Brainstorm - Starfleet Marines (alittle different)

[fireproof78]

I prefer to leave "Starfleet Intelligence" as just that. They would have internal organizational divisions and what not, but to basically anyone on the outside, they're just "Starfleet Intelligence".

Which is why Section 31 doesn't bother me. 31 needs legitimate arms to accomplish their goals at times, and falling under the auspices of Intelligence makes as much sense as others. In Shatner's novels there was another Division that was supposedly a backwater colonial administration but really a front for more covert operations to preserve the security of the Federation. In many real world intelligence and military intelligence divisions there are often two jobs; the one you talk about and the one you can't. Starfleet Itelligence wouldn't surprise me to have something similar, especially with projects like the Pegasus project.

I don't disagree, which is why in-universe Starfleet ended up being the name of the overall fleet, but the fact that the combined fleet at all suggests that there were some compromises...

Maybe that's were the whole NCO ranks gets adjusted.

 

[evilchumlee]

Well, honestly this is kinda where the original version of the force in question might be different from what it became post-Khitomer, while there would still be some differences in exact composition (particularly on the Logistics side, but perhaps the HQ side to an extent) the 23rd Century version of that was more openly military might have been more similar to US-style Marines in role and scope.

I think that is exactly where i'm at.

We kind of skirted the Khitomer issue, but it is kind of important in the grand scheme.

I still think that the Marines would be a relatively small organization, given that even in the 23rd century Starfleet still touts itself as primarily a scientific and exploration force. But I do I think that the 23rd century Marines are definitely much closer to a US Marine Corps role and scope in this era.

Post-Khitomer, I do think they become much more akin to what we would call Commandos or Special Forces. They just keep the Marine name for the sake of tradition.

I have to skirt into my general views of what I think happened with Khitomer. It was clearly a fairly massive arms limitation treaty between the Federation, Klingons and Romulans. I ALSO think that all three sides tried to skirt the line and find gray areas, loopholes, etc. to still have more than they are maybe supposed to have. Starfleet rejiggering the size and scope of the Marines was probably skirting the line of what they were supposed to do. (I love the Khitomer Accords topic... can go on forever on it... the Klingons and Romulans I think had their own tactics to skirt the Accords)

Whereas post-Khitomer, much of the bulk of the force was demobilised/shifted to "Federation Reserve Forces" with the remainer being reassigned to support the "security, tactical and intelligence directorate" within Starfleet proper as an augmented "rapid response force".

I do think we're on the same wavelength. I had originally had the former-Marines reorganized under the Security/Tactical Division of the fleet (which would be distinct from "Starfleet Security")... which in an of itself may have already been a reorganization due to Khitomer, whereas there may have been distinct flag-level Security and Tactical divisions within the fleet, condensed into a single division.

I actually kind of like the idea that in the 24th century Post-Khitomer era, "Marines" is really more a colloquial/traditional name. They are officially called something else but everyone, including themselves, call them Marines and they did retain much of the traditions of the former Starfleet Marines.

"Federation Reserve Forces" works. I tend to think the Federation doesn't actually have combat forces outside of Starfleet. I always envisioned the "Federation military" beyond Starfleet being more of a NATO-like situation. The Marine personnel who were cut were either absorbed into other departments of Starfleet or went into service on their homeworlds.

I don't disagree, which is why in-universe Starfleet ended up being the name of the overall fleet, but the fact that the combined fleet at all suggests that there were some compromises...

... such as giving the credit for the parts of the organisation that they mostly don't really want to have to the other guys, particularly as the only source unit that we know is formally named Commandos (rather than merely have that training and role is the human Royal Marine Commandos).

It's definitely a valid take.

I like to think that Starfleet being the name of the combined fleet was due to a compromise... the compromise being Earth providing the backbone of the fleet, basically transferring command of Starfleet to Federation control largely en masse, keeping just a small fleet for itself.

The other powers were basically like, "Sold. You want to do most of the work and shoulder most of the cost? Deal." While in the meantime, they were providing what was basically the minimum agreed upon support to the new Federation Starfleet, keeping the lions share of their forces to themselves.

Earth didn't really care because it was kind of win-win. Earth essentially controlled the Federation anyway, so it wasn't really much of a stretch to just go for it.

Which is why Section 31 doesn't bother me. 31 needs legitimate arms to accomplish their goals at times, and falling under the auspices of Intelligence makes as much sense as others.

Yeah honestly it's something I don't hate about S31 in Discovery, in that S31 did start out as a legitimate arm of Starfleet Intelligence... after it disbanded, it.. didn't really. It just went unofficial.

Maybe that's were the whole NCO ranks gets adjusted.

Makes sense.

We don't know the military organizational structure of Vulcan, Andor and Tellar. Our whole concept of NCO's might be... well... alien to them. The Vulcans may simply assume that anyone who joins the fleet will go through the Science Academy, and will logically do the job that needs to be done. The Andorians may be a straight meritocracy, it doesn't matter what school you went to you how you ended up in the military... prove your worth and you get promoted. The Tellarites may structure their command based on who can make the better argument that they are in command.

 

[fireproof78]

I still think that the Marines would be a relatively small organization, given that even in the 23rd century Starfleet still touts itself as primarily a scientific and exploration force. But I do I think that the 23rd century Marines are definitely much closer to a US Marine Corps role and scope in this era.

I rely greatly on Heinlein and Space Cadet when he discusses the difference between the Marines and Solar Patrol. The Patrol doesn't utilize NCOs at all, but officers, junior officers and cadets. The Marines are a little more distinct, which I don't think is the idea here, but they have their own traditions just like the Patrol does.

The Marines are described as the "switch" that the Patrol uses in the event that a member world or merchant requires more support than just negotiating and police action. They are smaller, but more trained for handling rougher contact. So, I agree that it would smaller force in Starfleet, but have its own distinct traditions.

It would also be smaller by virtue of the fact that logistics are less difficult compared to 21st century militaries. You reduce the amount of manpower needed to complete the mission just by adjusting the amount of personnel to manage logistics.

 

[evilchumlee]

I rely greatly on Heinlein and Space Cadet when he discusses the difference between the Marines and Solar Patrol. The Patrol doesn't utilize NCOs at all, but officers, junior officers and cadets. The Marines are a little more distinct, which I don't think is the idea here, but they have their own traditions just like the Patrol does.

