Brainstorm - Starfleet Marines (alittle different)

[fireproof78]

That's interesting, although not quite to the point i'm trying to make.

No, but looking at context and information because people are going to regard NCOs in different ways.

The larger idea I am looking at is how a reporting chain works, and how people can give orders up and down that chain, including to the idea of a lower ranked personnel ordering higher ranked depending on the situation.

Yes, I am having my own viewpoints on NCOs, but that's primarily dictated by talking with family members who servedin the US Armed Forces, studying different wars, and reading US Navy directives. So, for me, having more context helps to understand what elements to draw from, and what others have used, and then not used.

At least for my purpose it's helpful to know more to say, "Yeah, I want to use this," vs. "this is not in line with my idea."

 

[Shamrock Holmes]

The larger idea I am looking at is how a reporting chain works, and how people can give orders up and down that chain, including to the idea of a lower ranked personnel ordering higher ranked depending on the situation.

As I noted a few posts back, "wiggle room" of a grade or two either way is fairly reasonable, where I have an issue the idea of a specialist being able to order a superior officer who also has far more service experience, which should still be a determining factor even if we abandon the 'commissioned officers first' principle as universally true.

Yes, I am having my own viewpoints on NCOs,

I tend to favour something of a combination of British, Australian and Canadian approaches, depending on where I can the best information from on that particular topic.

For instance, while they don't necessarily line-up exactly two of the three above map fairly well to Bob's Fletcher's late 23rd Century scheme:

Fletcher: Crewman, Ables'man, Petty Officer 2nd Class, Petty Officer 1st Class, Chief Petty Officer, Senior Chief Petty Officer, Master Chief Petty Officer.

RN/RAN: Able Seaman 1/Ordinary Seaman, Able Seaman, Leading Hand/Seaman, Petty Officer, Chief Petty Officer, Warrant Officer II*, Warrant Officer I.

* Not currently appointed.

 

[fireproof78]

As I noted a few posts back, "wiggle room" of a grade or two either way is fairly reasonable, where I have an issue the idea of a specialist being able to order a superior officer who also has far more service experience, which should still be a determining factor even if we abandon the 'commissioned officers first' principle as universally true.

Indeed, yes. And one would hope, barring some of the nonsense we see in Star Trek, that experience and "time in grade" would be applied towards making a particular rank, and why it would carry such weight. It's why I think Starfleet needs the distinction between staff and line officers often employed by current armed services because those reporting duties are so important.

 

[Shamrock Holmes]

It's why I think Starfleet needs the distinction between staff and line officers often employed by current armed services because those reporting duties are so important.

Needs to be more of a navy thing outside the medical and allied health trades as I understand it?

 

[fireproof78]

Needs to be more of a navy thing outside the medical and allied health trades as I understand it?

Last I read the regulations it was primarily a Navy thing due to the medical, administrative, and support staff positions.

 

[evilchumlee]

At least for my purpose it's helpful to know more to say, "Yeah, I want to use this," vs. "this is not in line with my idea."

It's always good to have as much information as possible.

As I noted a few posts back, "wiggle room" of a grade or two either way is fairly reasonable, where I have an issue the idea of a specialist being able to order a superior officer who also has far more service experience, which should still be a determining factor even if we abandon the 'commissioned officers first' principle as universally true.

I don't think I even really disagree with that, but I somewhat discount just general service experience in favor of experience within a particular role. I do think that in the overwhelming majority of cases, we would be looking at wiggle room of a grade or two... but that's also why I would tend to have the Marines mirror Starfleet in being officer-heavy, to reduce some of these issues.

In reading up on some different systems used around the world, there's a part of me that wants to go in a wild direction with the TNG+ organization and make the Marines largely consisting of Warrant Officers... but not in the US definition of a Warrant Officer. In this case, a Warrant Officer is a commissioned rank that exists as it's own, separate structure more similar to South Africa.

They didn't go to the Academy and become commissioned, but they aren't... non-commissioned either. The wikipedia page says, "Warrant officers hold very specific powers, which are set out in the Defence Act and the Military Defence Supplementary Measures Act." This is like, EXACTLY what I was looking for... the Marine officers would have specific powers, which include being able to transfer Starfleet personnel to their command in certain circumstances. It actually helps the idea that they have a separate rank structure... there's no real reason we can't use the general names of the ranks as warrant ranks, so a Corporal doesn't match up directly to a US Marine Corps Corporal, they are really "Marine Warrant Officer Class 3 - Corporal"

 

[Shamrock Holmes]

I do think that in the overwhelming majority of cases, we would be looking at wiggle room of a grade or two... but that's also why I would tend to have the Marines mirror Starfleet in being officer-heavy, to reduce some of these issues.

Uh? That's the first I've heard of it since we started talking about a pre-Khitomer force (the only version that this might be true, even for Starfleet), on the contrary, you've been pretty clear that the Marines are pretty much exclusively an NCO force with a token LT or two.

In reading up on some different systems used around the world, there's a part of me that wants to go in a wild direction with the TNG+ organization and make the Marines largely consisting of Warrant Officers... but not in the US definition of a Warrant Officer.

I'm not entirely against the idea, I've played around with a few different options along those lines recently. It should noted that the US Warrant Officer is the only type that can in certain circumstances bypass the enlisted ranks entirely, rather than replacing the senior Sergeant/Chief ranks in the rank tables as in other Anglophone militaries, and potentially replacing all NCO ranks in the field.

They didn't go to the Academy and become commissioned, but they aren't... non-commissioned either.

Actually, they mostly are, or at least were. The point of the warrant officer (outside police forces where everyone is technically a warrant officer, including all the commissioned officers) is to provide specialist experienced commanders.

The only military specialism that sometimes subverts this is pilots, because non-commissioned officers aren't allowed to be pilots so Warrant Officer is the entry rank.

In this case, a Warrant Officer is a commissioned rank that exists as it's own, separate structure more similar to South Africa.

South Africa appears to have both US-style Chief Warrant Officers in their Defence Force (essentially their DoD/Pentagon), but also a fairly conventional Commonwealth warrant officer structure within the NATO enlisted grade structure (replacing US E8 & E9 ranks) for the actual military services themselves.

This is like, EXACTLY what I was looking for... the Marine officers would have specific powers, which include being able to transfer Starfleet personnel to their command in certain circumstances.

Well, that's not a power that IRL warrant officers would have to the level that you're suggesting, except the US Chief Warrant Officers to a limited extent.

It actually helps the idea that they have a separate rank structure... there's no real reason we can't use the general names of the ranks as warrant ranks, so a Corporal doesn't match up directly to a US Marine Corps Corporal, they are really "Marine Warrant Officer Class 3 - Corporal"

I could see Corporal being the "nickname" for the most junior Warrant Officer rank (because the entry rank in the field is going to be outside this structure for the most part), but realistically it would either be Warrant Officer or Warrant Officer Class 3 or similar officially.

