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Brainstorm - Starfleet Marines (alittle different)

In that case, probably a handful of shuttles and runabouts permanently assigned to the SEFC, as well as some Argo-style ground vehicles for environments where use of transporters/shuttles are not possible (e.g. interference fields)

Yeah I think this department would have more in the way of Plan B type equipment, for when the fancy stuff stops working.

I do think they might have at least limited access to some sort of armored vehicles, tanks-type and artillery. They would still serve a combat function.

It was why I was initially considering this as a branch, since they would have quite a bit under their command. No, or few, starships, but shuttles, small craft, air support, bombers, as well as an array of ground vehicles. We're not talking huge armored divisions here, but some more combat-focused vehicles for sure.

I like the idea that the SEFC, "Marines", are not solely combat troops... fits with Starfleet... but perhaps more than the rest of Starfleet, combat is very much in their mission profile.

I'd assume that some SEFC field teams are basically Special Forces / CSAR capable.

I'm really thinking they do keep standing Special Forces. Might be a huge force, but they surely have them and it would make sense for them to be under this department.

Agreed!

A while back I saw a poorly-Photoshopped screenshot from DS9 6x05 "Favor the Bold", where someone re-imagined RADMs Cobum and Sitak as "Starfleet Marine" officers with green-colored undershirts on their uniforms. That's definitely not what we'd want here with the hypothetical SEFC.

Yes and no.

I do think visually, in this case General's Cobun and Sitak would be in a generally Starfleet uniform a with a green department color. They're still Starfleet... they just also have a slightly different command structure than the space-based departments do.

I envision that flag level officers mostly just wear the Starfleet uniform du jure with appropriate department color, while other officers would have a couple of uniforms for situations. They're Starfleet... so they have a Starfleet uniform that is worn on ships and such. Their dress uniform would be different, and they would have a different ground work uniform.

They have a more ground force style rank structure to help instill the different culture from the space fleet. Whereas the fleet does mostly other duties but can do combat duty, the SEFC mostly does combat duty but can do other duties. They need a different culture to reflect that.

EDIT -

The different uniforms for different Starfleet departments thing is already canon anyway, although given i'm doing a reboot thing i'm going to adjust that a bit.

Flag officers in the support department would wear normal Starfleet uniforms, and the crews HAVE them, the Lower Decks uniform is their usual duty uniform.

The whole Lower Decks "second contact" thing is something i'd want to expand on too. That will have it's own department too, something along the lines of "Logistical and Administrative Support". They eventually broke into its own department to let the rest of the fleet deal with other matters.

I was actually thinking to expand out Starfleet a bit, most of the main departments have subordinate departments that are essentially mini-branches. Logistical Support falls under Ops/Engineering, along with the Corps of Engineers. "Marines" fall under Command/Security (that's a change I made inspired by Star Trek Online... I lump Security into Command), Starfleet Medical under General Sciences. They all have slightly different duty uniforms.
 
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I was actually thinking to expand out Starfleet a bit, most of the main departments have subordinate departments that are essentially mini-branches. Logistical Support falls under Ops/Engineering, along with the Corps of Engineers. "Marines" fall under Command/Security (that's a change I made inspired by Star Trek Online... I lump Security into Command),

Due to the historical inspirations for Starfleet and their apparent status as an organisation with a de facto military role (regardless of whether they are one or not), I tend to go with a combination of the Royal Navy and the US Coast Guard on this particular issue, and add in bits of law enforcement structures as needed as I've noted elsewhere in this thread.

There are some subtle differences between the two systems, but the three branches are typically Engineering (which includes Armory and IT/Comms technicians), Logicistics (mainly Stores, PR, Mess, Admin/Personnel, deployed medical and scientifical personnel may sit here for admin purposes); Deck (Pilots, Security, Comms/Intel Operators/Analysts, Weapons Operators) and Command/Warfare (Ship's Command Staff, Expeditionary Unit Personnel, HQ Direct Reports)

Starfleet Medical under General Sciences. They all have slightly different duty uniforms.

I generally put medical and related technicians under the Logistics Department at element & sub-unit level, but put them under Life Sciences at the unit level with their own senior/flag officers for formations and commands (for instance, the head of each Starfleet medical "base" would be Captain or Commodore, and would report to the Surgeon General (a 4-pip+ flag officer) rather than the Chief Quartermaster/Adjutant-General (likewise a 4+ flag officer).
 
