Brainstorm - Starfleet Marines (alittle different)

[evilchumlee]

Unfortunately, they do.

It's called the Office of the Attorney General. They're literally both part of the same "department" and enforce federal not local law unless there are specific arrangements made with the local authorities (which did happen historically in the case of the latter, but has been largely obselete for over a century now).

I learned something today.

I'm actually ok with reverse course on Starfleet Security. I think my holdup was the idea that Starfleet Security tends to portrayed as a somewhat shadowy, intelligence-type organization... but given how massive Starfleet departments are, i'm fine with that being just one aspect of it.

It still makes sense for the ships tactical officers to be Security, as it seems now "Starfleet Security" is essentially the all-encompassing "military arm" of Starfleet.

But he apparently agreed to be Second Officer, which argues for the idea that he's content to be both. Potentially more so than LaForge, who is no better than fourth or fifth in command.

I think alot of it comes down to attitude rather than actual position. Yes, Scotty agreed to be second officer, and a stone cold bad ass when he was in command.

However despite have training, credential and experience for it... I find it likely for Scotty to not really identify in that role. But regardless of how Scotty might feel, I still think it's entirely plausible for someone like Pulaski to have the training and credentials to do so, while also just... opting not to. She's a doctor. She doesn't care about Starfleet stuff. She cares about medical stuff.

I'm also fine with things being a touch more flexible... it's brought up in regards to Troi that to get the promotion to Commander, she needs to take the bridge officer test. I don't think it's a stretch to think that Starfleet Medical may have some different requirements for promotion, going for the bridge officer test may one route, but there may also be a more medical-centric option as well. It's probably not particularly necessary for medical professionals to train in starship command.

Troi may have also potentially had other options, but the only one that really feasible in her current position/role was the bridge officer test.

As I said, The Loss (TNG) pretty much hangs on the idea that Troi is the only official counsellor on board, which implies that Troi is part of the Medical Department and subordinate to Crusher/Pulaski in a similar way that LaForge and Yar/Worf are subordinate to Data as the Senior Officer within the Operations Department.

I can give you Troi on that, although i'm not 100% sure she's considered Medical. She probably should be, but they might lump a therapist under general science. She doesn't actually appear to be a psychiatrist, she never attempts to treat a condition with medication. She's a counsellor, and actually I COULD be wrong on this, but I believe DS9 established Ezri as being under science.

I still don't believe that Yar/Worf were subordinate to Data. Operations and Security have always been portrayed as different departments. There has never been any indication of Worf reporting to Data, aside from Data's role as Second Officer. Security/Tactical is a fairly well defined department of it's own... oddly enough, "Operations" tends to be the less defined one.

Troi is certainly the liasion between the command staff and the civilian passengers, but there's no indication that she has any formal management authority over them, indeed I would expect only the Commanding Officer or current Officer-in-Command would.

Possibly, although Troi might be a somewhat special case with authority granted on ship... Picard never came off as the type who want to bothered with all of that, especially given his general aversion to children. I can see that not being official Starfleet policy, but more a Captain Picard policy.

From a factual standpoint, he's entirely incorrect.

I'd say perhaps more from a legal standpoint, he's incorrect. It's been ingrained fairly well that by and large, Starfleet itself considers military operations to be a secondary focus. So yes, while... they are a military because they do military things as a secondary mission, their primary mission is non-military... somebody with the attitude that "Starfleet isn't the military" may not be 100% factually correct, but it does convey how Starfleet operates. When you have high ranking officers in your military saying your military isn't a military... maybe the 100% factual statement isn't really as relevant?


I want to circle back to an earlier thing about the general nomenclature. I don't want to use "MACO" or "Commando" partly because those things do exist and I believe they continue to exist. We know member worlds still have forces of their own... Earth probably still has MACO's, Vulcan still has Commandos. Using "Marine" for these forces is a nod to both (my) established history, a still generally applicable term, and also a nod to the decades of fandom/beta canon around Marines.

On that note as well, I was thinking a bit more about the Marine timeline... here's my broad strokes of what i've come up with...

22nd century Earth Starfleet... there are no Marines, MACO's serve on ships by 2153. By the time of the Romulan War, MACO's are a more common sight, although we know there is little in the way of ground warfare.

When the Federation forms and Starfleet shifts to Federation command (and I think that is the case... in my conjecture, Earth spearheads the Federation by offering up a huge chunk of Starfleet to directly transfer to Federation command), there aren't Marines right out of the gate. They come in shortly after, initially a small force that was somewhat haphazardly created from whatever forces member worlds offered up, a majority were MACO's given Earth's general tendency to go all-in on the Federation.

They decide on "Starfleet Marine Corps" for the name of this organization and are generally organized in a fashion most similar to the MACO's, since they formed the backbone of the force anyway. Some early conflicts allow the Marines to prove their worth to a Federation who has been generally unsure of how much military authority it should have.

Through the late 22nd century into the early 23rd, the Marine Corps grows into a much larger force, to the point that in in the very early 23rd century, the Marine Corps becomes it's own department under Starfleet Command (previously being under Starfleet Security).

And then the Khitomer Accords occur, placing some hard limits on what forces the "Big Three" governments can field. It's clear to most in the Marines that they're organization is going to be the most directly threatened, and they're right. Right around 2300, the Marine Corps is dissolved as a department of it's own. However, much of the personnel are transferred into Starfleet Security, with the intent of still maintaining a combat-ready force, skirting the lines of what the Accords allow.

Reorganized under Starfleet Security Advanced Tactical Operations, the Marines would get a new life. This new force would be much smaller in scope than the former Marine Corps, essentially a large special forces group trained to be combat specialists. The traditions of the Marine Corps lived on at least in some form, and despite an official designation as Advanced Tactical Security Officers, they were still referred to as Marines both internally and throughout the fleet.