The Marines are described as the "switch" that the Patrol uses in the event that a member world or merchant requires more support than just negotiating and police action. They are smaller, but more trained for handling rougher contact. So, I agree that it would smaller force in Starfleet, but have its own distinct traditions.

I like this comparison and I think it's closer to the role of these "Marines".

In my context here to compare this, the Marines are the Solar Patrol and the Marines are the "Federation Reserve" or whatever name you want to give to whatever the large force would be. Again in my version here, i'm thinking more that the "Army" so to speak is more done by member world or NATO-like alliance.

If there's some kind of an issue on Colony World X, and said Colony World X is under the jurisdiction of Earth, it would generally be expected that while Starfleet will do whatever it can to defend Colony World X, it's ultimately Earth's responsibility to get manpower there.

The Federation is centralized enough that they won't just let Colony World X be occupied over jurisdictional issues... they'll respond with whatever forces are in the area. If Vulcan is in a better position to get boots on the ground, they will.

Starfleet would be largely responsible for defense in space, but they have only a limited ground combat force.

It would also be smaller by virtue of the fact that logistics are less difficult compared to 21st century militaries. You reduce the amount of manpower needed to complete the mission just by adjusting the amount of personnel to manage logistics.

This too. I've touched a bit on this with the description of an HQ. I really think most HQ functions don't need multiple people. For a good majority of the hierarchy, one or two people should suffice. But just overall logistics should require vastly less than is needed today and even then, at least a portion of that can be handled by the ship/station.

This sort of works into my revamped idea that rekindled this, where the Marines have dual-roles as direct combat troops... but also the command corps of a larger force when the mission calls for such and all that is available are the Marines and some local forces (ship, station, colony, etc.)

It's partly why I think the ranking system might work slightly different. I'm going to throw out some terms here more for illustration... whatever the real most appropriate would be feel free to sub in. If you had normally had a Sergeant in command of a Squad... when the situation called for more manpower, these Marines would be able to shift and have a Corporal move up to command a Squad that was composed of non-Marines.

I really want the Marines to have their own distinct ranks, and MAYBE this is why? Does this make any sense at all? Marine ranks when essentially override mainline Starfleet ranks in the event of the Marines taking command (to a point... a Private won't be commanding around a Starfleet Captain). The Marine ranks are used when organizing Marines, so the appropriately ranked person who be commanding appropriately ranked subordinates.

Given the potential need to temporary larger forces, the Marines can have personnel reassigned to them, at which point their organization will divide accordingly, favoring a Marine in command. If a Squad is usually commanded by a Sergeant, and the Squad is made of three fire teams commanded by a Corporal... if the situation arises where they need three more squads to complete the missions, the Corporals take over as commanding a Squad, Marine Privates command the Fire Teams, which are made up of non-Marine personnel.

While "things can happen", in this case those assigned to the fire teams would be lower-ranked Starfleet NCOs or Officers. Going with my observation that in Starfleet, position tends to be a bit more important than rank, the Marine Private isn't seen as a Private by the assigned Starfleet personnel, they're seen as... "Fire Team Leader". Their rank is only really relevant to the Marine hierarchy.

If even more personnel is needed than the existing Marines can divide out into, then you have Starfleet people taking the command roles for the lower echelons alongside the Privates. There's a limited to how much people "temporarilly move up"... a Marine Private isn't going to end up in command of Battalion or anything, but they may well end up commanding people who hold a higher rank in Starfleet. A Private Fire Team Leader may well be ordering around Starfleet Ensigns.

 

[Shamrock Holmes]

Maybe that's were the whole NCO ranks gets adjusted.

To a certain extent.

However, even under United Earth there are indications that there are a reduced number of enlisted ranks compared to the US armed forces. The basic active duty rank (MACO Private) appears to be either Lance Corporal or Private First Class, and the top enlisted on Hayes' team was a Sergeant.

I still think that the Marines would be a relatively small organization, given that even in the 23rd century Starfleet still touts itself as primarily a scientific and exploration force. But I do I think that the 23rd century Marines are definitely much closer to a US Marine Corps role and scope in this era.

I've suggested previously that the "full-size" organisation was probably organised around the cohorts or groups, which would probably be roughly similar to the USMC Marine Expeditonary Unit in scope and mission types, but at least a little smaller in size as the logistics element would be depricated (though IMO they would still have one for extended missions).

Post-Khitomer, I do think they become much more akin to what we would call Commandos or Special Forces. They just keep the Marine name for the sake of tradition.

I could see them keeping the entry-level rank as Marine, and possibly keeping it in the detachment names, but changing the public-facing name of the overal organisation due to the politics of the era.

I have to skirt into my general views of what I think happened with Khitomer. It was clearly a fairly massive arms limitation treaty between the Federation, Klingons and Romulans. I ALSO think that all three sides tried to skirt the line and find gray areas, loopholes, etc. to still have more than they are maybe supposed to have. Starfleet rejiggering the size and scope of the Marines was probably skirting the line of what they were supposed to do.

Seems likely.

I do think we're on the same wavelength. I had originally had the former-Marines reorganized under the Security/Tactical Division of the fleet (which would be distinct from "Starfleet Security")... which in an of itself may have already been a reorganization due to Khitomer, whereas there may have been distinct flag-level Security and Tactical divisions within the fleet, condensed into a single division.

No, if you're supposing two departments, then the split is:

Starfleet Security, which at least provides the training of Starfleet security officers (who act as tactical officers during this era) and supplemental personnel for "special projects" (George Primmin, Michael Eddington), but as limited authority over deployed personnel in the first group as they are fully integrated into the ship/station company and answer to the CO. They can also take control of internal criminal enquiries on board Starfleet vessels, but this appears to be limited to Starfleet personnel and exchange officers and may have been transferred to Starfleet Internal Affairs later on.

Starfleet Intelligence, which provides information to starship/starbase personnel, but appears to be infrequently involved in regular missions of the "exploratory fleet" but rather spends most of its time on interplanetary crime and (counter-)espionage operations.

I actually kind of like the idea that in the 24th century Post-Khitomer era, "Marines" is really more a colloquial/traditional name. They are officially called something else but everyone, including themselves, call them Marines and they did retain much of the traditions of the former Starfleet Marines.

Basically yeah.

"Federation Reserve Forces" works. I tend to think the Federation doesn't actually have combat forces outside of Starfleet. I always envisioned the "Federation military" beyond Starfleet being more of a NATO-like situation.