I've also played around a couple of more "occupational title" style warrant/specialist rank systems based on the LAPD, which Gene was very familiar with:

Crewman/Private (equiv. Police Offcr 1 Probationary): Initial acting rank within the service after completing academic training (a few weeks up two years depending), must be under the direction of a Warrant Officer or above at all times when on duty.
Assistant Warrant Officer (equiv. Police Offcr 1): Crewman/Privates are automatically promoted to this rank within the service after initial indoctrination in the field, must be under the direction of a Leading Warrant Officer or above at all times when on duty.
Warrant Officer (equiv. Police Offcr 2, one stripe): First permenant rank. AWOs are automatically to this rank upon completing their probationary period. Typically works under their own authority, but may be designation as an Acting Team Leader as needed.
Leading Warrant Officer (combines Police Officer 3 & 3+1, two stripes): First supervisory rank. Typically acts Team Leader, but may be designated as Acting Squad Leader/Section Leader as needed.
Senior Warrant Officer (equiv Sergeant 1, three stripes): Second supervisory rank. Typically acts as Squad Leader or below decks Section Officer of the Watch, but may be assigned as Acting Shift Commander, particularly on sub-unit level commands.
Master Warrant Officer (equiv Sergeant 2, four stripes or three stripes and rocker): First management rank. Typically acts as the Shift Commander or (Asst) Department Head on sub-unit commands. Generally provides leadership and advice within their own community and advices Command on said issues as needed.

 

[evilchumlee]

Uh? That's the first I've heard of it since we started talking about a pre-Khitomer force (the only version that this might be true, even for Starfleet), on the contrary, you've been pretty clear that the Marines are pretty much exclusively an NCO force with a token LT or two.

I may have been unclear about this, in trying to reconcile NCO's at all. I would generally lean towards the side of a more classic Trek, super officer heavy force.

In reality, I would really lean more towards making the Post-Khitomer force officer heavy to go with my whole notion of "Combat soldiers + Military observers/trainers".

Actually, they mostly are, or at least were. The point of the warrant officer (outside police forces where everyone is technically a warrant officer, including all the commissioned officers) is to provide specialist experienced commanders.

That's largely what I want the Post-Khitomer force to be. They're experienced, specialist ground combat soldiers. They will still handle things directly, just like Starfleet officers do, but are ALSO there to form the command corps for an expanded force composed of whatever available personnel they can muster.

The TNG+ Marine force, in what i'm thinking here, are a highly specialized force.

Well, that's not a power that IRL warrant officers would have to the level that you're suggesting, except the US Chief Warrant Officers to a limited extent.

The point was there that it may not be something that happens IRL, but it's also something that isn't impossible in an organization.

I could see Corporal being the "nickname" for the most junior Warrant Officer rank (because the entry rank in the field is going to be outside this structure for the most part), but realistically it would either be Warrant Officer or Warrant Officer Class 3 or similar officially.

I've also played around a couple of more "occupational title" style warrant/specialist rank systems based on the LAPD, which Gene was very familiar with:

Crewman/Private (equiv. Police Offcr 1 Probationary): Initial acting rank within the service after completing academic training (a few weeks up two years depending), must be under the direction of a Warrant Officer or above at all times when on duty.
Assistant Warrant Officer (equiv. Police Offcr 1): Crewman/Privates are automatically promoted to this rank within the service after initial indoctrination in the field, must be under the direction of a Leading Warrant Officer or above at all times when on duty.
Warrant Officer (equiv. Police Offcr 2, one stripe): First permenant rank. AWOs are automatically to this rank upon completing their probationary period. Typically works under their own authority, but may be designation as an Acting Team Leader as needed.
Leading Warrant Officer (combines Police Officer 3 & 3+1, two stripes): First supervisory rank. Typically acts Team Leader, but may be designated as Acting Squad Leader/Section Leader as needed.
Senior Warrant Officer (equiv Sergeant 1, three stripes): Second supervisory rank. Typically acts as Squad Leader or below decks Section Officer of the Watch, but may be assigned as Acting Shift Commander, particularly on sub-unit level commands.
Master Warrant Officer (equiv Sergeant 2, four stripes or three stripes and rocker): First management rank. Typically acts as the Shift Commander or (Asst) Department Head on sub-unit commands. Generally provides leadership and advice within their own community and advices Command on said issues as needed.

^ I like that.

I had an idea riffing off this this morning. If we take that this force is a highly specialized force, they will need to get experience... somewhere before getting their Warrant Officer rank.

I was thinking that Enlisted would generally just start out in Starfleet. Once they hit a certain rank, they can potentially shift over to the Marines and get the first Warrant rank. Starfleet Officers can too, and it's not seen as a demotion in certain circumstances, like an Ensign can shift to a Marine Leading Warrant Officer or some such, and it's at around that point where the Marine/Warrant Ranks get to be somewhat 1:1 with Starfleet commissioned ranks... Ensign is a rough equivalent to Leading Warrant, Lt. Jg is roughly a Senior Warrant, Lieutenant is roughly a Master. A Lt. Commander and above would be in the officer ranks.

There are still officer ranks within the Marine structure, which could potentially either come from Starfleet or ranking up out of the Warrant ranks. Given the generally small size of this force, I don't think we need a particularly large number of commissioned officers, and even fewer flag officers. I can see there being a rank of General, but... there's probably only a couple of them.

Like I feel like on the detachment level, on a ship/station, in this proposed rank system, the Master Warrant Officer would usually be the highest rank. I don't know that we need to full run of commission ranks in this case, so I kind of thing the commissioned ranks start at... Captain or Major? Maybe eliminate a Lt. Colonel spot to from Major to Colonel, and then... a General rank. MAYBE two although i'm not sure there's enough of a force to really have all that many? I think a streamlined rank structure works best here.

I'm thinking the TNG+ force works as something of a mini-branch.

EDIT - And yes I think the rank names are somewhat of a nickname, more owing to the traditions of the former force, although I also don't actually really see any problem with them using a rank like "Sergeant" as a Warrant Officer rank, given that no other Sergeants exist. There's nothing to confuse it with.

I do like to take a Warrant Officer as for all intents and purpose a commissioned officer, just through a different process. The real distinction is more so for branch/role... a Marine Warrant Officer isn't going to be serving on a ship ordering around officers, but also a Starfleet officer isn't going to be in a ground combat situation ordering around a Marine Warrant Officer*

*There are always exceptions

 

[Shamrock Holmes]

I may have been unclear about this, in trying to reconcile NCO's at all. I would generally lean towards the side of a more classic Trek, super officer heavy force.

What "classic trek" had a "super officer heavy force"?

At least outside of the Bridge, which is irrelevant to this debate anyway there were plenty of crewmen and specialists around, they just stayed in the background and we interacted with their supervisors (which makes sense as our protagonists were Senior Staff).

I had an idea riffing off this this morning. If we take that this force is a highly specialized force, they will need to get experience... somewhere before getting their Warrant Officer rank.

My concept is that they do more theory work and then qualify as a Warrant Officer after a period of time working under a Leading Warrant Officer as part of their team. That's essentially the way most police departments do it and it's also fairly similar to how Commonwealth navies handle training their midshipmen.