EDIT -

Downtime at work today i'm messing with my trying to create a Starfleet org chart type thing. I forgot that "Starfleet Tactical Command" exists, also either referred to as, or a sub-department, "Tactical Operations".

I might almost be overthinking the name for this. Tactical Unit is a term that has showed up, and sounds like something that would be in Star Trek. I kind of like that. We have an organization made up of Tactical Unit "Marines".

 

[Shamrock Holmes]

I'm actually ok with reverse course on Starfleet Security. I think my holdup was the idea that Starfleet Security tends to portrayed as a somewhat shadowy, intelligence-type organization... but given how massive Starfleet departments are, i'm fine with that being just one aspect of it.

Makes sense.

It still makes sense for the ships tactical officers to be Security, as it seems now "Starfleet Security" is essentially the all-encompassing "military arm" of Starfleet.

There's probably some differentiation for Candidates and Assistants, but there's certainly a logic to any senior specialist or commissioned officer to have some familiarity with both functions.

I think alot of it comes down to attitude rather than actual position. Yes, Scotty agreed to be second officer, and a stone cold bad ass when he was in command.

However despite have training, credential and experience for it... I find it likely for Scotty to not really identify in that role.

Agree to disagree.

But regardless of how Scotty might feel, I still think it's entirely plausible for someone like Pulaski to have the training and credentials to do so, while also just... opting not to. She's a doctor. She doesn't care about Starfleet stuff. She cares about medical stuff.

Given that she mentions "not a bridge officer" while standing on the bridge in the context of asking whether Data is skilled at bridge operations... so logically she's asked a question that she doesn't have an answer to... ie, she isn't skilled in that function.

I'm also fine with things being a touch more flexible... it's brought up in regards to Troi that to get the promotion to Commander, she needs to take the bridge officer test. I don't think it's a stretch to think that Starfleet Medical may have some different requirements for promotion, going for the bridge officer test may one route, but there may also be a more medical-centric option as well. It's probably not particularly necessary for medical professionals to train in starship command.

There's an argument that it might be "more necessary" for medical officers who wish to both remain deployed on the frontline and be promoted within a short period of time to do so.

Pulaski's full career is unknown, but we can reasonable assume that she's had between fifteen and twenty years of experince as a physician compared to Deanna's six as a Starfleet officer during the year they worked together.

Troi may have also potentially had other options, but the only one that really feasible in her current position/role was the bridge officer test.

The second point is probably the key point to me.

She doesn't actually appear to be a psychiatrist, she never attempts to treat a condition with medication.

Strictly speaking no, though mental health professionals are administered by the Medical Department in the field IRL.

She's a counsellor, and actually I COULD be wrong on this, but I believe DS9 established Ezri as being under science.

Doubtful, particularly given that they didn't have a Science Officer that year.

I still don't believe that Yar/Worf were subordinate to Data. Operations and Security have always been portrayed as different departments. There has never been any indication of Worf reporting to Data, aside from Data's role as Second Officer.

Not really.

If you'd say Engineering and Security are two separate functions, then I'd kinda agree up to a point, though Armory is something of an overlap, and it's unclear where Communications sits either, but given that the communal uniform is often referred to as "Operations Gold" my assumption is that Operations is the overarching department for both/all three.

There's also the fact that we have at least three episodes that depict being the Operations Officer as being a promotion for a Security Officer (Worf twice, Sito Jaxa once)

Possibly, although Troi might be a somewhat special case with authority granted on ship... Picard never came off as the type who want to bothered with all of that, especially given his general aversion to children. I can see that not being official Starfleet policy, but more a Captain Picard policy.

I could see that.

I'd say perhaps more from a legal standpoint, he's incorrect

IMO legalities are facts, opinions are not.

I want to circle back to an earlier thing about the general nomenclature. I don't want to use "MACO" or "Commando" partly because those things do exist and I believe they continue to exist.

Not an unreasonable point.

Through the late 22nd century into the early 23rd, the Marine Corps grows into a much larger force, to the point that in in the very early 23rd century, the Marine Corps becomes it's own department under Starfleet Command (previously being under Starfleet Security).

Makes sense.

Reorganized under Starfleet Security Advanced Tactical Operations, the Marines would get a new life.

It seems to me that any new name might draw from the names of the preceeding units/formations rather than coming up with a completely novel name that even if it's not contradictionary per se, definitely doesn't describe the work particularly well.

Strategic ad hoc military field formations are often titled as expeditionary, indeed the US Armed Forces use this as the official name for their permanent forces, so something like Starfleet Security Expeditionary Operations would seem to describe the primarily ground/boarding-based functions as well or better than "Advanced Tactical Operations".

 

[evilchumlee]

ns "not a bridge officer" while standing on the bridge in the context of asking whether Data is skilled at bridge operations... so logically she's asked a question that she doesn't have an answer to... ie, she isn't skilled in that function.

Fair point.

There's an argument that it might be "more necessary" for medical officers who wish to both remain deployed on the frontline and be promoted within a short period of time to do so.

Pulaski's full career is unknown, but we can reasonable assume that she's had between fifteen and twenty years of experince as a physician compared to Deanna's six as a Starfleet officer during the year they worked together.

Also a fair point. Pulaski never even really seemed to want to be there in the first place. I think it's entirely reasonable she preferred a planetary or station posting, at which point bridge operations aren't relevant.

Strictly speaking no, though mental health professionals are administered by the Medical Department in the field IRL.

Doubtful, particularly given that they didn't have a Science Officer that year.

I don't it's absolutely necessary to have a science officer to have someone from the science department posted. Starfleet is generally less formal than that. If Ezri was considered science rather than medical, she may just report to sector command.