I see them somewhat akin to the US National Guard or the UK Army Reserve, basically (part-time) military forces that spend most of their time assisting authorities on their homeworld/colony bases but under a legal framework that allows to be seconded to Starfleet authority (mostly under the "marines" of the Security Branch) in times of war or other major emergencies.

I rely greatly on Heinlein and Space Cadet when he discusses the difference between the Marines and Solar Patrol. The Patrol doesn't utilize NCOs at all, but officers, junior officers and cadets.

Rephrase that as (commissioned) officers, warrant officers and cadets and I'd say that's a reasonable structure for the "navy" side, particularly if they have a strong bias towards smaller, perhaps law-enforcement-esque vessels.

It would also be smaller by virtue of the fact that logistics are less difficult compared to 21st century militaries. You reduce the amount of manpower needed to complete the mission just by adjusting the amount of personnel to manage logistics.

Indeed.

The modern MEU is about 14% logistics, but even if we factor in additional medical, (civil) engineering and scientific staff, it's probably more likely a fifth to a tenth of that.

 

[Shamrock Holmes]

Starfleet would be largely responsible for defense in space, but they have only a limited ground combat force.

Exclusively so outside of "orbital space" pretty much I'd say.

I'd also say that the limits of the regular Starfleet Security personnel are less numbers per se and more training and equipment. They're basically orientated around the "working day" and would probably struggle to operation beyond say... 72 hours at a stretch.

This too. I've touched a bit on this with the description of an HQ. I really think most HQ functions don't need multiple people. For a good majority of the hierarchy, one or two people should suffice. But just overall logistics should require vastly less than is needed today and even then, at least a portion of that can be handled by the ship/station.

As I've said before it depends to a degree on the scale of the operation. For instance, Janeway commanded a crew about the same size as the detachment assigned to AR-558 and she had a senior staff of up to about a dozen, most of whom had several deputies to cover 24/7 operations.

This sort of works into my revamped idea that rekindled this, where the Marines have dual-roles as direct combat troops... but also the command corps of a larger force when the mission calls for such and all that is available are the Marines and some local forces (ship, station, colony, etc.)

Yup.

Marine ranks when essentially override mainline Starfleet ranks in the event of the Marines taking command (to a point... a Private won't be commanding around a Starfleet Captain).

Honestly, I don't see any scenario where any "Marine" is going to be giving orders to a Starfleet senior officer, though there's a bit more flexibility as far as junior officers go.

If even more personnel is needed than the existing Marines can divide out into, then you have Starfleet people taking the command roles for the lower echelons alongside the Privates. There's a limited to how much people "temporarilly move up"... a Marine Private isn't going to end up in command of Battalion or anything, but they may well end up commanding people who hold a higher rank in Starfleet. A Private Fire Team Leader may well be ordering around Starfleet Ensigns.

I've been thinking a bit about this, and I think the usual procedure for short to medium scale operations probably operates at three or four levels:

Level 1- Rapid Response Squad (Command Cadre, 12 personnel):
Squad Leader: Marine Lieutenant (equivalent of Starfleet Lieutenant)
Snr Team Leader: Marine Master Sergeant
Team Leaders: Marine Weapons Sergeant x 2
Strike Team: Marine Weapons Corporals x 5,
Support Team: Medical Corporal x1, Engineer/Operations Corporal x2

Level 1a - Rapid Response Squad (Training, 12-16 personnel):
Squad Leader: Marine Lieutenant (equivalent of Starfleet Lieutenant)
Snr Team Leader: Marine Master Sergeant
Strike Team Leaders: Marine Weapons Sergeant x 2
Strike Team: Marine Weapons Corporals x 5,
Support Team: Medical Corporal x1, Engineer/Operations Corporal x2
Trainees: Typically two Weapons Privates, a Medical Private and an Engineer/Operations Private.

Level 2: Rapid Response Detachment (Mobile, 55+):

Detachment Commander: Marine Lieutenant (equivalent of Starfleet Lieutenant)
Detachment XO/First Sergeant: Marine Master Sergeant
Squad Leaders: Marine Weapons Sergeant x 2
Strike Team Leaders: Marine Weapons Corporals x 6,
Strike Teams: 6 x up to 6 Weapons Privates, Starfleet Tactical/Armory Specialists or equivalent FRF grades.
Medical Support Team: Medical Corporal x1, up to 5 Medical Privates, Starfleet Medical Technicians or FRF equivalents.
Technical Support Team: Engineer/Operations Corporal x2, up to 10 Engineer/Operations Privates, Starfleet Technicians or FRF equivalents.

 

[fireproof78]

I've been thinking a bit about this, and I think the usual procedure for short to medium scale operations probably operates at three or four levels:

Level 1- Rapid Response Squad (Command Cadre, 12 personnel):
Squad Leader: Marine Lieutenant (equivalent of Starfleet Lieutenant)
Snr Team Leader: Marine Master Sergeant
Team Leaders: Marine Weapons Sergeant x 2
Strike Team: Marine Weapons Corporals x 5,
Support Team: Medical Corporal x1, Engineer/Operations Corporal x2

Level 1a - Rapid Response Squad (Training, 12-16 personnel):
Squad Leader: Marine Lieutenant (equivalent of Starfleet Lieutenant)
Snr Team Leader: Marine Master Sergeant
Strike Team Leaders: Marine Weapons Sergeant x 2
Strike Team: Marine Weapons Corporals x 5,
Support Team: Medical Corporal x1, Engineer/Operations Corporal x2
Trainees: Typically two Weapons Privates, a Medical Private and an Engineer/Operations Private.

Level 2: Rapid Response Detachment (Mobile, 55+):

Detachment Commander: Marine Lieutenant (equivalent of Starfleet Lieutenant)
Detachment XO/First Sergeant: Marine Master Sergeant
Squad Leaders: Marine Weapons Sergeant x 2
Strike Team Leaders: Marine Weapons Corporals x 6,
Strike Teams: 6 x up to 6 Weapons Privates, Starfleet Tactical/Armory Specialists or equivalent FRF grades.
Medical Support Team: Medical Corporal x1, up to 5 Medical Privates, Starfleet Medical Technicians or FRF equivalents.
Technical Support Team: Engineer/Operations Corporal x2, up to 10 Engineer/Operations Privates, Starfleet Technicians or FRF equivalents.

And this is why I come to the BBS. I love stuff like this.