Starfleet Officers can too, and it's not seen as a demotion in certain circumstances, like an Ensign can shift to a Marine Leading Warrant Officer or some such, and it's at around that point where the Marine/Warrant Ranks get to be somewhat 1:1 with Starfleet commissioned ranks...

I could see an Ensign being assigned to assist for an LWO or an SWO as part of their indoc protocols but IMO permanent transfers would be with the expectation that an Ensign (particularly if they're transferring from Security/Tactical or Command) will be replacing a Marine Lieutenant as Mission Commander.

Ensign is a rough equivalent to Leading Warrant, Lt. Jg is roughly a Senior Warrant, Lieutenant is roughly a Master. A Lt. Commander and above would be in the officer ranks.

I'd potentially give you the first two in the short term, but they're going to be advancing to Marine Lieutenant as their next step, but Lieutenants are (Assistant) Department Heads, while staff officers might be slotted in as Master WO equivalents on support squads or detachments, generally line officers (Security/Tactical or Command) are still going to be treated as experienced officers, perhaps initially as the deputy or aide to the marine officer.

There are still officer ranks within the Marine structure, which could potentially either come from Starfleet or ranking up out of the Warrant ranks.

I suspect the preference would be up from the ranks as that way there's a more consistent approach, but Starfleet transfers do probably happen, particular during periods of high activity.

Given the generally small size of this force, I don't think we need a particularly large number of commissioned officers, and even fewer flag officers. I can see there being a rank of General, but... there's probably only a couple of them.

As I see the largest deployed sub-unit being a detachment that tops out at roughly the crew complement of Voyager under a Marine Major, then I'm fine with that for the TNG+ era.

Like I feel like on the detachment level, on a ship/station, in this proposed rank system, the Master Warrant Officer would usually be the highest rank.

Master Warrant Officer is the Detachment XO and handles the day-to-day admin so that the CO can concentrate on staying up-to-date on strategic operations throughout their zone.

That said, Iike all XOs, they can substitute for the CO and would promote directly to Lieutenant if desired.

I do like to take a Warrant Officer as for all intents and purpose a commissioned officer, just through a different process. The real distinction is more so for branch/role... a Marine Warrant Officer isn't going to be serving on a ship ordering around officers, but also a Starfleet officer isn't going to be in a ground combat situation ordering around a Marine Warrant Officer*

I'd say that depends on both the officer and the mission. There's some wiggle room for Starfleet junior officers (especially staff officers), but I still disagree that time-in-service can be discarded by default for senior line officers (command, security/tactical and engineers of LT and above).

 

[evilchumlee]

What "classic trek" had a "super officer heavy force"?

At least outside of the Bridge, which is irrelevant to this debate anyway there were plenty of crewmen and specialists around, they just stayed in the background and we interacted with their supervisors (which makes sense as our protagonists were Senior Staff).

The mentions of NCO's in Trek can be basically counted on one hand.

My concept is that they do more theory work and then qualify as a Warrant Officer after a period of time working under a Leading Warrant Officer as part of their team. That's essentially the way most police departments do it and it's also fairly similar to how Commonwealth navies handle training their midshipmen.

Sure that works.

I could see an Ensign being assigned to assist for an LWO or an SWO as part of their indoc protocols but IMO permanent transfers would be with the expectation that an Ensign (particularly if they're transferring from Security/Tactical or Command) will be replacing a Marine Lieutenant as Mission Commander.

I feel like Ensign and LWO in this case serve essentially the same function, given that i'm considering Warrant Officers essentially equal to Commissioned Officers.

I suspect the preference would be up from the ranks as that way there's a more consistent approach, but Starfleet transfers do probably happen, particular during periods of high activity.

The way i'm seeing this working in the TNG+ era is that there probably aren't going to be many WO1 and 2's. The people who end up here are likely most from Security/Tactical, choosing to transfer in and specialize in ground combat.

As I see the largest deployed sub-unit being a detachment that tops out at roughly the crew complement of Voyager under a Marine Major, then I'm fine with that for the TNG+ era.

Even that might be on the large size.

Master Warrant Officer is the Detachment XO and handles the day-to-day admin so that the CO can concentrate on staying up-to-date on strategic operations throughout their zone.

That said, Iike all XOs, they can substitute for the CO and would promote directly to Lieutenant if desired.

In what i've tried to establish here it feels like there are too many ranks. If the standard detachment is a 16 man team, do we need an officer above the MWO in the detachment?

I would think that by and large while not actively deployed on an operation, the officers would be more in a "central" location trying to coordinate the teams.

 

[Shamrock Holmes]

The mentions of NCO's in Trek can be basically counted on one hand.

That's only true of the term Petty Officer.

There are hundreds if not thousands of references to Crewmen or Yeoman and at least a couple of references to Specialists.

Janice Rand appeared in 6 spisodes of TOS plus TMP as an NCO.
Miles O'Brien appeared in 52 episodes of TNG and 157 episodes of DS9.
Simon Tarses, a Medical Department NCO, had an entire episode focused on him.
Several enlisted engineering crewmen appeared as recurring characters on DS9.
Most of the Maquis characters on VOY were either Crewmen or possibly NCOs.
Crewman Daniels and Crewman Cutler were regular recurring characters on Enterprise.

I feel like Ensign and LWO in this case serve essentially the same function, given that i'm considering Warrant Officers essentially equal to Commissioned Officers.

No, Ensigns are trained as managers, particularly in a multi-disclinary setting, whereas LWOs are focusing leading and mentoring inexperienced specialists.

The way i'm seeing this working in the TNG+ era is that there probably aren't going to be many WO1 and 2's. The people who end up here are likely most from Security/Tactical, choosing to transfer in and specialize in ground combat.

WO1 is certainly a fairly temporary thing, anyone who doesn't meet the requirement for promotion to WO2 would likely be assigned or separated from the service fairly quickly in peacetime/low activity periods, though might still be eligible for call-up via the Reserves System.

Even that might be on the large size.

OTOH, the only canonical example of something that could easily have been a Marine Detachment that we've seen in the field was that size at deployment.

In what i've tried to establish here it feels like there are too many ranks. If the standard detachment is a 16 man team, do we need an officer above the MWO in the detachment?

A detachment doesn't have 12-16 people, that's a squad.

A Detachment is a platoon to company-sized sub-unit of 50-150 formed around the nucleus of one or more pools of experienced squad members.

So, given that the minimum rank that's been shown in command of even the low end of that in regular service is a LCDR, a LT at the low end and a MJR at the high end for the marine side seems reasonable.

I would think that by and large while not actively deployed on an operation, the officers would be more in a "central" location trying to coordinate the teams.

Not entirely, but sometimes in the case of Master Warrant Officers and Majors and more often than not in the case of (Lieutenant) Colonels and above, particularly in peace time*.

* OTOH, the thirty thousand troops on the "Starfleet" transport ships referenced in Waltz (DS9) would have at least one flag/general officer (likely a Vice Admiral or Lieutenant General) assigned to command them.

 

[evilchumlee]

That's only true of the term Petty Officer.

There are hundreds if not thousands of references to Crewmen or Yeoman and at least a couple of references to Specialists.