She definitely never appears to report to Bashir, especially given their relationship. Starfleet might be mighty lax with alot of things, but that would be going too far even for me.

If you'd say Engineering and Security are two separate functions, then I'd kinda agree up to a point, though Armory is something of an overlap, and it's unclear where Communications sits either, but given that the communal uniform is often referred to as "Operations Gold" my assumption is that Operations is the overarching department for both/all three.

There's also the fact that we have at least three episodes that depict being the Operations Officer as being a promotion for a Security Officer (Worf twice, Sito Jaxa once)

Comms seems to fall under Security/Tactical. Just off of memory, I recall usually Worf and Tuvok being in control of comms.

Operations is an odd one and might kind of depend on the ship. Yeah on the E-D, Operations seemed to be a promotion spot. On Voyager, Tuvok was second officer and was Chief of Security. You can argue if Kim was "Chief of Operations" or not, but he the senior officer for the station. Tuvok is never referred to as Ops.

An observation is that Starfleet Captains have quite a bit of freedom to handle their ships as they like... on the E-D, Picard may have decided that Chief of Operations would always act as Second Officer, therefore making Ops the more prestigious position, whereas Janeway chose Security/Tactical for that.

I'm also not completely against there being essentially three branches of Starfleet... with a caveat or two. I actually generally don't mind if it's something like "Command/Control, Operations, Science" and then everything else filters through those three. I think Starfleet Intelligence is its own thing though. I've put a model together like that, where "Operations" is Security/Tactical/Engineering/Logistics/etc., and "Science" is more officially like, "Starfleet General Sciences" or something like that, with Starfleet Medical being under that. I don't think there would be any real issue with each branch having something of it's own culture/traditions, something we actually get a glimpse of in LDS. I'm using that more for where I place Starfleet Medical... it's officially subordinate to "General Sciences", but in practice General Sciences command treats Starfleet Medical as its own entity. Perhaps in a similar fashion the US Navy/US Marines... if i'm not mistaken, the Marines are still under the Department of the Navy, but also their own branch? I think that makes sense for Starfleet Medical.

In the 3 branch system is where I had the 23rd century Starfleet Marines as its own branch as well. Medicine IS science, but it's a broad science that really requires its own structure. The rest of other sciences can more easily be grouped into the same command, and I would wager Science is by FAR the least strict department in Starfleet, where the "we aren't a military" is felt the most.

It seems to me that any new name might draw from the names of the preceeding units/formations rather than coming up with a completely novel name that even if it's not contradictionary per se, definitely doesn't describe the work particularly well.

Strategic ad hoc military field formations are often titled as expeditionary, indeed the US Armed Forces use this as the official name for their permanent forces, so something like Starfleet Security Expeditionary Operations would seem to describe the primarily ground/boarding-based functions as well or better than "Advanced Tactical Operations".

I don't mind the term Expeditionary, but i'm not sure I love it in as an official name for the force. I suppose I wouldn't mind the sub-command being "Starfleet Expeditionary Operations"... it does kind of work with the lore i'm trying to establish, that Starfleet isn't really supposed to have a large standing military force... so instead it has a department for expeditionary operations, just for like, you know, when we need it. Totally not all the time. No way.

 

[Shamrock Holmes]

Also a fair point. Pulaski never even really seemed to want to be there in the first place. I think it's entirely reasonable she preferred a planetary or station posting, at which point bridge operations aren't relevant.

I still feel there's probably some sort of equivalent, but it does probably vary depending on the size, scope and purpose of the installation.

I don't it's absolutely necessary to have a science officer to have someone from the science department posted. Starfleet is generally less formal than that. If Ezri was considered science rather than medical, she may just report to sector command.

Bashir's primary chain of command would definitely through Sector up through Starfleet's medical department to the surgeon-general. Assuming that Starfleet requires it's counsellors to be licensed as IRL government agencies do AFAICT, then she'd mostly be a clinical psychologist, which is an allied profession and part of the one of the three "medical" departments (Medical, Nursing and Medical Service) that presumably condense into one for Starfleet.

IMO, Science Officers are going operate primarily through the ship's chain of command.

She definitely never appears to report to Bashir, especially given their relationship. Starfleet might be mighty lax with alot of things, but that would be going too far even for me.

That's probably at least in part because Bashir is a relatively junior medical officer himself (indeed IRL he probably wouldn't be authorized to practice independently.

Therefore, her primary chain-of-command runs through the ranking Starfleet Counsellor for the Sector, likely Counsellor Benbasset of Starbase 235, but potentially someone at the hospital on Starbase 371 or one of Ross' direct staff.

Comms seems to fall under Security/Tactical. Just off of memory, I recall usually Worf and Tuvok being in control of comms.

Worf was generally in charge of communications, which often caused issues during battle, which is probably why the function was primarily shifted over to the Operations Officer on Voyager and the Enterprise-E (though other consoles including the XO's could also access external comms)

Operations is an odd one and might kind of depend on the ship. Yeah on the E-D, Operations seemed to be a promotion spot. On Voyager, Tuvok was second officer and was Chief of Security. You can argue if Kim was "Chief of Operations" or not, but he the senior officer for the station.

Kim was officially titled as the Operations Officer and mainly acted as the Communications Officer and initially the Science Officer until replaced by Seven of Nine.

Tuvok is never referred to as Ops.

Not directly, though he wore that uniform.

An observation is that Starfleet Captains have quite a bit of freedom to handle their ships as they like... on the E-D, Picard may have decided that Chief of Operations would always act as Second Officer, therefore making Ops the more prestigious position, whereas Janeway chose Security/Tactical for that.

As I've said before, it's mostly a seniority thing IMO.