I generally put medical and related technicians under the Logistics Department at element & sub-unit level, but put them under Life Sciences at the unit level with their own senior/flag officers for formations and commands (for instance, the head of each Starfleet medical "base" would be Captain or Commodore, and would report to the Surgeon General (a 4-pip+ flag officer) rather than the Chief Quartermaster/Adjutant-General (likewise a 4+ flag officer).

That could work just fine, but I think keeping under them straight science is more in-line with Prime.

I like to think that Starfleet Medical... and really the Sciences in general... are much less formal/militaristic than the other departments. They have wartime protocols, but overall Starfleet Medical functions more like a giant hospital/medical group that has a ranking system they largely don't care much about but it's there because they are Starfleet. They tend to matter more on both ends, less so the middle... they are a source pride/accomplishment for junior officers, and they're important functionally for the higher command tiers. The mid-tiers don't care... those tend to be the Dr. Crusher types who are there to be Doctors, they don't care in the slightest about their Starfleet rank by and large. Their rank is "Doctor" to them.

On tangents here, because it's at least all somewhat related, I really wanted to dig into the organization of Starfleet. I initially had the notion that the colored departments were organizations unto themselves. It was part of the reason why I initially had the "Marines" as a separate branch. However now, really thinking about it I think the color-coded departments are just a visual indicator of job, the "Marines" being the exception to the rule. They'll be green-colored coded, possibly a few more... I like the idea of them having Special Forces, and for their department color to be black, and I do think they would have their own pilots/ship crews who I generally put in white.

I'm currently thinking the general organization goes something like...

Starfleet Command /
Starfleet (it all grew out of the single organization, the fleet gets to keep the general "Starfleet" name / Operations Support / Corps of Engineers / Starfleet Medical / Expeditionary Force / Intelligence

There could be other departments in there too, you could see these as "branches" if you desired to use the nomenclature. They are all under Starfleet Command and all considered "Starfleet", but they can have their own organizational structure and uniforms.

By and large, I don't think these are rigid branches like a modern day military would be. People can easily be assigned across the departments. You might join up to Starfleet proper and be assigned to Support, or signed on Corps of Engineers and end up in the Expeditionary Force.

Just being straight up reassigned to the EF or Intelligence is unlikely, usually it would be a temporary attachment. The EF would have some of its own engineering and science personnel, but not many. Most engineering/science support for them would just be temporary assignments from another department.

Intelligence I think warrants its own department, although like the EF is kind of its own animal, more akin to something like the CIA than a military branch. By the 24th century especially, I think most any governmental organization is... Starfleet.
 
That could work just fine, but I think keeping under them straight science is more in-line with Prime.

On the contrary, TOS, SNW/DIS and DS9 make it clear that the Science Officer and the (Chief) Medical Officer are separate roles with their own reporting lines, with the most explicit reference being in the second TOS pilot where Dr Piper is both the Chief Medical Officer and Chief of Life Sciences and Lt Sulu is the Astrosciences/Science Officer.

I like to think that Starfleet Medical... and really the Sciences in general... are much less formal/militaristic than the other departments

Less militaristic, though Starfleet is fairly weakly so anyway and IMO some elements of this probably should stay.

hey tend to matter more on both ends, less so the middle... they are a source pride/accomplishment for junior officers, and they're important functionally for the higher command tiers. The mid-tiers don't care... those tend to be the Dr. Crusher types who are there to be Doctors, they don't care in the slightest about their Starfleet rank by and large. Their rank is "Doctor" to them.

Agreed.

Starfleet medical and life sciences personnel are professionals first and service personnel second.

On tangents here, because it's at least all somewhat related, I really wanted to dig into the organization of Starfleet. I initially had the notion that the colored departments were organizations unto themselves.

To an extent, though IMO most are ultimately accountable to the UFP President and/or the ranking member of Starfleet Command (which IMO is more analogous to the Pentagon and/or Joint Chiefs or the Royal Navy's Navy Board rather than a branch (that's generically "Starfleet Operations" (though I consider other options below).

I'm currently thinking the general organization goes something like...