Janice Rand appeared in 6 spisodes of TOS plus TMP as an NCO.
Miles O'Brien appeared in 52 episodes of TNG and 157 episodes of DS9.
Simon Tarses, a Medical Department NCO, had an entire episode focused on him.
Several enlisted engineering crewmen appeared as recurring characters on DS9.
Most of the Maquis characters on VOY were either Crewmen or possibly NCOs.
Crewman Daniels and Crewman Cutler were regular recurring characters on Enterprise.

Fair enough, they exist.

No, Ensigns are trained as managers, particularly in a multi-disclinary setting, whereas LWOs are focusing leading and mentoring inexperienced specialists.

That might be the disconnect here. I would see these as experienced, specialized special forces units. There shouldn't be inexperienced specialists there.

WO1 is certainly a fairly temporary thing, anyone who doesn't meet the requirement for promotion to WO2 would likely be assigned or separated from the service fairly quickly in peacetime/low activity periods, though might still be eligible for call-up via the Reserves System.

At that point I don't really see the need for a WO1 or 2, just have the lower NCO ranks be Starfleet.

This is really just a glorified sub-department. One would enter the department at WO, reassigned after a few lower NCO ranks. I suppose you could still have WO1 and 2 for alternate-alternate track people who may have experience but haven't been in Starfleet service (a low ranking but experienced Andorian Imperial Guardsman who wanted to transfer to Starfleet service?)

OTOH, the only canonical example of something that could easily have been a Marine Detachment that we've seen in the field was that size at deployment.

That was in wartime, so I would expect higher numbers.

We don't ever see a ground combat force the size of the Voyager crew on starships... so if these people exist on ships during peacetime, they are few in number.

A detachment doesn't have 12-16 people, that's a squad.

That's where there's a bit of a disconnect too. I'm not necessarily using US military terminology, because i'm not talking about the US military. I'm talking about 300 year future foreign military.

noun
noun: detachment; plural noun: detachments

Military
a group of troops, aircraft, or ships sent away on a separate mission.
"a detachment of Marines"

^ That's exactly what i'm seeing these as. A... squad of lets say 16 troops stationed aboard starships or stations in order to handle combat-related missions that would be beyond the scope of shipboard security, and/or form the command of a larger force when the situation demanded it of a larger ground combat force composed of personnel from said starship or station.

A Detachment is a platoon to company-sized sub-unit of 50-150 formed around the nucleus of one or more pools of experienced squad members.

So, given that the minimum rank that's been shown in command of even the low end of that in regular service is a LCDR, a LT at the low end and a MJR at the high end for the marine side seems reasonable.

Some of the general jargon notwithstanding, that all makes sense.

Not entirely, but sometimes in the case of Master Warrant Officers and Majors and more often than not in the case of (Lieutenant) Colonels and above, particularly in peace time*.

* OTOH, the thirty thousand troops on the "Starfleet" transport ships referenced in Waltz (DS9) would have at least one flag/general officer (likely a Vice Admiral or Lieutenant General) assigned to command them.

Something like the transports mentioned is where I think the Marines really come into play. Those probably aren't thirty thousand Marines but a good majority of fleet personnel reassigned to ground combat duty, with the Marines in command of them/augmenting the force.

I'm not sure how to tackle the issue of flag officers. The theory here is that this is a small force that expands when necessary, but the number of permanent personnel is fairly low. Still, they need the ability to expand when necessary. I'm not really sure what the flag officers would be doing during peacetime with far fewer troops.

Alot of this does stem from that idea that "Starfleet isn't a military, but can be when needed". It extends beyond just the fleet, but into ground combat as well. Starfleet normally doesn't have much in the way of combat soldiers... but can when needed.

At least in the TNG+ example. I find the idea for a Pre-Khitomer force overall less interesting to discuss only because I think by and large... yeah... you probably can just make it Space US Marines. I find trying to craft a "Not military, but also military" force that could potentially still bolt-on to canon to be the more interesting way to go. But also in that, while I think we can use how some modern militaries work as a reference and a guide, I don't think it's necessarily the bible for any of it needs to work.

 

[Shamrock Holmes]

That might be the disconnect here. I would see these as experienced, specialized special forces units. There shouldn't be inexperienced specialists there.

That's a logical impossibility in terms of the department as a whole, you don't become experienced without actually doing that thing. Even holodeck sims only take you so far (though they would accelerate the progression compared to IRL or even the earliest days of the original force.

At that point I don't really see the need for a WO1 or 2, just have the lower NCO ranks be Starfleet.

That's an option, though not my preference as cross-rating has been shown to produce inferior results compared to training up from the outset in that speciality in both maritime law enforcement and special operations IRL.

This is really just a glorified sub-department. One would enter the department at WO, reassigned after a few lower NCO ranks. I suppose you could still have WO1 and 2 for alternate-alternate track people who may have experience but haven't been in Starfleet service (a low ranking but experienced Andorian Imperial Guardsman who wanted to transfer to Starfleet service?)

Again, drawing your WOs exclusively from existing Starfleet personnel for your core leadership/cadre is not optimal, compared to training them from the beginning for that role.

That was in wartime, so I would expect higher numbers.

We don't ever see a ground combat force the size of the Voyager crew on starships... so if these people exist on ships during peacetime, they are few in number.

I don't see any reason why they couldn't exist in those sort of numbers, or at least be able to mobilise those sort of numbers from the nearest depot (starbase, member planet or colony) at reasonably short notice.

That's where there's a bit of a disconnect too. I'm not necessarily using US military terminology, because i'm not talking about the US military. I'm talking about 300 year future foreign military.

Neither am I, I'm referencing stuff that I've previously posted for this concept.

Something like the transports mentioned is where I think the Marines really come into play. Those probably aren't thirty thousand Marines but a good majority of fleet personnel reassigned to ground combat duty, with the Marines in command of them/augmenting the force.

I'd expect mostly Marines in the leadership roles of that force and at least some of the air support roles (so perhaps 10-25%), but the bulk of the junior ranks would be either regular Starfleet or seconded Reservists.

I'm not sure how to tackle the issue of flag officers.

There are a couple of options.

Still, they need the ability to expand when necessary. I'm not really sure what the flag officers would be doing during peacetime with far fewer troops.

I suspect most of the flag officers are posted as regional leadership in Starfleet Intelligence and perhaps Starfleet Security during wartime, with the rest being loaned/transferred from the Reservists (in this preference would be given to ex-Marines).

There's probably at least one Brigadier or Major General within Starfleet Training Command and at least a couple of Colonels at Starfleet Academy itself.

At least in the TNG+ example. I find the idea for a Pre-Khitomer force overall less interesting to discuss only because I think by and large... yeah... you probably can just make it Space US Marines.

I still find it somewhat interesting to speculate on, if only because the USMC have gone through several different itenerations over their existence, particularly since Star Trek began, but I don't entirely disagree.

 

[Robert Bruce Scott]

Actually, they mostly are, or at least were. The point of the warrant officer (outside police forces where everyone is technically a warrant officer, including all the commissioned officers) is to provide specialist experienced commanders.

The only military specialism that sometimes subverts this is pilots, because non-commissioned officers aren't allowed to be pilots so Warrant Officer is the entry rank.