Data was a lieutenant commander with nineteen to twenty years as an officer and four years time-in-grade, versus Yar's two or three years total and Worf's similar lack of experience.

Similarly, Tuvok as (at least) a full lieutenant with around thirty years of experience even discounting his "first Starfleet career".

I'm also not completely against there being essentially three branches of Starfleet... with a caveat or two. I actually generally don't mind if it's something like "Command/Control, Operations, Science" and then everything else filters through those three.

There certainly shouldn't be less.

I think Starfleet Intelligence is its own thing though.

It's still "regular Starfleet" at least in part, though I agree it probably doesn't adhere precisely to the "three department system" used for deployed starship and starbase personnel canonically.

I've put a model together like that, where "Operations" is Security/Tactical/Engineering/Logistics/etc., and "Science" is more officially like, "Starfleet General Sciences" or something like that, with Starfleet Medical being under that.

I don't think there would be any real issue with each branch having something of it's own culture/traditions, something we actually get a glimpse of in LDS. I'm using that more for where I place Starfleet Medical... it's officially subordinate to "General Sciences", but in practice General Sciences command treats Starfleet Medical as its own entity.

IMO, Sciences is at least two branches (others have suggested four-to-five which would be an accurate reflection of IRL organisation of the sciences):
Life Sciences: Biology, Chemistry, Medicine et al.
General/Astro Sciences: Everything else.

Perhaps in a similar fashion the US Navy/US Marines... if i'm not mistaken, the Marines are still under the Department of the Navy, but also their own branch? I think that makes sense for Starfleet Medical.

Not exactly, but sorta yeah.

and I would wager Science is by FAR the least strict department in Starfleet, where the "we aren't a military" is felt the most.

Somewhat variable, but I don't disagree in principle.

I don't mind the term Expeditionary, but i'm not sure I love it in as an official name for the force. I suppose I wouldn't mind the sub-command being "Starfleet Expeditionary Operations"... it does kind of work with the lore i'm trying to establish, that Starfleet isn't really supposed to have a large standing military force... so instead it has a department for expeditionary operations, just for like, you know, when we need it. Totally not all the time. No way.

IMO, the advantage of Expeditionary as a term is that it's both referring fairly clearly to "military operations" to those "in the know"/"want to know", but at the same time equally gives the "peacniks" an escape clause that it's actually "supporting scientific expeditions" not engaging in warfare.

 

[evilchumlee]

IMO, Science Officers are going operate primarily through the ship's chain of command.

Agreed there. I'm not even sure most ships even have something like a "Chief Science Officer", and even then that feels a bit more like a specialist role rather than a department head. The nature of how scientists operate doesn't really fit well with a rigid command structure, and most ships are also probably not going to have entire departments dedicated to a single discipline. The E-D may have a Stellar Cartography department... smaller ships may have a single Stellar Cartographer.

On the E-D anyway, it sometimes felt as though the science departments reported through Operations.

Kim was officially titled as the Operations Officer and mainly acted as the Communications Officer and initially the Science Officer until replaced by Seven of Nine.

Not directly, though he wore that uniform.

That uniform is Operations, Security, and Engineering... i'm really confused as to where "Tuvok is Operations" is coming from. That's just factually incorrect. You could argue that Security is under the umbrella of Operations... but even in that case, the roles of Tuvok and Kim should be reversed.

I would potentially argue that the Operations station may not be created equal on every ship. Just going by the straight name of the position, a Galaxy-Class is going to have orders of magnitude more... Operations to manage than Voyager would.

I do think it makes sense that if the flag-level is "Operations" in a more generalized term covering Security, Tactical, Engineering and the catch-all ship operations that the role on the ship would be less important to the command structure than the senior officer in that branch... going with this, both Kim and Tuvok are "Operations", as in a part of the Operations branch. Tuvok is the senior officer, but mans Security, while Kim mans the Operations station. On the E-D, Worf and Data are both "Operations", with Data being the Senior officer and manning the Operations station. Tl;dr, the job doesn't matter as much.

I do think that with an overarching "Operations", Engineering may be treated somewhat similar to Starfleet Medical... they're both under a more generalized flag command, but act semi-independently from it.

There certainly shouldn't be less.

It's still "regular Starfleet" at least in part, though I agree it probably doesn't adhere precisely to the "three department system" used for deployed starship and starbase personnel canonically.

I agree that three is the absolute minimum, and even then with a few caveats.

I do like to separate out Starfleet Intelligence. It is "regular Starfleet", but... also different. We've never heard of a "Federation Intelligence", I think that Starfleet Intelligence is an oddball organization that is part-military (Starfleet) and part civilian. That kind of sums of Starfleet in general... but I think it's more formalized in Intelligence.

IMO, Sciences is at least two branches (others have suggested four-to-five which would be an accurate reflection of IRL organisation of the sciences):
Life Sciences: Biology, Chemistry, Medicine et al.
General/Astro Sciences: Everything else.

There's probably way more than that... which is why I think the Science branch is less military structured than the others. It's probably closer to a University with ranks. Under the general "Science" branch are all manner of specialist departments and it should be much easier to move about between them.

We don't see too much of the general culture of sciences. One small piece of evidence could be Crusher promoting Ogawa in TNG "Lower Decks"... the other officers are really struggling to make it happen and seem to be under intense scrutiny. Crusher, on the other hand, is basically just like "Hey Ogawa, you want a promotion?", and she's like "Yeah!", and Crusher is like "Ok cool, done."

IMO, the advantage of Expeditionary as a term is that it's both referring fairly clearly to "military operations" to those "in the know"/"want to know", but at the same time equally gives the "peacniks" an escape clause that it's actually "supporting scientific expeditions" not engaging in warfare.