 

[Shamrock Holmes]

If a Squad is usually commanded by a Sergeant, and the Squad is made of three fire teams commanded by a Corporal... if the situation arises where they need three more squads to complete the missions, the Corporals take over as commanding a Squad, Marine Privates command the Fire Teams, which are made up of non-Marine personnel.

As you can probably see from my last post, I favour exploiting the over-ranked squad leader ranks with special operations, combined with the fact that the US Army and the British Armed Forces typically appoint leaders a grade higher than the USMC on the conventional/"special operations capable" side of things.

Lieutenants lead Squads in the training role, but command combat detachments in the field, Sergeants typically act as team leaders/mentors for corporals and privates, but move up to Squad Leader as needed and are replaced by their corporals. Privates might be delegated a limited ad hoc role temporarily, but this isn't considered desirable.

Going with my observation that in Starfleet, position tends to be a bit more important than rank, the Marine Private isn't seen as a Private

Privates are rookies, officially they're barely considered experienced enough to command themselves, though expanding on the above, they might be advised an advisory or liaison role in certain circumstances.

If even more personnel is needed than the existing Marines can divide out into, then you have Starfleet people taking the command roles for the lower echelons alongside the Privates.

I feel that Starfleet commissioned officers and equivalent specialist NCOs will always outrank a private.

There's a limited to how much people "temporarilly move up"... a Marine Private isn't going to end up in command of Battalion or anything, but they may well end up commanding people who hold a higher rank in Starfleet.

See above.

A Private Fire Team Leader may well be ordering around Starfleet Ensigns.

Yeah no.

Assuming that transfers are possible, it's conceivable that such an Ensign might be assigned as Assistant Squad Leader/Team Leader or generally might be seconded to a Support Team and answer to a Sergeant, but it makes no sense that they would ever be subordinate to a Private, who they'd outrank based on time in service alone even discounting the general principle of commissions being senior.

 

[evilchumlee]

I could see them keeping the entry-level rank as Marine, and possibly keeping it in the detachment names, but changing the public-facing name of the overal organisation due to the politics of the era.

Yeah... they're like, "Starfleet Advanced Tactical Operations" or some such Star Treky sounding name, and then the detachment is like, 10th Starfleet Marines.

No, if you're supposing two departments, then the split is:

Starfleet Security, which at least provides the training of Starfleet security officers (who act as tactical officers during this era) and supplemental personnel for "special projects" (George Primmin, Michael Eddington), but as limited authority over deployed personnel in the first group as they are fully integrated into the ship/station company and answer to the CO. They can also take control of internal criminal enquiries on board Starfleet vessels, but this appears to be limited to Starfleet personnel and exchange officers and may have been transferred to Starfleet Internal Affairs later on.

Starfleet Intelligence, which provides information to starship/starbase personnel, but appears to be infrequently involved in regular missions of the "exploratory fleet" but rather spends most of its time on interplanetary crime and (counter-)espionage operations.

I think i'm actually talking about three departments.

Starfleet Security, which is a fairly byzantine organization that is bits if FBI, OSI, Internal Affairs, etc.

Starfleet Intelligence which is Space CIA

Somewhat divorced from those organizations are the Fleet departments. It doesn't 100% fit with the canon usage of the term, but I like to call it Fleet Operations which would be the command that Exploratory Corps, Utility Corps, etc. are subordinate to.

Ship/station "Security/Tactical Officers" don't really have anything to do with Starfleet Security, just like US Army military police have nothing to do with the FBI. "Security/Tactical" is an internal department of Fleet Operations.

There's just some overlap of names. "Security" and "Operations" are used for many different things in Starfleet.

I see them somewhat akin to the US National Guard or the UK Army Reserve, basically (part-time) military forces that spend most of their time assisting authorities on their homeworld/colony bases but under a legal framework that allows to be seconded to Starfleet authority (mostly under the "marines" of the Security Branch) in times of war or other major emergencies.

That works too. I tend to see Federation members as a bit more of a sovereign power than a US state is, which is I went more for the NATO comparison, although there's no reason this has to be exactly like anything so perhaps it's somewhere inbetween the US National Guard and NATO... the forces are under the jurisdiction of their member world as their own military force, with an aforementioned legal framework that can activate them into Federation service.

I'm a bigger fan of Starfleet being mostly relegated to space, while the ground forces are a separate entity. The Federation is in control of Starfleet directly... the "Army" so to speak, or "Reserve Forces" or whatever you want to call them are a bit more reliant on a different legal apparatus to facilitate cooperation between the member worlds, but ALSO with some caveat for Starfleet to be able to draw from this pool as well.

Exclusively so outside of "orbital space" pretty much I'd say.

I don't think that's quite the case, we do know that member worlds can and do operate space forces of their own.

I think the bigger distinction is that Starfleet is a direct apparatus of The Federation, while those member world fleets are not. While there is surely freedom of movement within the Federation and those fleets should have no issue moving about as they wish, they may not automatically have jurisdiction to perform certain actions in other member worlds space.

Federation member worlds definitely do have territory of their own, it's just not often dwelled on because it's generally irrelevant.

Honestly, I don't see any scenario where any "Marine" is going to be giving orders to a Starfleet senior officer, though there's a bit more flexibility as far as junior officers go.

Yeah that sounds right. I could only see that happening in the sense that the commanding officer of the Marine detachment has authority over the ground operations, so if the Captain decides he doesn't want to commit personnel, or decides to run his own ground operation with security personnel, the Marine commanding officer can pull rank on that and give him a big "no".

Starfleet also tends to be pragmatic enough that if they are in a situation where Lt. Commander Science McScience is on the ground with Sergeant Veteran Scarface... the regs manual can be damned, we're going to let the Marine Sergeant take this one.

I've been thinking a bit about this, and I think the usual procedure for short to medium scale operations probably operates at three or four levels:

Level 1- Rapid Response Squad (Command Cadre, 12 personnel):
Squad Leader: Marine Lieutenant (equivalent of Starfleet Lieutenant)
Snr Team Leader: Marine Master Sergeant
Team Leaders: Marine Weapons Sergeant x 2
Strike Team: Marine Weapons Corporals x 5,
Support Team: Medical Corporal x1, Engineer/Operations Corporal x2

Level 1a - Rapid Response Squad (Training, 12-16 personnel):
Squad Leader: Marine Lieutenant (equivalent of Starfleet Lieutenant)
Snr Team Leader: Marine Master Sergeant
Strike Team Leaders: Marine Weapons Sergeant x 2
Strike Team: Marine Weapons Corporals x 5,
Support Team: Medical Corporal x1, Engineer/Operations Corporal x2
Trainees: Typically two Weapons Privates, a Medical Private and an Engineer/Operations Private.