I'd use the semi-canonical information from viewscreens in Measure of a Man as I discussed in a previous thread: https://www.trekbbs.com/threads/starfleet-headquarters-commands.299095/

TLDR:

Starfleet Command Council:

Starfleet (Deputy) Commander-in-Chief - uniformed head of Starfleet, reports to the UFP President who may hold the formal role of C-in-C. Holds rank of Fleet/Chief Admiral.
Starfleet Chief of Staff - second in command of day-to-day operations. Responsible for liaising and co-ordinating strategic operations with Partner Agencies, Member World Service Organisations et al. Holds rank of either Fleet/Chief Admiral or Full Admiral.
Council Members:
  • Chief of Exploratory Corps - responsible for Deep Space "first contact", near space "second contact", border patrol, and internal "aids to navigation" operations. Also responsible for ensuring that starships are available to support the missions of the other branches as required. Holds the rank of Full Admiral.
  • Chief of Diplomatic Service - responsible for supporting the work of the Federation Diplomatic Corps by coordinating administrative, logicistical, security and accommodations for Ambassadors and their civilian aides. Holds the rank of Full Admiral.
  • Chief of Scientific Corps - responsible for providing oversite and in some cases training for uniformed and civilian researchers and their uniformed support personnel. Holds the rank of Full Admiral.
  • Chief of Operational Support Services. In charge of all static Starfleet facilities (with a parallel remit to the Chief of the Exploratory Corps) and any personnel not directly involved in the remits of the other CMs. Holds the rank of Full Admiral.
  • Chief of Training - has overall oversight of all Starfleet training programmes across the Federation. Originally dual-hatted as the head of Starfleet Academy (the old UE Starfleet facility on Earth), but that function has now devolved to a lower-ranked Deputy. Holds the rank of Full Admiral.
  • Daystrom Institute Liaison - responsible for co-ordinating between Starfleet and the Institute on joint operations, typical point of call for Starfleet uniformed personnel seconded to the organisation. Typically holds at least Senior Officer rank.

Embarked personnel who are not otherwise part of the Exploration Corps - such as medical personnel (SciCorps or OSC under the Surgeon General), Corps of Engineers (OSC)*, security** (OSC under the Inspector General), Expeditionary Force (OSC under the EF Marshal/Commandant-General) or Reserves) - are seconded to the ExploraCorps for the mission but remain accountable to their chain of command.

* Equivalent of Seebees, not regular Snipes.
** Ship's MA/Security Force, VBSS and Ship's Reaction Force. Also used for at least the former by OSC on bases.
 
On the contrary, TOS, SNW/DIS and DS9 make it clear that the Science Officer and the (Chief) Medical Officer are separate roles with their own reporting lines, with the most explicit reference being in the second TOS pilot where Dr Piper is both the Chief Medical Officer and Chief of Life Sciences and Lt Sulu is the Astrosciences/Science Officer.

I meant more that Medical is a department/division within Science, but with its own organization.

Just in general, "Science Officer" seems to be something of an elective position, not every ship has one. Rather I think most of the time, Sciences tend to break off by specialization. The Chief Medical Officer is the top of the medical specialization, the Chief Stellar Cartographer is the top of Stellar Cartography, etc.

I have Medical as being akin in organization to the Expeditionary Force where it's under Starfleet Science, but is functionally it's own thing.

To an extent, though IMO most are ultimately accountable to the UFP President and/or the ranking member of Starfleet Command (which IMO is more analogous to the Pentagon and/or Joint Chiefs or the Royal Navy's Navy Board rather than a branch (that's generically "Starfleet Operations" (though I consider other options below).

I was actually way deeper in the org chart.

I had considered that "Command", "Operations" and "Science" were essentially branches under Starfleet.

Starfleet (Deputy) Commander-in-Chief - uniformed head of Starfleet, reports to the UFP President who may hold the formal role of C-in-C. Holds rank of Fleet/Chief Admiral.
Starfleet Chief of Staff - second in command of day-to-day operations. Responsible for liaising and co-ordinating strategic operations with Partner Agencies, Member World Service Organisations et al. Holds rank of either Fleet/Chief Admiral or Full Admiral.
.

Snipped some of that just for context to respond.

I'm mostly on board for this organization, although i'd change some wording around and some departments may differ, etc.

Here's what i've been toying with for my Starfleet Organization at the moment. It's not an exhaustive list of everything, just a baseline:

Starfleet Command -
Starfleet Fleet Operations (“Starfleet”, this is the mainline what-we-call Starfleet)
-***Starfleet Operational Support Service (Lower Decks “Second Contact” fleet)
-Starfleet Tactical Command (Essentially the military arm of Fleet Operations.)
Starfleet Office of Science Operations (“Starfleet Science”)
- ***Starfleet Medical
-Starfleet Advanced Technologies Division
Starfleet Corps of Engineers
-Starfleet Research and Development
Starfleet Administration Agency
-Starfleet Diplomatic Corps
-Judge Advocate General
Starfleet Security (Basically, Federation Police. There would surely be some sub departments, but by and large their law enforcement and guard duty oriented.)
*Starfleet Expeditionary Service
-***Starfleet Marine Command (the last vestige of MACO's, "MArine COmmand")
-Starfleet Tactical Aviation Force
-Starfleet Special Forces
*Starfleet Intelligence
- Department of Temporal Investigations
-**Section 31

* While part of Starfleet, the command organization differs.
** Through the 2250's, the elite of SF Intelligence, officially disavowed and disbanded
*** Although sub-departments, they have representation in the Starfleet Chiefs of Staff.