It's a totally viable term. Any issues I might have with that strictly on a creative level... I don't love how it sounds in relation to other things in Star Trek. But it's also not terrible.

I was playing around last night with pulling the list of known Starfleet agencies from Memory Alpha and trying to arrange them and add things in. There does exist a "Tactical Operations Command" which... well... seems fitting for this. Rather than put our Marines directly under Starfleet Security, I put Tactical Operations Command under Operations (There is also a "Strategic Operations Command", I put that under Red).

I figured this organization can be under Tactical Operations Command, which I split into... three for the time being? "Starfleet Expeditionary Force Command", "Starfleet Tactical Aviation Command", and "Starfleet Tactical Transport Corps"

I don't love the term Aviation in this context, but I couldn't think of a better term.

Starfleet Security is more law enforcement and intelligence focused... under is "Starfleet Investigative Service" (i'm going with that being almost literally Space FBI), Starfleet Rehab (which seems to be Starfleet corrections), and it's mentioned Raffi worked for "Romulan Affairs", so I stuck that in Starfleet Security.

On a tangent, the Judge Advocate General we know is "red", so I put that under Command. Given that Starfleet definitely has some jurisdiction over civilian affairs in the Federation, it seems to make some sense there is a separation between Judicial and Executive power.

 

[Shamrock Holmes]

Okay, you're including a boatload of fanon here, and misplacing what little canon or even semi-canon information that you are including.

Nearest I can figure based on canon information from Memory Alpha only is that the majority of Starfleet activity is -- as you've suggested -- handled by Starfleet Fleet Operations (aka Fleet Ops or Starfleet Operations), which is divided into four departments, of which only one has a fairly defined role:

Tactical (Operations/Command): Responsible for the maintence, supply and development of Starfleet technology and planning and distribution of defensive strategies to the Fleet. To this end, they have at least limited authority over the movement of Starfleet vessels.

There is also "Administrative Operations", "Strategic Operations" (which given the meaning of the word IRL and it's use in canon, I would suspect is the lead department for the movement of any standing fleets and co-ordination of the space elements of Federation defense such as it is) and Engineering Operations.

SAO I suspect is primarily concerned with the bureaucracy of Starfleet (including Personnel Deployment, the Bureau of Information, the Starfleet Diplomatic Corps, Fleet Supply Office/Material Supply Command), with a secondary portfolio to act as the day-to-day liasion for the other flag departments like Starfleet Medical, Starfleet JAG and the Starfleet Corps of Engineers and with other Federation and allied agencies.

Starfleet Intelligence I'd be inclined to place with SO, given that the Fleet Intelligence Officer role is de facto a subset of the Strategic Operations Officer position.

Starfleet Rehab (originally proposed as "Federation and Fleet Penal Personnel" by Bob Fletcher in his notes on the Monster Maroons), would seem to slot into Administrative Operations.

Starfleet Security could be either Strategic Operations or Administrative Operations and indeed might be both to one extent or another depending on whether they're assigned to a Starfleet facility (in which case it would be the former) or protecting Starfleet interests within a civilian population or as part of a diplomatic staff, in which they probably sit within the latter.

The actual "Space FBI" is Federation Security (aka the Federation Security Agency in licensed media), though obviously Starfleet Security and Starfleet Intelligence (which explicitly includes "Romulan Affairs") will assist if required.

AFAIK, Starfleet JAG only has authority over civilian criminals where their crimes also involve Starfleet officers, and even then I don't think it was confirmed that they would be held in a Starfleet facility, which isn't that much of a stretch IRL either, particularly during wartime or the immediate lead-up to war.

 

[evilchumlee]

Okay, you're including a boatload of fanon here, and misplacing what little canon or even semi-canon information that you are including.

I mean, we are in the fan fiction section... this is mostly conjecture all around.

Nearest I can figure based on canon information from Memory Alpha only is that the majority of Starfleet activity is -- as you've suggested -- handled by Starfleet Fleet Operations (aka Fleet Ops or Starfleet Operations), which is divided into four departments, of which only one has a fairly defined role:

Tactical (Operations/Command): Responsible for the maintence, supply and development of Starfleet technology and planning and distribution of defensive strategies to the Fleet. To this end, they have at least limited authority over the movement of Starfleet vessels.

There is also "Administrative Operations", "Strategic Operations" (which given the meaning of the word IRL and it's use in canon, I would suspect is the lead department for the movement of any standing fleets and co-ordination of the space elements of Federation defense such as it is) and Engineering Operations.

I went a bit different with the interpretation, with Starfleet Command drilling down into the three "branches" of "Command" (I like to label it "Command and Control"), "Operations" and "Science" (or "Starfleet Science Operations".

I put Fleet Operations under "Command", and then "Deep Space Exploratory Corps" under Fleet Ops. (on a more conjecture side, i've interpreted the Lower Decks ships to be a different department all together and lump them under "Auxiliary Support Corps", also under Fleet Ops.

"Operations" is a broad term in Star Trek and I don't think that anything with "Operations" in its name goes under... "Operations"/Gold.

SAO I suspect is primarily concerned with the bureaucracy of Starfleet (including Personnel Deployment, the Bureau of Information, the Starfleet Diplomatic Corps, Fleet Supply Office/Material Supply Command), with a secondary portfolio to act as the day-to-day liasion for the other flag departments like Starfleet Medical, Starfleet JAG and the Starfleet Corps of Engineers and with other Federation and allied agencies.

I have Starfleet Communications as its own flag department, with Bureau of Information, Communications Research Center and "Starfleet Control" reporting to it (I put "Starfleet Control" in just because it was mentioned, but it was really just an early TOS name for Starfleet Command)

I had Administrative Operations actually under Operations/Gold as mostly logistical, there was another agency by the name of "Fleet Administration" that I put under Command/Red for the roles you suggested.