Level 2: Rapid Response Detachment (Mobile, 55+):

Detachment Commander: Marine Lieutenant (equivalent of Starfleet Lieutenant)
Detachment XO/First Sergeant: Marine Master Sergeant
Squad Leaders: Marine Weapons Sergeant x 2
Strike Team Leaders: Marine Weapons Corporals x 6,
Strike Teams: 6 x up to 6 Weapons Privates, Starfleet Tactical/Armory Specialists or equivalent FRF grades.
Medical Support Team: Medical Corporal x1, up to 5 Medical Privates, Starfleet Medical Technicians or FRF equivalents.
Technical Support Team: Engineer/Operations Corporal x2, up to 10 Engineer/Operations Privates, Starfleet Technicians or FRF equivalents.

That's basically right what I was thinking, with the caveat of the Level 2 team maybe having more Marine personnel than what might normally be available. The vast majority of the time, they may only have the Level 1 detachment available.

Yeah no.

Assuming that transfers are possible, it's conceivable that such an Ensign might be assigned as Assistant Squad Leader/Team Leader or generally might be seconded to a Support Team and answer to a Sergeant, but it makes no sense that they would ever be subordinate to a Private, who they'd outrank based on time in service alone even discounting the general principle of commissions being senior.

Although i've used "Private" in some of my past things, this is partly why I wasn't keen on having much in the way of lower NCO ranks here. All of these people may need to act in a leadership role. That's why I like the Level 1 setup you had there... Even though it's still 1:1, and i'll die on the hill that rank is less important in Trek than it is IRL, that a Corporal could do this.

It's a very situation specific instance. The Ensign would normally outrank the corporal, but random security department Ensign who spends his day guarding the empty brig isn't as equipped as the specially trained marine corporal in the role. And with Starfleet being officer heavy, this is going to happen. In the event they need to move ship security in this, they're going to get a bunch of ensigns.

 

[Shamrock Holmes]

I think i'm actually talking about three departments.

Not directly at flag-level

Starfleet Security, which is a fairly byzantine organization that is bits if FBI, OSI, Internal Affairs, etc.

Well, FBI and OSI are basically equivalents and Internal Affairs tends to flit between SSEC and SI depending on the era.

But basically, SEC is primarily interested in physical security and to a degree force protection, which are combined functions in most other countries.

Starfleet Intelligence which is Space CIA

Except that a good chunk of the stuff we actually see SI being involved with is "domestic" counter-intelligence, anti-organised crime and other "federal-level law enforcement" work, so while they are also CIA, they aren't exclusively an intelligence service.

Ship/station "Security/Tactical Officers" don't really have anything to do with Starfleet Security, just like US Army military police have nothing to do with the FBI. "Security/Tactical" is an internal department of Fleet Operations.

Actually, if MPs arrested a civilian engaging in felony-level activity they would liaise with the FBI on the matter and similarly service personnel who committed similar crimes (and indeed any extended investigation in both scenarios) would be a matter for the US Army's equivalent to OSI, the Criminal Investigation Division.

It's also worth noting that US naval security forces are the only major Western military security forces whose chain-of-command is periodically only through their local chain-of-command rather than having two reporting lines as the staff corps roles do.

That's basically right what I was thinking, with the caveat of the Level 2 team maybe having more Marine personnel than what might normally be available.

The Level 2 team is basically my outline for when significant extras are available such that command roles need to be reorientated.

The vast majority of the time, they may only have the Level 1 detachment available.

Given the need for future leaders to get experience, I would envisage most forward-deployed squads to be Level 1a.

Although i've used "Private" in some of my past things, this is partly why I wasn't keen on having much in the way of lower NCO ranks here. All of these people may need to act in a leadership role.

I've pretty much used the minimum number possible at this level, and the same number as the MACOs.

That's why I like the Level 1 setup you had there... Even though it's still 1:1, and i'll die on the hill that rank is less important in Trek than it is IRL, that a Corporal could do this.

Experience is still vital, rank is more a way of designating that.

It's a very situation specific instance. The Ensign would normally outrank the corporal, but random security department Ensign who spends his day guarding the empty brig isn't as equipped as the specially trained marine corporal in the role.

No Ensign is going to spend their day guarding an empty brig (though depending on the size of security department they might sometimes supervise a team that's guarding an occupied brig. Other possible duties in leading security patrols, supervising/conducting maintenance of the Armory and Weapons lockers, and if "Bridge Officer qualified" standing watch at Tactical and/or as OOW.

A Corporal acting as an Ensign's advisor/mentor OTOH does have a wider gamut of possibilities.

And with Starfleet being officer heavy, this is going to happen. In the event they need to move ship security in this, they're going to get a bunch of ensigns.

I disagree.

Any version of Starfleet that's even remotely compatible with this premise is going to be a lot less "officer-heavy" than TNG, DSC/SNW or LDS showed us, and is mostly going to transfer specialists* at this level with the transfer of commissioned line or technical* officers occurring only when cohorts and above are formed for long-term operations.

* The primary exception to this would be medical and science officers, but even this probably wouldn't kick in until the Level 3 Composite/Garrison Detachment level based on the AR-558 crew that I haven't locked in yet.

 

[evilchumlee]

Except that a good chunk of the stuff we actually see SI being involved with is "domestic" counter-intelligence, anti-organised crime and other "federal-level law enforcement" work, so while they are also CIA, they aren't exclusively an intelligence service.

That's fair.

The real crux of the argument here is that there is not always a super clear delineation between civilian and military in the Federation... probably somewhat stemming from the insistence that "Starfleet isn't the military". Starfleet is a monolithic hybrid organization that acts in many federal roles both traditionally civilian or military in nature.

There definitely are also straight Federation civilian agencies, but Starfleet as a whole is often just synonymous with "The Federation" because it basically is.

The Level 2 team is basically my outline for when significant extras are available such that command roles need to be reorientated.

Gotchya.

Experience is still vital, rank is more a way of designating that.

Absolutely.

I think the real source of disagreement here is just how important rank is. By and large, rank will directly correlate with experience and not be an issue. But... there are times when it won't, and Starfleet never struck me as an organization that would get hung up on the formality of rank, at least to an extent.