I had a friend who served as a Warrant Officer in WWII and Korea. He was a quartermaster and had authority over NCOs. He did not have authority over commissioned officers, but he only answered to the officers who were in his chain of command. He had very broad authority and could pretty much tell any officer, including flag officers (outside of his chain of command) to go jump in the lake.

He had no authority over them, but they had no authority over him and he did have the requisite authority to do his job. So a general could shout at him all day, but if his requisition for supplies was not legitimate, Grimur would not release the supplies and the general would just have to take the issue further up the chain of command.

I don't use warrant officers for the marine service in Star Beagle Adventures, but there is a Star Fleet warrant officer, a martial arts expert who was brought in to train a generation of martial arts trainers at Star Fleet Academy. He has requisite authority to do his job, meaning that an admiral taking training from him would have to do as the warrant officer orders or drop the course.

 

[evilchumlee]

That's a logical impossibility in terms of the department as a whole, you don't become experienced without actually doing that thing. Even holodeck sims only take you so far (though they would accelerate the progression compared to IRL or even the earliest days of the original force.

True but at the same point, there would be long periods in the Federation where... they aren't doing that thing because it's peacetime. They train for it. I suppose rather than phrasing it as experienced specialists it's more highly trained specialists.

That's an option, though not my preference as cross-rating has been shown to produce inferior results compared to training up from the outset in that speciality in both maritime law enforcement and special operations IRL.

That's fair. I could see something of a combination of the two.

This is where I honestly don't know so i'll ask... would not a Warrant Officer be of a higher experience level than a Private/Crewman? Would it be that someone entering the service as a WO1 had gone through some specialized training/academy, whereas the Crewman enlisted and went through basic training?

If that is the case then... yeah I get WO1 and 2 in addition to cross rating from the fleet enlisted.

I don't see any reason why they couldn't exist in those sort of numbers, or at least be able to mobilise those sort of numbers from the nearest depot (starbase, member planet or colony) at reasonably short notice.

For one, i'm not sure the Federation would want to keep a standing combat force like that out of sheer ideology (and potentially PR... they even come with creative names for ship types to not sound militaryish).

For two, Khitomer might even allow a force like that to be permanent.

The third is just... any ship we have seen hasn't had them. For the big hero ones, easily explained away. Other ships it's easy enough to give "Well there's like, 16 dudes so we just didn't see them". Having the entire Voyager crew is a bit more difficult to handwave away short of them being on dedicated vessels/stations... which kind of loops back to point 1.

I'd expect mostly Marines in the leadership roles of that force and at least some of the air support roles (so perhaps 10-25%), but the bulk of the junior ranks would be either regular Starfleet or seconded Reservists.

I agree with you on that. That's actually my whole thing.

We only really diverge there when we bring the ranks into it, and I get it, but by and large I think that Marines would have the command here even if some of the Starfleet personnel were not from junior ranks. I still think it would be a fairly rare situation, and they would certainly attempt to use people in the best possibly capacity, but if they're in a situation where the Marines get a bunch of Crewman and an Ensign assigned to them, one of the -inset level of Warrant Officer- is in command of that unit, even if the Ensign on paper outranks the Warrant Officer, they would still fall under their command if the situation required it. If the Marines could utilize the Ensign in a different way more commiserate with rank.

I suspect most of the flag officers are posted as regional leadership in Starfleet Intelligence and perhaps Starfleet Security during wartime, with the rest being loaned/transferred from the Reservists (in this preference would be given to ex-Marines).

That makes a good amount of sense, especially the Reservists part. I'm still not sure i'm totally into the idea of specifically a "Federation Reserve" thing, but that's just details. I lean more towards the reservist type thing being straight up member world military forces.

That also factors into why i'm fairly "meh" on lower enlisted ranks, figuring most of these dedicated combat soldiers would gain experience through enlistment in their member worlds military forces and then transfer to Starfleet. The Starfleet Marines would be an elite force of the best.

There's probably at least one Brigadier or Major General within Starfleet Training Command and at least a couple of Colonels at Starfleet Academy itself.

Potentially yeah. Colonel would roughly analogous to a Starfleet Captain I would think, and there's definitely quite a few Captains around the Academy.

Would stand to reason they have their own training facility as well. I kind of like the idea of something like West Point surviving into the 24th century, albeit repurposed obviously from a US Army facility to a Federation/Starfleet one.

I still find it somewhat interesting to speculate on, if only because the USMC have gone through several different itenerations over their existence, particularly since Star Trek began, but I don't entirely disagree.

Yeah for sure. I still think there would be quite a few differences just given that it's a multi-national organization in the future... it's perhaps more interesting in the lens of how it changes post-Khitomer, what is abandoned and what stays.

I have a pretty well developed notion of what happened in general Post-Khitomer to everyone, and the theme is largely that the Big Three agreed to largely disarm and it's a fairly draconian agreement... and they all spend the next 70 years or so trying to find all the loopholes possible to sidestep it whenever they can. The Federation tries to act in good faith for the most part, while definitely still trying to rules lawyer everything (at least in the more public eye. On the flag level of Starfleet, they tend to care less and will flagrantly break any rule they think they can get away with.)

I can see a section of the Accords establishing a fairly hard limit on combat troops, especially at a federal level. Starfleet basically says "Ok, we will disband our Marine Corps. We don't have combat troops now. We're just going to reorganize our security forces. To provide... security."

The Klingons just move everything to the Great Houses. The Klingon Empire doesn't really much of a military at all then. The Accords doesn't put as much of a limit on local defense forces... so now the Great Houses just have huge militaries under their direct authority rather than the Empire.

The Romulans just... kind of ignore it and hermit up for a century. It's impossible to confirm or deny if they are following treaty stipulations or not.

(off topic but since i'm on the Accords... I like to use the Accords to explain why Starfleet keeps so many older ships around. I think the Accords put a limit on new ship construction, which manifests as a limited on new warp cores. It doesn't necessarily regulate the number of vessels that can be fielded, it regulates the number of new warp cores that can be built. So if an ship is still AT ALL workable, they keep it, because it's probably more efficient to just try to upgrade the ship as they can rather than yank the warp core out and build a new ship around it, or at the very least you end up with the Kitbash ships, because they were forced to stick together a bunch of components that would have systems compatible with that generation of warp core. Also makes sense why all the ships at Athon Prime were non-operational... museum ships shouldn't be hogging up a warp core, so they yanked them out for other uses.)

 

[Shamrock Holmes]

True but at the same point, there would be long periods in the Federation where... they aren't doing that thing because it's peacetime. They train for it. I suppose rather than phrasing it as experienced specialists it's more highly trained specialists.

That's fair.

That's fair. I could see something of a combination of the two.

This is where I honestly don't know so i'll ask... would not a Warrant Officer be of a higher experience level than a Private/Crewman? Would it be that someone entering the service as a WO1 had gone through some specialized training/academy, whereas the Crewman enlisted and went through basic training?

Well, yes. Kinda.