For Engineering, I broke it down a bit more. There's mentions of "Engineering Operations" and "Starfleet Engineering", which I just condensed into "Starfleet Engineering Operations" as flag level, and Starfleet Corps of Engineers as a subordinate department... I take the corps of engineers as being a more specific subset of engineers that are deployed for either combat or generally hazardous missions.

Starfleet Intelligence I'd be inclined to place with SO, given that the Fleet Intelligence Officer role is de facto a subset of the Strategic Operations Officer position.

That could be fine too. I just like Starfleet Intelligence being it's own branch.

Starfleet Rehab (originally proposed as "Federation and Fleet Penal Personnel" by Bob Fletcher in his notes on the Monster Maroons), would seem to slot into Administrative Operations.

Starfleet Security could be either Strategic Operations or Administrative Operations and indeed might be both to one extent or another depending on whether they're assigned to a Starfleet facility (in which case it would be the former) or protecting Starfleet interests within a civilian population or as part of a diplomatic staff, in which they probably sit within the latter.

That could work too, but I like Starfleet Security as a flag level directly under Operations/Gold.

The actual "Space FBI" is Federation Security (aka the Federation Security Agency in licensed media), though obviously Starfleet Security and Starfleet Intelligence (which explicitly includes "Romulan Affairs") will assist if required.

I will give the big 'ol ooops on the Romulan Affairs thing. I thought I had remembered Raffi being identified as Starfleet Security, but that is absolutely wrong, she was definitely Starfleet Intelligence.

Yes there is "Federation Security" as well. The lines are so blurred in Trek between the "Federation" and "Starfleet" that I really think Starfleet is involved in much more that a military would be IRL. Starfleet Security is "Space FBI" if we take that Starfleet may have jurisdiction over Federation space, while Federation Security steps in to handle Federal jurisdiction on member worlds.

AFAIK, Starfleet JAG only has authority over civilian criminals where their crimes also involve Starfleet officers, and even then I don't think it was confirmed that they would be held in a Starfleet facility, which isn't that much of a stretch IRL either, particularly during wartime or the immediate lead-up to war.

Very possibly. Regardless of the extent of the jurisdiction, I think separating out the judicial arm of Starfleet and the Enforcement arm makes sense.

This was my workup I did just based on the stuff we have heard for sure exists:

Command and Control
Starfleet Fleet Operations
Fleet Administration
Fleet Supply Office
Personnel Deployment
Starfleet Mission Operations
Deep Space Exploratory Corps / “Exploratory Division”
Starfleet Starbase Operations
Orbital Operations
Terrestrial Defense Division
Judge Advocate General
Starfleet Diplomatic Corps
Starfleet Communications
Starfleet Bureau of Information
Communications Research Center
Starfleet Control
Strategic Operations Command
Planetary Defense Systems
Tactical Analysis Division
Starfleet Academy


Operations
Starfleet Security
Starfleet Investigative Service
Office of the Inspector General
Starfleet Rehab
Tactical Operations Command
Engineering Operations (Starfleet Engineering)
Starfleet Corps of Engineers
Starfleet Advanced Technologies Division
Starfleet Propulsion Systems
Spaceframe Development
Starfleet Systems Management
Operational Support Services
Maintenance Department
Technical Operations
Starfleet Shipyards Operations
Administrative Operations
Starfleet Materiel Supply Command
Starfleet Safety and Health Command

Starfleet Science Operations
Starfleet Medical
Starfleet Dental
Starfleet Scientific Corps
Applied Sciences Division
Division 14
Office of Special Plans
Starfleet Department of Cartography
Stellar Imaging Division
Starfleet Research and Development
*Daystrom Institute
Warp Technologies Development Group
Starfleet Planetary Geosciences Division

*The Daystrom Institute has seemingly been implied to have at least some connection directly with Starfleet, so I included it.

Delves into some huge conjecture at this point but I like think "Starfleet Scientific Corps" is the more hazard-focused arm of Starfleet Science... with "Applied Sciences" being aimed at "weaponized science", Division 14 doing its thing, and "Office of Special Plans" being basically black ops science. Totally pulled out of my ass, but I like it.

 

[fireproof78]

That could be fine too. I just like Starfleet Intelligence being it's own branch.

You can have intelligence assets within Starfleet and a separate Federation Intelligence. You would also probably have a Federation Inspector General, as well as the Starfleet Office of Inspector General.

 

[evilchumlee]

You can have intelligence assets within Starfleet and a separate Federation Intelligence. You would also probably have a Federation Inspector General, as well as the Starfleet Office of Inspector General.

Absolutely. We just haven't ever specifically heard of "Federation Intelligence", but it's something that would surely exist... unless what I suspect in that Starfleet Intelligence is something of a special case and is not entirely "Starfleet", but is a joint Starfleet/Civilian organization.

Rather than a defined, Federation intelligence, member worlds definitely operate their own intelligence agencies. We know for sure Vulcan does. I hate that Discovery decided to do weird things with Section 31... I had largely assumed Section 31 was always and Earth organization, but Earth being essentially synonymous with the Federation, Section 31 acted in the interests of the Federation, because those are by extension the interests of Earth.

 

[fireproof78]

Rather than a defined, Federation intelligence, member worlds definitely operate their own intelligence agencies. We know for sure Vulcan does. I hate that Discovery decided to do weird things with Section 31... I had largely assumed Section 31 was always and Earth organization, but Earth being essentially synonymous with the Federation, Section 31 acted in the interests of the Federation, because those are by extension the interests of Earth.

It might be more of a coordination agency, one that takes in and reports at a federal level to coordinate all those planetary agencies.