I'm not sure if i've articulated my point here properly, but I think the experience of a dedicated combat soldier who may be of a lower rank than a shipboard officer who does not have a combat-related job would be overall more important... again, to a point. Context is king here.

No Ensign is going to spend their day guarding an empty brig (though depending on the size of security department they might sometimes supervise a team that's guarding an occupied brig. Other possible duties in leading security patrols, supervising/conducting maintenance of the Armory and Weapons lockers, and if "Bridge Officer qualified" standing watch at Tactical and/or as OOW.

A Corporal acting as an Ensign's advisor/mentor OTOH does have a wider gamut of possibilities.

I meant that a bit less literally, just to illustrate that Starfleet Ensigns are often given menial tasks. They're more likely to cleaning the gunk of the holodeck than they are be doing much of other relevance.

Any version of Starfleet that's even remotely compatible with this premise is going to be a lot less "officer-heavy" than TNG, DSC/SNW or LDS showed us, and is mostly going to transfer specialists* at this level with the transfer of commissioned line or technical* officers occurring only when cohorts and above are formed for long-term operations.

I think this is also where some of the inherent disagreement comes in.

I'm trying to craft something that is compatible with what the shows have shown us.

* The primary exception to this would be medical and science officers, but even this probably wouldn't kick in until the Level 3 Composite/Garrison Detachment level based on the AR-558 crew that I haven't locked in yet.

I can see that.

Although as this idea just kind of organically grew, I do think there are essentially two "eras" of this force.

The 23rd century force I can see being much more similar to a modern day military, which just also needs to occasionally transfer personnel for more specialist roles.

The 24th century force is kind of its own animal borne of necessity. It's forced to work with much less in the way of resources and personnel of its own, in the grand scheme having a role closer to advisors/observers than a true combat force.

 

[fireproof78]

I'm not sure if i've articulated my point here properly, but I think the experience of a dedicated combat soldier who may be of a lower rank than a shipboard officer who does not have a combat-related job would be overall more important... again, to a point. Context is king here.

They probably wouldn't be a private, at the very least.

Yes, it can happen. There can be multiple rungs of the chain of command ladder knocked out due to one attack, and there are historical examples of very junior officers commanding a ship in a sea battle. But, a private is going to lack the necessary experience to command an ensign. Now, an ensign could very well take their experience and rely upon the advice of the private; that's what good leaders do is rely upon multiple officers. In modern day militaries, new officers regularly rely upon senior NCOs for that reason. But, the chain of command exists for a reason too.

And, as Star Trek has shown us, higher ranking officers can step in regardless of experience. Troi commanding the Bridge in "Disaster", Stocker commanding the Enterprise despite not having ship based experience, etc.

 

[Shamrock Holmes]

I'm not sure if i've articulated my point here properly, but I think the experience of a dedicated combat soldier who may be of a lower rank than a shipboard officer who does not have a combat-related job would be overall more important... again, to a point. Context is king here.

Again, I think that depends how you define the latter, but it's not impossible.

My issue is that only the most incompetent/egotistical of officers would needed to be ordered to comply by an enlisted person of more relevant experience rather than accepting their advice, and I'm not sure that formalising the option would help, because they're unlikely to accept that it applies in the moment.

I meant that a bit less literally, just to illustrate that Starfleet Ensigns are often given menial tasks. They're more likely to cleaning the gunk of the holodeck than they are be doing much of other relevance.

I think this is also where some of the inherent disagreement comes in.

I'm trying to craft something that is compatible with what the shows have shown us.

Again, the idea that Ensigns are responsive for any menial tasks is bopth canon and contradicted by canon, depending on whether the series in question accepts the existence of enlisted personnel:

LDS and DSC/SNW based deny that Starfleet has enlisted personnel, perpuating the academic elitest argument that anyone without a college education aren't 'worthy' to be in Starfleet. Given that most of the adherents to this PoV are also in the 'Starfleet isn't military because military are always EVULZ' which means that no version of this force would fit within their context.

The other shows aren't always consistent but the bulk of the rest of the shows fairly consistently show enlisted personnel doing a lot of the basic work, so even if they aren't particularly "pro-military" (particularly TNG), there's at least a framework to debate on.

Although as this idea just kind of organically grew, I do think there are essentially two "eras" of this force.

Agreed.

The 23rd century force I can see being much more similar to a modern day military, which just also needs to occasionally transfer personnel for more specialist roles.

I think it would probably depend on the duration and exact nature of the operation, but certainly below command/flag-level formations and/or over the short to medium term.

The 24th century force is kind of its own animal borne of necessity. It's forced to work with much less in the way of resources and personnel of its own, in the grand scheme having a role closer to advisors/observers than a true combat force.

Up to a point, yeah.

I'd say they're probably fairly capable of dealing with most operations that sit well within their area of expertise that last no longer than the 90 day limit mentioned in The Siege of AR-558, particularly if they have the chance to integrate "non-Fleet" personnel from the Reserves, but they're definitely going to have to co-operate with mainline Starfleet for personnel and resources as soon as the situation moves even slightly out of bounds, whereas the earlier version might have been able to address at the first scenario better?

 

[evilchumlee]

They probably wouldn't be a private, at the very least.

Me saying "Private" was a bad example. Realistically, I don't think there even be Privates present in this situation at all, if they existed at all (which, there does need to be some kind of entry rank so i'm sure they do, they just wouldn't be in these on-ship units).

Yes, it can happen. There can be multiple rungs of the chain of command ladder knocked out due to one attack, and there are historical examples of very junior officers commanding a ship in a sea battle. But, a private is going to lack the necessary experience to command an ensign. Now, an ensign could very well take their experience and rely upon the advice of the private; that's what good leaders do is rely upon multiple officers. In modern day militaries, new officers regularly rely upon senior NCOs for that reason. But, the chain of command exists for a reason too.

And, as Star Trek has shown us, higher ranking officers can step in regardless of experience. Troi commanding the Bridge in "Disaster", Stocker commanding the Enterprise despite not having ship based experience, etc.

Right.

The design here is that its an attempt to compartmentalize specializations, while also being able to work with what they have. If it's an engineering mission, an engineer will be in command. If it's a medical mission, a doctor will be in command. If it's a ground combat mission, the ground combat people will be in command.

Let's just ignore differing ranks for the moment and assume the ground combat force just uses normal Starfleet ranks.

A Lieutenant in the ground combat force would be better suited to command the ground combat force than a science department Lt. Commander. If the science department is assigned to the ground combat force due to a need for personnel, it would make little sense for science lt. commander to take over command of something he knows very little about, because he has a higher rank.