Crewman/Private (equiv. Police Offcr 1 Probationary): Initial acting rank within the service after completing academic training (a few weeks up two years depending), must be under the direction of a Warrant Officer or above at all times when on duty.
Crewman/Assistant Warrant Officer (equiv. Police Offcr 1): Crewman/Privates are automatically promoted to this rank within the service after initial indoctrination in the field, must be under the direction of a Leading Warrant Officer or above at all times when on duty.

Realistically, these are mostly the same rank, just slightly different in protocol, either way they are exclusively subordinate personnel, contrary to below:

Warrant Officer/WO1 (equiv. Police Offcr 2, one stripe): First permanant rank. AWOs are automatically to this rank upon completing their probationary period. Typically works under their own authority, but may be designation as an Acting Team Leader as needed.
Leading Warrant Officer/WO2 (combines Police Officer 3 & 3+1, two stripes): First supervisory rank. Typically acts Team Leader, but may be designated as Acting Squad Leader/Section Leader as needed.

The third is just... any ship we have seen hasn't had them. For the big hero ones, easily explained away. Other ships it's easy enough to give "Well there's like, 16 dudes so we just didn't see them". Having the entire Voyager crew is a bit more difficult to handwave away short of them being on dedicated vessels/stations... which kind of loops back to point 1.

IMO, there are hundreds of personnel on the Enterprise-D that we never saw, and it's a canonical fact that the typical compliment is only a fraction of the total capacity.

but if they're in a situation where the Marines get a bunch of Crewman and an Ensign assigned to them, one of the -inset level of Warrant Officer- is in command of that unit, even if the Ensign on paper outranks the Warrant Officer, they would still fall under their command if the situation required it.

Up to a point, yeah.

That makes a good amount of sense, especially the Reservists part. I'm still not sure i'm totally into the idea of specifically a "Federation Reserve" thing, but that's just details. I lean more towards the reservist type thing being straight up member world military forces.

The Federation Reserves Forces are essentially a shorthand for the legal structure that Starfleet Command would use to authorise and deploy member forces in support of Starfleet goals rather than a distinct force. I could have called it "Mobilization from Member Planetary and Systems Forces" instead, but that would get clunky real fast?

That also factors into why i'm fairly "meh" on lower enlisted ranks, figuring most of these dedicated combat soldiers would gain experience through enlistment in their member worlds military forces and then transfer to Starfleet.

That's another option in practical terms but there needs to be an agreed structure anyway, hence why STANAG 2116 and similar regulations exist IRL.

The Starfleet Marines would be an elite force of the best.

Within their own sphere, yeah.

I can see a section of the Accords establishing a fairly hard limit on combat troops, especially at a federal level. Starfleet basically says "Ok, we will disband our Marine Corps. We don't have combat troops now. We're just going to reorganize our security forces. To provide... security."

Pretty much.

The Accords doesn't put as much of a limit on local defense forces...

Hence the Federation Reserve Forces System.

(off topic but since i'm on the Accords... I like to use the Accords to explain why Starfleet keeps so many older ships around. I think the Accords put a limit on new ship construction, which manifests as a limited on new warp cores. It doesn't necessarily regulate the number of vessels that can be fielded, it regulates the number of new warp cores that can be built.

That's probably about as good an "in-universe" explanation we're ever likely to get.

 

[evilchumlee]

IMO, there are hundreds of personnel on the Enterprise-D that we never saw, and it's a canonical fact that the typical compliment is only a fraction of the total capacity.

I can excuse alot of things as "we just never saw them", but in this specific case there are too many times when we should have seen them if they were present.

I don't doubt that Galaxy-Class ships could have them. Maybe even alot of them. Just the Enterprise didn't have them, which does make an amount of sense given it's general mission profile. It was largely a "shaking and hands and kissing babies" vessel. The very existence of these Marines... ahem... "Advanced Tactical Officers"... is a legal gray area that would probably be best to not have advertised on your most visible vessel...

Up to a point, yeah.

I think i'm satisfied with that.

I'm really seeing it in more of a situation of "We need x job done, and we have y number of people". It feels incredibly inefficient to have access to somebody who is capable of doing x job, but they don't use for x job because it would be "below his rank". It might not be the ideal situation, nor is it a permanent situation, but on some occasions it may well be an "it is what it is" situation.

The Federation Reserves Forces are essentially a shorthand for the legal structure that Starfleet Command would use to authorise and deploy member forces in support of Starfleet goals rather than a distinct force. I could have called it "Mobilization from Member Planetary and Systems Forces" instead, but that would get clunky real fast?

^ works for me.

I had a name for this at some point, and it's slipping my mind at the moment. I do very much like the distinction of Federation not Starfleet. These are non-Starfleet forces that simply have a mechanism to be integrated into Starfleet service when necessary.

With an eye towards canon, this is how i've always interpreted the line from DS9 where it was stated the Bajoran Militia would need to be "integrated into Starfleet". They aren't talking about literally just turning everyone into the Bajoran Militia into Starfleet officers and completely absorbing the organization... they're just integrating into into the larger command... in this case for the purposes of discussion, they're being integrated into the Reserves.

That's another option in practical terms but there needs to be an agreed structure anyway, hence why STANAG 2116 and similar regulations exist IRL.

Oh yeah that makes total sense.

There absolutely needs to be some kind of standardization / structure for this. I just question if the specific organization of the Marines needs to actually have the lower ranks. It seems that they would be recruiting from the Reserve forces or through Starfleet directly.

I have been reading up and realize there are actually more subtle mentions of NCO's in Trek than I had thought. We even have a glimpse of how they would code them... Specialist Alfonse Pacelli was a "Support N/C 4" - Specialist Data Flow Systems and identified as "Specialist Grade 6", and also noted that he graduated from the "Starfleet Technical Services Academy".

That gives me a pretty good idea that we list NCO's by "N/C -grade-" although... the system also gets alittle wonky because we know Daniel Kwan was a Lieutenant JG... and referred to as "Specialist Grade 5". Walter Pierce was a full Lieutenant, but also "Specialist Grade 5". Darien Wallace was a full Lieutenant and a "Specialist Grade 3". Lois Eckridge was an Ensign and a "Specialist Grade 3"

"Specialist" seems to hold a different meaning in Starfleet and is divorced from NCO ranks. We have a list of Officers who are officially "Specialist". It does somewhat make me feel like my interpretation may be closer to how it works in Starfleet... where Specialist Grade may be actually more important to a point that rank, and it's entirely possible for one of lower rank to have a higher Specialist rating than someone of higher rank in the same field... so if we were putting together a Warp Diagnostics Team together and we had a Lieutenant Specialist Grade 3 Warp Diagnostics and a Lieutenant JG Specialist Grade 5 Warp Diagnostics... Specialist Grade may be weighed more heavily than rank... (although I would guess a Lt. Commander Specialist Grade 3 would probably still take command of the Lt JG Grade 5)

The plus is that the term and rating for "Specialist" seems to have a fairly consistent usage, so that can be something potentially easily applied to standardizing reserve forces. And then we have "N/C" for "Noncom", so it's easy enough to establish a Starfleet rating system there...