 

[evilchumlee]

It might be more of a coordination agency, one that takes in and reports at a federal level to coordinate all those planetary agencies.

Certainly possible, or at least a part of the function of it.

I made up a backstory that i'm more so using in my "reboot" Trek universe for Starfleet Intelligence. Totally non-canon, but just fun to play around with. I had Starfleet Intelligence born out of Starfleet Security but becoming its own entity. In my retooled version, Starfleet Security starts out as a small organization. They're really just... security guards at the beginning, when Starfleet is a new organization. As Starfleet grows, so to does Security. Section 31 was a part of Starfleet Security, and for awhile wasn't a total secret. It wasn't... advertised, but Starfleet Security had an intelligence arm, and that arm was Section 31. Starfleet Intelligence didn't become a thing until the 2240's, after the whole Control debacle.

Section 31 was officially dissolved, and Starfleet Security's mission became more focused. At that point, Starfleet removed the intelligence duties from Starfleet Security and established a new branch, Starfleet Intelligence, intended to add civilian oversight into the Intelligence operations. It just... so happened alot of former S31 personnel ended up in the new Starfleet Intelligence. Odd.

Starfleet Security would eventually grow back into having an intelligence apparatus, in a bit more directed mission profile.

 

[Shamrock Holmes]

I'm coming around to the idea that Starfleet Security should have shown as the lead agency for investigation of any internal matter (crime, esponsage et al) that involves Starfleet personnel or direct threat to Starfleet installations, whereas Starfleet Intelligence focus mostly on external matters, operating mostly outside Federation territory, though not necessarily in enemy territory, that have implications to "Federation security".

OTOH, Federation Security (aka the Federation Security Agency) deals with a little of both, but primarily focuses on co-ordinating investigations into breaches involving civilians that don't implicate Starfleet personnel or interests and their authority over Starfleet personnel is limited at best (and I say that limited mainly because other Federation non-Starfleet agencies like the Department of Temporal Investigations do have at least some jurisdiction/authority over Starfleet personnel.

 

[evilchumlee]

OTOH, Federation Security (aka the Federation Security Agency) deals with a little of both, but primarily focuses on co-ordinating investigations into breaches involving civilians that don't implicate Starfleet personnel or interests and their authority over Starfleet personnel is limited at best (and I say that limited mainly because other Federation non-Starfleet agencies like the Department of Temporal Investigations do have at least some jurisdiction/authority over Starfleet personnel.

Although and oddity was that when we saw Federation Security, it was McCoy trying to book passage to Genesis… although the travel restriction may well have been federal.

 

[Shamrock Holmes]

Although and oddity was that when we saw Federation Security, it was McCoy trying to book passage to Genesis…

It's not that odd, he was in civilian clothing at the time, but was handed over to Starfleet as soon as the agent identified him off-screen.

although the travel restriction may well have been federal.

Given that the Mutara Nebula/Genesis didn't appear to be in any sovereign planetary system, a federal restriction is the only option that makes sense to me.

 

[evilchumlee]

@Shamrock Holmes

I was working on a different worldbuilding thing that bought me back here and I want to radically shift gears.

Let's talk about a 23rd century force. And let's assume it's none of this beat around the bush type thing, this is a tried and true Starfleet ground combat force intended to fight wars.

Here's a question... would we need an extended level of flag ranks? We're dealing with potentially millions upon millions of soldiers... it seems to be like we would need some extra levels of Generals? Or at the very least, maybe a rank or two inbetween a Colonel and General?

 

[Shamrock Holmes]

Well, it depends how wedded you are to how the structuture of the main bureaucracy of Starfleet is in terms of ranks.

Some Americanophiles insist that Starfleet should follow the USN in not having Commodores and having only four ranks of Admiral which IMO is nonsense given the scale of the fleet in question.

Particularly given that commodores are now explicitly canonical again post-TOS and be have some structure for both Fleet Captain (equivalent of US Commodores and likely Matt Decker from The Doomsday Machine's rank), I'm inclined to go for the following on the TOS sleeve bands and similar IRL naval insignia:

Captain: Senior Officer. Two medium stripes, one broken stripe. Commands a single vessel.
Fleet Captain: Senior Officer. Three medium stripes. Commands their own vessel while commanding a small taskforce.
Commodore: Flag Officer. One broad stripe. Manages Starfleet activity over a particular (part of) a sector or specialist function over a sector.
Rear Admiral: Flag Officer. One broad stripe, one medium. Manages Starfleet activity over a particular sector or specialist function over a region.
Vice Admiral: Flag Officer. One broad stripe, two medium. Manages Starfleet activity over a particular sector or specialist sub-department at Headquarters level. During wartime or other periods of high activity may act as Fleet Commander/Admiral for numbered or designated fleets.
Admiral: Flag Officer. One broad stripe, three medium. Manages Starfleet activity over a specialist department at Headquarters level. During wartime or other periods of high activity may act as Fleet Commander/Admiral for numbered or designated fleets.
Fleet/Chief Admiral: Flag Officer. One broad stripe, four medium*. Rank held by the two (?) main operational heads of Starfleet (Chief of Operations, Starfleet and the Starfleet Chief of Staff).
Fleet/Chief Admiral of Starfleet: Top Flag Officer. Two Broad Stripes, one medium. Rank held by the Commander-in-Chief of Starfleet when the post is held by a member of Starfleet rather than concurrently by the UFP President.


Depending on the exact structure of the expanded Marine Corps, they might not require all of the above (for instance, one equivalent to Fleet Captain and Commodore is probably sufficient) and I would top them out at the equivalent of an Admiral as they are a specialist function even in their expanded form.

* Alternatively two broad stripes.