My issue is that only the most incompetent/egotistical of officers would needed to be ordered to comply by an enlisted person of more relevant experience rather than accepting their advice, and I'm not sure that formalising the option would help, because they're unlikely to accept that it applies in the moment.

I think that's the key here and partly why I want this to have a completely different rank structure. It *IS* formalized, and it applies the second one is transferred under the Marine command.

I suppose in the vein of an NCO always being subordinate to an Officer, it's similar that when formally assigned to Marine Command, your mainline Starfleet rank becomes (somewhat) irrelevant to the needs of the mission (again, to a point, everything in context). This whole entire thing relies on the Marines not really doing this until they need more people. They'll start in a more rank-appropriate fashion but if it turns out they need more people, it might start to move into a situation where they're pulling some higher ranked people in... but higher ranked people who are not qualified to command the operation.

In that case, the role becomes prioritized over rank.

Again, the idea that Ensigns are responsive for any menial tasks is bopth canon and contradicted by canon, depending on whether the series in question accepts the existence of enlisted personnel:

LDS and DSC/SNW based deny that Starfleet has enlisted personnel, perpuating the academic elitest argument that anyone without a college education aren't 'worthy' to be in Starfleet. Given that most of the adherents to this PoV are also in the 'Starfleet isn't military because military are always EVULZ' which means that no version of this force would fit within their context.

The other shows aren't always consistent but the bulk of the rest of the shows fairly consistently show enlisted personnel doing a lot of the basic work, so even if they aren't particularly "pro-military" (particularly TNG), there's at least a framework to debate on.

Which is what led me to the observation that "Enlisted" doesn't quite mean the same thing as it does from the modern perspective. It really seems like the biggest difference with Enlisted in Starfleet is that they just have more lower ranks. Officers start out as Ensigns, who are still treated as pretty low on the totem pole, but a Crewman is even lower and has a couple of steps of Crewman to go before getting to a higher spot.

But I think the "Starfleet isn't military" thing is less because "the military is evil" and more just... the point of Star Trek is about a peaceful future where they barely even need a military, so their scientific and exploration agency pulls double duty by being a military when it needs to be.

I think it would probably depend on the duration and exact nature of the operation, but certainly below command/flag-level formations and/or over the short to medium term.

Absolutely what i'm thinking. The 23rd century force would be largely self-sufficient, but there's all manner of extra specialists that maybe don't make sense for them to have active all the time.

Up to a point, yeah.

I'd say they're probably fairly capable of dealing with most operations that sit well within their area of expertise that last no longer than the 90 day limit mentioned in The Siege of AR-558, particularly if they have the chance to integrate "non-Fleet" personnel from the Reserves, but they're definitely going to have to co-operate with mainline Starfleet for personnel and resources as soon as the situation moves even slightly out of bounds, whereas the earlier version might have been able to address at the first scenario better?

I'm kind of with you one that.

I see these teams operating a bit more independently from each other/potential reinforcement. I think some sort of reserve pool however it may be establish could exist, but it's not something they can normally rely on.

What they can rely on is personnel from their ship. It's almost the opposite of how you have it... they can deal with operations on their own, but when they expand out... sure they can call for non-fleet reinforcements, but they could exceptionally far away or otherwise entangled. They will almost certainly be pulling from Starfleet personnel first, with them being relieved if/when other reinforcements can arrive.

The earlier iteration of the Marines have just have had more personnel at their disposal from the jump. Rather than a ship potentially carrying a 12 man group, they're carrying 50, and there are full on starbases that basically Marine bases, ready to reinforce throughout various sectors.

Later... those don't exist, and the Marines of old have become effectively special forces, and the mission is such that they don't have the manpower to tackle it... they have a whole ship full of people to draw from in alot of cases.

 

[Shamrock Holmes]

Me saying "Private" was a bad example. Realistically, I don't think there even be Privates present in this situation at all, if they existed at all (which, there does need to be some kind of entry rank so i'm sure they do, they just wouldn't be in these on-ship units).

There was certainly a Private rank in deployed force pre-Khitomer, and I'd see the same thing happening during wartime.

During the TNG-era, with the advent of holodecks, Privates might technically be 'active duty' (as in not under Training Command), but assigned to planet-side or starbase depots rather than actually deployed to starship detachments.

The design here is that its an attempt to compartmentalize specializations, while also being able to work with what they have. If it's an engineering mission, an engineer will be in command. If it's a medical mission, a doctor will be in command. If it's a ground combat mission, the ground combat people will be in command.

I kinda see the default "mission commander" being a command-track commissioned officer, particularly if a variety of different elements are included, but the above's a reasonable notion.

A Lieutenant in the ground combat force would be better suited to command the ground combat force than a science department Lt. Commander. If the science department is assigned to the ground combat force due to a need for personnel, it would make little sense for science lt. commander to take over command of something he knows very little about, because he has a higher rank.

Particularly as a ground force lieutenant might actually have more field experience in general, but that's different from suggesting that a Corporal might take command over a science LCDR.

I think that's the key here and partly why I want this to have a completely different rank structure. It *IS* formalized, and it applies the second one is transferred under the Marine command.

I agree, though I feel there should be limits there.

They'll start in a more rank-appropriate fashion but if it turns out they need more people, it might start to move into a situation where they're pulling some higher ranked people in... but higher ranked people who are not qualified to command the operation.

I kinda feel that higher ranked starship personnel are going to be prioritised to remain as part of a "skeleton crew" to fly the ship, because they're going to better able to direct the computer on appropriate semi-automated tasks than a junior officer.

Which is what led me to the observation that "Enlisted" doesn't quite mean the same thing as it does from the modern perspective. It really seems like the biggest difference with Enlisted in Starfleet is that they just have more lower ranks. Officers start out as Ensigns, who are still treated as pretty low on the totem pole, but a Crewman is even lower and has a couple of steps of Crewman to go before getting to a higher spot.

It's not as restricted as IRL (particularly US Armed Forces IRL*), enlisted personnel are certainly permitted to gain knowledge and work outside their original specialism and have the option to progress to commissioned ranks if they desire, which is a long, complicated and drawn out process that often requires high-level contacts if not actual patrons IRL.

But I think the "Starfleet isn't military" thing is less because "the military is evil"

In universe... I don't really disagree.

In the fandom (including this website)... no, it really is. There are several examples.