This all ALSO makes me circle back to thinking... the difference between NCO and Officer may not be the same as the difference IRL. The idea that NCO's are Specialists trained in a given field while Officers are trained in management seems to contradict what we actually know about Starfleet. NCO's and Officers both train into Specialist roles.

But let's just assume they are essentially the same. Here's a question... how could the Reserves align if member worlds have completely different organization? Let's say Vulcan does not have NCO's. Every Vulcan in service to the Vulcan High Command is an officer. There is one single rank structure. Does the lowest Vulcan rank coincide with the lowest Starfleet rank of Crewman, or the lowest officer rank of Ensign? Or might the lowest Vulcan rank be something more of a Warrant Officer?

What if the Andorian Imperial Guard had a rank structure based more on like, noble titles and somewhat feudalistic system? Would "Andorian Man-at-Arms" be equivalent to "Crewman"?

 

[Shamrock Holmes]

With an eye towards canon, this is how i've always interpreted the line from DS9 where it was stated the Bajoran Militia would need to be "integrated into Starfleet". They aren't talking about literally just turning everyone into the Bajoran Militia into Starfleet officers and completely absorbing the organization... they're just integrating into into the larger command... in this case for the purposes of discussion, they're being integrated into the Reserves.

I figure that they have the option of transferring into Starfleet full-time, but I agree that most would be integrated as Reservists.

There absolutely needs to be some kind of standardization / structure for this. I just question if the specific organization of the Marines needs to actually have the lower ranks. It seems that they would be recruiting from the Reserve forces or through Starfleet directly.

As you've noted before, sometimes they don't have the time to wait, so have to move with the squads they've got and they need to train up people to be able to do that hence the need for lower-ranked Marines.

That said, I've always thought that anything above a squad (ie that needs an officer) would also be mostly non-Marines.

"Specialist" seems to hold a different meaning in Starfleet and is divorced from NCO ranks.

To an extent, though given that the lowest Specialist Grade given for officers is Grade 3, then Warrant Officers could be Grade 1, with Senior and Master Warrant Officers holding at least Grade 2 depending on billet.

This all ALSO makes me circle back to thinking... the difference between NCO and Officer may not be the same as the difference IRL. The idea that NCO's are Specialists trained in a given field while Officers are trained in management seems to contradict what we actually know about Starfleet. NCO's and Officers both train into Specialist roles.

NCOs only train in a particular specialism, at least initially, while commissioned officers (at least line officers and to a degree engineering officers) train for a broad range of roles.

The only confirmed exception in Starfleet is medical officers, but honestly given the breadth of topics involved it's basically a technicality IMO.

But let's just assume they are essentially the same. Here's a question... how could the Reserves align if member worlds have completely different organization? Let's say Vulcan does not have NCO's. Every Vulcan in service to the Vulcan High Command is an officer. There is one single rank structure. Does the lowest Vulcan rank coincide with the lowest Starfleet rank of Crewman, or the lowest officer rank of Ensign? Or might the lowest Vulcan rank be something more of a Warrant Officer?

The lowest rank that we know of is sublieutent, which is logically equivalent to a Ensign, however their ranks otherwise mirror Romulan ones which also have the rank of uhlan which is historically equivalent to a crewman or private, though frankly Warrant Officer seems more plausible given that the former uhlan made it to high political office.

What if the Andorian Imperial Guard had a rank structure based more on like, noble titles and somewhat feudalistic system? Would "Andorian Man-at-Arms" be equivalent to "Crewman"?

Man-at-Arms (and the naval Master-at-Arms rating that grew out of it) is essentially a de facto NCO or Warrant Officer as they led the common soldiers/sailors of their lord, lady or commanding officer.

 

[evilchumlee]

I figure that they have the option of transferring into Starfleet full-time, but I agree that most would be integrated as Reservists.

I think there's sort of three things going. I do think that all the Federation members are required to contribute an amount of resources to Starfleet (that doesn't necessarily mean Starfleet moves in and just claims a portion of their fleet... "resources" can mean alot of things.), Federation members can ALSO contribute more to Starfleet than required, if they so choose. And then, their local forces are integrated into the Reservist system.

As you've noted before, sometimes they don't have the time to wait, so have to move with the squads they've got and they need to train up people to be able to do that hence the need for lower-ranked Marines.

That said, I've always thought that anything above a squad (ie that needs an officer) would also be mostly non-Marines.

Also my thinking. Yeah they need some lower ranks so that people can get experience... but given the somewhat non-traditional organization here, I don't think they necessarily need lower Marine ranks.

I see the system working in such a way that the Marines are a sub-department of... whatever you want to label the Fleet Tactical/Security Department. I don't think it should be under Starfleet Security proper... I prefer Starfleet Security to be more of a law enforcement/intelligence/counterterrorism type organization and the "Tactical / Security" being the arm of Starfleet responsible for the more military oriented duties. Ship/Station Security Officers would be under Tactical/Security because while they perform some local law enforcement duties, they're going to be the ones to undetake military operations and act as soldiers when required, whereas Starfleet Security would be focused on things like the JAG and what not.

So given that, i'm not sure we need a completely separate rank structure. Realistically, we don't need a different one at all... it's really overcomplicating the whole thing out of a desire to use a slightly different aesthetic, and use some surface military ranks.

The vast majority of Marines would be coming from Tactical / Security. I'm not sure where exactly along the chain they transfer into the Warrant Officer ranks of the Marines... which isn't as drastic here as transferring to a different branch of service. It's REALLY just a different role within the department they are already in, they just get fancy, unique ranks and different training. (That's not entirely true... while most are probably drawn from the Security Officers, they would have people from other disciplines, so engineers and the like would end up in there as well.)

Warrant Officers seem to make sense for this... they are specialists in a single role; ground combat. That may be more generalist that one might see in a modern military, but I think through the lens of Starfleet, it makes sense.

Here's another area where i'm more asking a question because I don't know... just based on my reading... there isn't a point where one would just get promoted to Warrant Officer, correct? Like there's no "Reach x rank, promotion to Warrant Officer". A Warrant Officer is more of a situation of "Meets x service criteria, has proven expertise in field". From what I can see, there doesn't seem to be a required rank prior to applying to be a Warrant Officer. In this case especially, I think it would probably occur earlier that it probably would in a modern military.

As i'm reading more about Warrant Officers just in general, there is still a strong part of me that wants to go with my initial gut and make these Warrant Officers by and large equal to Commissioned Officers... in certain circumstances, that being in the context of a ground combat situation. The whole point of making them Warrant Officers is that they are specially trained to deal with ground combat, and in that context it seems entirely reasonable that they would be charge of ground combat situations.

I understand it's... non-traditional, but I also think it makes practical sense, as with everything here to a point. They're above all NCO's, and then i'm seeing it make sense for some of the Warrant ranks to be equivalent to Junior Officers. Going with your 6-level organization, I feel like by say... WO5 and 6, that could well be straight up analogous to Ensign and Lt. Jg. (when in the appropriate situation).

Certainly have officers as well, obviously. I do think we need generally less of them, with the majority of the Marines being the Warrant ranks, and fairly small officer corps.

