personnel assigned Hoppers and other ground vehicles.
EF Composite Units: Each EFCU is led by a COL or COL-CMDT. As standard, each EFF contains 3 EFCU with 1,500 personnel each.


* = Typically dual-hatted as the EFCF Deputy Commander if the entire force deploys on a single operation, and may be assigned as Acting Commander during a partial deployment.

 

[pio1776]

Hair splitting but fair enough.

Especially since Kirk calls himself a soldier. But, post Dominion War that might be less popular thing to say.

Look at the Japanese Self-Defense Forces, or the UN Peacekeeping Forces.

Starfleet Strategic Force Department.

Starfleet Strategic Defense Force.

how about "Starfleet Deployment Operations Group, aka Dogs

 

[Shamrock Holmes]

Not sold on that, though the Deployable Operations Group (an IRL USCG formation) has a decent ring to it.

As with the IRL version, I'd probably place it as more of an embarked rapid-response formation of security personnel* for SWAT and VBSS work rather than the extended missions of the military personnel of the Expeditionary Forces.

* what Robert Fletcher's BTS material refers to as Starfleet Security/Office of the Inspector General Special Forces.