What they can rely on is personnel from their ship. It's almost the opposite of how you have it... they can deal with operations on their own, but when they expand out... sure they can call for non-fleet reinforcements, but they could exceptionally far away or otherwise entangled. They will almost certainly be pulling from Starfleet personnel first, with them being relieved if/when other reinforcements can arrive.

I could see them transferring security and/or armory personnel relatively readily as a "first back-up", certainly to get them up to only the Level 1b light detachment level I posted earlier, but I kinda feel they'd prefer to tap Reserves from local planetary governments if they're doing extended operations.

The earlier iteration of the Marines have just have had more personnel at their disposal from the jump. Rather than a ship potentially carrying a 12 man group, they're carrying 50, and there are full on starbases that basically Marine bases, ready to reinforce throughout various sectors.

I could see something like a Saber or a Defiant having only a single team on board for a particular mission, I kinda feel the smallest extended deployment on most starships would be at least a light detachment under a lieutenant even in the modern era, with a similar sized detachment (or even a full composite detachment) on extended deployments during the 23rd Century, supplemented with dedicated transport ships capable of providing up to a cohort or even a small formation fairly quickly.

 

[fireproof78]

it would make little sense for science lt. commander to take over command of something he knows very little about, because he has a higher rank.

Star Trek has done that though.

 

[evilchumlee]

There was certainly a Private rank in deployed force pre-Khitomer, and I'd see the same thing happening during wartime

During the TNG-era, with the advent of holodecks, Privates might technically be 'active duty' (as in not under Training Command), but assigned to planet-side or starbase depots rather than actually deployed to starship detachments.

Yeah I don't have any actual issue with this. In the TNG-era, I don't think you see Privates deployed out on starships on any usual basis, but they... exist, doing things and as potential reinforcements.

I kinda see the default "mission commander" being a command-track commissioned officer, particularly if a variety of different elements are included, but the above's a reasonable notion.

Yes, of course.

I was referring to when the structure breaks down a bit and has to embed Starfleet officers. At that point if you have X Rank Marine and Y Rank Starfleet officer, within a reasonable range, the X Rank Marine will be in command over the Y Rank Starfleet, even if under other circumstances, the Starfleet officer would have the higher rank.

The tl:dr version of that might be "Fleet ranks don't exactly apply to Marines", and if you transferred over to Marine command (temporarily) you may (temporarily) be reduced to whatever is necessary for the (temporary) duration of the mission. This where I think though that's... formally informal... people will still call by you by your rank as a salutary, but it's just not as relevant to the actual command structure of the (temporary) organization.

"You're usually a Lieutenant in command of a Stellar Cartography team? That's great, here's a phaser rifle, report to your strike force now."

I kinda feel that higher ranked starship personnel are going to be prioritised to remain as part of a "skeleton crew" to fly the ship, because they're going to better able to direct the computer on appropriate semi-automated tasks than a junior officer.

Absolutely. I'm talking the contingency cases where they've used all the immediately logical people to use and have expanding out.

I'm NOT talking about taking senior officer bridge crew. I'm talking about sending the non-essential ship personnel who may otherwise be of higher rank. Later in TNG, Troi is a full Commander... and also is in absolutely no way essential to the operation of the vessel. If the rhetorical "shit hits the fan" and they need everyone they can get, she might be among the last choices... but Troi can hold a phaser.

At that point, it seems outlandishly foolish to say "Ok Commander Troi, you're now in command of the operation here, because rank."

I could see them transferring security and/or armory personnel relatively readily as a "first back-up", certainly to get them up to only the Level 1b light detachment level I posted earlier, but I kinda feel they'd prefer to tap Reserves from local planetary governments if they're doing extended operations.

When possible. Yes.

I could see something like a Saber or a Defiant having only a single team on board for a particular mission, I kinda feel the smallest extended deployment on most starships would be at least a light detachment under a lieutenant even in the modern era, with a similar sized detachment (or even a full composite detachment) on extended deployments during the 23rd Century, supplemented with dedicated transport ships capable of providing up to a cohort or even a small formation fairly quickly.

For the 23rd century ones... yes absolutely. They would be everywhere, with dedicated transports, the whole nines.

TNG+... these are "Marines" in name only out of a sense of tradition. They're closer in function to the Hazard Team from Voyager Elite Force, but instead of just being drawn from ships crew, they are from their own, specially trained and equipped department.

Part of that is to reconcile how these people exist, with precisely zero indication in canon that they exist.

Enterprise-D wouldn't have them due to it's symbolism as the flagship. It's more aimed at diplomatic missions and the like, it would be bad PR for them to have this force on board.

Voyager may or may not in normal circumstances, but when they left DS9 it was probably deemed they didn't need them for the mission and they wouldn't have been very far out there anyway, so if they DID need more advanced ground combat people... they weren't far away.

Deep Space 9 probably didn't generally have them on board more so because it wasn't a Federation station and it had a large civilian presence. They wouldn't need Starfleet Marines there, it would probably rub the Bajorans the wrong way, and they have access to the whole-ass planet of Bajor and their military.

On the flip, we don't see them on say, Discovery... because the actual Marine Corps still exists and they won't just be tagging along on Starfleet ships, they have their own transports to get around.

 

[evilchumlee]

Star Trek has done that though.

Yes... and it also tends to be portrayed as generally the wrong idea, and in the case of someone like Troi... she does have command and bridge training.

In this case, we're talking about people who have little to no training in the role being put in command because their collar has more pips.

 

[fireproof78]

Yes... and it also tends to be portrayed as generally the wrong idea, and in the case of someone like Troi... she does have command and bridge training.

In this case, we're talking about people who have little to no training in the role being put in command because their collar has more pips.

Oh, I understand your point but it also is trying to remain consistent with what is presented on screen. Otherwise, there's a reason for distinct command lines to manage specific situations but there is also an understanding that someone always moves up.

Here's an article discussing how the Army uses it and why the chain of and and general authority are important but distinct elements.

 

[evilchumlee]

Here's an article discussing how the Army uses it and why the chain of and and general authority are important but distinct elements.

That's interesting, although not quite to the point i'm trying to make.

I've been doing some reading today... slow day at work... at different military organizations around the world, to discover that... not everyone utilizes NCO's in the same way, if at all. At least there is some actual real world basis for some of my ideas, to a point anyway.

I'm forming a few ideas how the general rank structure of Starfleet as a whole might operate. It's still fairly close to my initial ideas.