To an extent, though given that the lowest Specialist Grade given for officers is Grade 3, then Warrant Officers could be Grade 1, with Senior and Master Warrant Officers holding at least Grade 2 depending on billet.

That could make sense. It feels like it's probably not the spirit of what they were going for with that, but I can see it making sense... although we do at least one NCO with a higher Specialist Grade.

NCOs only train in a particular specialism, at least initially, while commissioned officers (at least line officers and to a degree engineering officers) train for a broad range of roles.

The only confirmed exception in Starfleet is medical officers, but honestly given the breadth of topics involved it's basically a technicality IMO.

That's fair, although our most well known NCO O'Brian is kind of the outlier there... we know he has been involved in some security capacity, having been in the ground war with the Cardassians. He's been a Chief Tactical Officer, he started out as Conn in early TNG, Transporter Chief, and Chief of Ops...

I REALLY stand by the observation that NCO's just don't quite work the same the way do in the modern day. They be more similar than I was originally trying to portray, but I think there are some fairly significant differences.

With the medical officers... that doesn't actually seem to be the case. I'm assuming Troi is in the medical department, but both Crusher and Troi had bridge/command training. They're heavily specialized in their field but they definitely do have other training.

The lowest rank that we know of is sublieutent, which is logically equivalent to a Ensign, however their ranks otherwise mirror Romulan ones which also have the rank of uhlan which is historically equivalent to a crewman or private, though frankly Warrant Officer seems more plausible given that the former uhlan made it to high political office.

That's the thing... what if they just... don't have NCO ranks?

I suppose if everyone in the Vulcan forces received the equivalent of officer training they would just be... officers.

Man-at-Arms (and the naval Master-at-Arms rating that grew out of it) is essentially a de facto NCO or Warrant Officer as they led the common soldiers/sailors of their lord, lady or commanding officer.

You're killing me with the terminology. I tried to think of something random.

Here's the total hypothetical. Pulling it directly out of my ass.

The Andorians have a somewhat feudal military system with compulsory military service for all. They don't have formal lower ranks, local forces report to their Lord who commands them directly and designating leaders within his force as he sees fit.

Andorian forces are called up in the Reserves system. I guess a rankless conscripted soldier is just... the lowest enlisted rank?

 

[Shamrock Holmes]

Also my thinking. Yeah they need some lower ranks so that people can get experience... but given the somewhat non-traditional organization here, I don't think they necessarily need lower Marine ranks.

If there are no lower ranks, then there's no distinction.

I don't think it should be under Starfleet Security proper... I prefer Starfleet Security to be more of a law enforcement/intelligence/counterterrorism type organization

No, that's Starfleet Intelligence.

and the "Tactical / Security" being the arm of Starfleet responsible for the more military oriented duties.

Starfleet Security would be focused on things like the JAG and what not.

In the field on board starships and to a certain extent on bases, yes. But there needs to be an agency to coordinate base fence and force protection on a fleet-level and that's Starfleet Security.

So given that, i'm not sure we need a completely separate rank structure.

IMO, if you're not going to do it properly, then there's no point in doing it all.

The vast majority of Marines would be coming from Tactical / Security. I'm not sure where exactly along the chain they transfer into the Warrant Officer ranks of the Marines... which isn't as drastic here as transferring to a different branch of service.

The vast majority of junior personnel would be transfers from other departments and services, initially Security/Tactical with a few pilots and engineers for flavour, particularly in complex but small operations.

I would assume that they attend Warrant Officer School/Training if they decide to transfer to the Marines for the duration of their service, rather than returning to their official billet at the end of the mission.

Warrant Officers seem to make sense for this... they are specialists in a single role; ground combat. That may be more generalist that one might see in a modern military, but I think through the lens of Starfleet, it makes sense.

Marine Warrant Officers are specialists in ground combat, there almost certainly Aviation Warrant Officers flying some of support craft and honestly I'd be fine with replacing (Chief) Petty Officers with Warrant Officers generally in Starfleet service as the message should be the same regardless.

Here's another area where i'm more asking a question because I don't know... just based on my reading... there isn't a point where one would just get promoted to Warrant Officer, correct?

With the exception of Aviation Warrant Officers in the US Army (and even they complete a fairly grueling training regime comparable to many non-US commissioned officer programs), prospective warrant officers of either type have years of service experience before applying.

From what I can see, there doesn't seem to be a required rank prior to applying to be a Warrant Officer.

Really?

Because again apart from Aviation Warrant Officers who can be direct entry), every warrant officer in US or Commonwealth service at least some enlisted service.

As i'm reading more about Warrant Officers just in general, there is still a strong part of me that wants to go with my initial gut and make these Warrant Officers by and large equal to Commissioned Officers...

If they're exclusively equal to commissioned officers, then there's zero point in having more than one (equivalent to an Ensign) and just buying into the academic elitest BS of early TNG, PRO and DSC/SNW.

I understand it's... non-traditional, but I also think it makes practical sense, as with everything here to a point. They're above all NCO's,

Possibly or as noted above regular Starfleet has them as well instead (perhaps as Engineering Officer, Security Officer, Flying Officer et al).

and then i'm seeing it make sense for some of the Warrant ranks to be equivalent to Junior Officers. Going with your 6-level organization, I feel like by say... WO5 and 6, that could well be straight up analogous to Ensign and Lt. Jg. (when in the appropriate situation).

At least to an extent.

Certainly have officers as well, obviously. I do think we need generally less of them, with the majority of the Marines being the Warrant ranks, and fairly small officer corps.

Agreed.

That could make sense. It feels like it's probably not the spirit of what they were going for with that, but I can see it making sense... although we do at least one NCO with a higher Specialist Grade.

Maybe he did a tour as an Academy instructor or something, particular as he was otherwise implied to be a Crewman (or at least a Petty Officer), rather than a Chief.

That's fair, although our most well known NCO O'Brian is kind of the outlier there... we know he has been involved in some security capacity, having been in the ground war with the Cardassians. He's been a Chief Tactical Officer, he started out as Conn in early TNG, Transporter Chief, and Chief of Ops...

Well, as you yourself regularly point out, tactical/security officers would have been acting as "soldiers" during the Cardassian War and a Chief Petty Officer (and even better a Senior or Master Warrant) could reasonably act as Department Head if several senior officers had been KIA.

I REALLY stand by the observation that NCO's just don't quite work the same the way do in the modern day. They be more similar than I was originally trying to portray, but I think there are some fairly significant differences.

The only inherent difference is that we can reasonably assume that coming in as "other than commissioned" isn't a barrier to becoming commissioned and at least some of the social stigma and seperation is missing.

With the medical officers... that doesn't actually seem to be the case. I'm assuming Troi is in the medical department, but both Crusher and Troi had bridge/command training. They're heavily specialized in their field but they definitely do have other training.

Yeah, but the bridge/command training was explicitly something that wasn't a required part of their training or even needed for career progression.

That's the thing... what if they just... don't have NCO ranks?

I suppose if everyone in the Vulcan forces received the equivalent of officer training they would just be... officers.

I mean, I could believe that Vulcans actually are the academically elitest douches that many fans insist that Starfleet is overall. YMMV.