 

[Shamrock Holmes]

To expand on the above and more specifically address the question, I think for the most part the Starfleet Marines ranks and organisation is going to be set up so that the Marines CO is equal or slightly subordinate to any regular Starfleet CO that they are required to the interact with.

I would say that the Detachment/Reinforced Detachment that (50-150) remained as the maximum functional component during the peacenik post-Khitomer period would probably be the minimum functional component during this era, designed to be deployed on frontline "starships" like the Connie, Miranda and the upcoming Excelsior and Constellation designs. These would be commanded by either a Lieutenant or a Major depending on size and mission duration/complexity.

Each Detachment would be under the administrative control of a Cohort (3+ Detachments, plus additional AeroSpace Force, logistics/support and administration elements, 500+, conventially equivalent of a battalion, but also somewhat analogus to a battlegroup of USMC MEU) with a Lieutenant Colonel (ranking below a Starfleet Captain) or Colonel (ranking between Captain and Fleet Captain) in command. Cohorts returning to active duty after a training/leave would also be routinely deployed for higher risk deployments that still don't require a massed formation of personnel.

Brigadiers are mainly held career officers in teaching, liaison or staff positions, though they may be mobilised in a reserve capacity to assist with local defence operations in command of Battlegroups (3-4 Cohorts plus additional support). Rank with Starfleet Commodores.

Major Generals typically based at Marine Depots located concurrently with Starfleet Flag Commands on Starbases and other strategically vital spots. They may also act as General Officer Commanding of a Formation (Multiple Battlegroups, 5-60,000 personnel in field (reporting to a Fleet Commander as overall Mission Commander) during major sustained conflicts. Rank with Starfleet Rear Admirals.

Lieutenant Generals act as Regional Commanders and Principal Advisor to Starfleet and Federation bureaucracy within that Sector(s) and are typically based at Marine Depots located concurrently with Starfleet Flag Commands on Starbases and other strategically vital spots. While it is legally possible for them to take day-to-day direct command in the field, this typically does not happen except in defensive scenarios during major sustained conflicts. Rank with Starfleet Vice Admirals.

The rank of General is typically held by the Commandant of the Starfleet Marines, who acts as the Principal Advisor on appropriate matters to Starfleet Command and the Commander-in-Chief. Ranks with Starfleet Admirals, but reports directly to the C-in-C during this era.

 

[Shamrock Holmes]

@fireproof78 any thoughts on the above? @evilchumlee likewise?

I have a few other thoughts on the matter, but I don't want to continue if I'm too far off base?

 

[fireproof78]

Depending on the exact structure of the expanded Marine Corps, they might not require all of the above (for instance, one equivalent to Fleet Captain and Commodore is probably sufficient) and I would top them out at the equivalent of an Admiral as they are a specialist function even in their expanded form.

This would be my first question. How deep is the department going to go. Based upon the OP's request this is supposed to be a smaller department, so might have lighter depth of rank. Though even Space Force kept a similar depth with their ranks so maybe size isn't as critical as area of responsibilities.

If the size was fluctuating depending on the need, from drawing up during warfare periods, and then drawing down, perhaps a more robust flag and captain level is important to maintain the standards of training. So, even in draw down periods, the generals would remain in consultation and training advisement to Starfleet Command in general, or sector commanders to perhaps advise on military matters.

That's my initial thoughts but I think the organization is needed to remain strong at the higher leadership level because the training from reserves will need consistent leaders.

 

[Shamrock Holmes]

This would be my first question. How deep is the department going to go. Based upon the OP's request this is supposed to be a smaller department, so might have lighter depth of rank. Though even Space Force kept a similar depth with their ranks so maybe size isn't as critical as area of responsibilities.

The last couple of posts are digging more into the larger (but still much smaller than Starfleet as a whole) force that started forming in the early days of the Federation through to roughly 2300 when it was substantially gutted either directly or indirectly as a result of the First Khitomer Accords.

If the size was fluctuating depending on the need, from drawing up during warfare periods, and then drawing down, perhaps a more robust flag and captain level is important to maintain the standards of training.

I've been doing a bit of research and even the largest of the fanon/licensed media transports of the era appear to top out at 2-3000 passengers for extended periods of time, and the majority of the (semi-)canon designs that could keep pace with Connies and the like are only good for a few hundred.

Which makes me think that even the larger force would typically go at least one size "smaller" than IRL USMC MEUs (150-330 for your "rapid reaction force" under a Major; then ~ 1,100 for your "intermediate force" under a (Lt) Colonel and 2,000 to 4,000 for your "main force" for short to medium term peacetime operations.

I'm also considering whether the "Marines" during this era should be the "specialist landing force" of a larger Federation Active Force/Reserve Force structure that otherwise more closely resembles the army, and who tend to take over once there is a need to employ larger formations or even whole commands for extended planetary conflicts, including but not limited to during actual war?

In which case, there might be a bit of contrast between the Marines and the rest of the Active Force at the top of the "Senior Officer" and the bottom of the "Flag Officer" scale:

The Marines would have Brigadier Generals acting as a Field Commander on the fairly rare occassions that the entire "Marine Formation" within a particular (sub-)sector/system/command was deployed operationally, but otherwise being mostly the first-line strategic leaders.

By contrast, the Active Force (and it's P/T counterpart, the Reserve Force, which partly survived the reforms) are orientated more in the defensive or "second phase reinforcements" roles, so assign their Brigadiers as a Field Role, which strategic leadership not generally kicking in until Major General.

So, even in draw down periods, the generals would remain in consultation and training advisement to Starfleet Command in general, or sector commanders to perhaps advise on military matters.

Absolutely, though that mostly doesn't necessarily require four, five or six-pip generals, junior ones would do.