The Starfleet Chiefs of Staff are comprised of the heads of each parent department. Their title will vary.

I lifted as many names from canon as possible, and also accounted for colloquial terms. Nobody really calls it "Starfleet Fleet Operations" aside from the most formal of settings. It's just "Starfleet". If you say "Starfleet", it's assumed to be "Fleet Operations". Likewise, you don't REALLY need to say "Starfleet" in front of just about anything, it's all already implied. You could just say "Corps of Engineers". Everyone knows it's Starfleet.

I didn't include Daystrom Institute directly... I actually don't even think it's directly Starfleet related. It would be like adding Cambridge under Starfleet Command. It's a civilian research organization.

EDIT -

On that, Starfleet Academy is probably it's own department under Starfleet Command, with all of the subdepartments reporting to the Commandant of the Academy.

EDIT 2 -

I know my depiction of "Operational Support Service" is not quite canon, as that was shown as a Starbase thing. That name could change, but I would generally lump starbases in with Fleet Operations and let the Lower Decks fleet be a semi-indepedent "Operational Support Service".
 
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Starfleet Fleet Operations (“Starfleet”, this is the mainline what-we-call Starfleet)

Fleet Operations seems to be a facility and specific personnel attached to it rather than a high-level Command, but YMMV.

-***Starfleet Operational Support Service (Lower Decks “Second Contact” fleet)

Is canonically specifically responsible for the maintenance, upgrade and repair of Starfleet vessels (and facilities?), the "Second Contact Fleet" is therefore a sister component of the Deep Space Corps with Exploration rather than a discrete Command.

-Starfleet Tactical Command (Essentially the military arm of Fleet Operations.)

Seems to be more analogous to DARPA, but may also have wargaming responsibilities.

Starfleet Security (Basically, Federation Police. There would surely be some sub departments, but by and large their law enforcement and guard duty oriented.)

Starfleet Security (which the most detailed outline includes uniformed police, corrections, "special forces" (likely SWAT/HRT or small unit Special Operations capable forces) and intelligence) canonically focuses on Starfleet personnel, their deployed dependents on ships and bases and national security threats of a "military" nature.

Federation Security are the "plain clothes" investigators for top-level civilian criminality. The reporting lines for misdemeanour crimes and felony crimes that don't implicate matter outside of the planet in question are likely handled by local non-Starfleet personnel on most planets*.

-Starfleet Special Forces
*Starfleet Intelligence

Part of the overall "Starfleet Security" community under the Inspector General.

- Department of Temporal Investigations

Explicitly a Federation agency not a Starfleet branch, so more likely under Federation Security.


* Terrestrial Defence Division (aka United Earth Starfleet) Security likely handles such events for Earth, similar to the DC National Guard essentially being part of the regular Armed Forces with elements of the complex relationship that the Coast Guard (particularly the Commandant, an ex-offico member of the Joint Chiefs of Staff).
 
Fleet Operations seems to be a facility and specific personnel attached to it rather than a high-level Command, but YMMV.

It's vague in canon. It gets tossed around a few times.

The purpose of the higher level exercise here is to create a slightly different Trek universe to be a bit more tight and detailed. In this case, things can change, and I think rather than leaving it vague, "Fleet Operations" seems like a decent enough title to give to the fleet.

Is canonically specifically responsible for the maintenance, upgrade and repair of Starfleet vessels (and facilities?), the "Second Contact Fleet" is therefore a sister component of the Deep Space Corps with Exploration rather than a discrete Command.

I acknowledged that. Perhaps I can revamp that.

"Second Contact" isn't really an official name for their organization. They're called "Support Ships" so... I extrapolated Operational Support Service to fill that.

I'm a bit at a loss as to what to actually call the organization if not Operational Support.

*ALTHOUGH* we only actually see it in the 2260's. I'm solely judging this based off the different uniforms worn by the support people in LDS, but I actually don't see any issue with Operational Support Services being both Starbase and ship bound.

We know Operational Support deal with largely with repairs and upgrades. Realistically, that's ALSO the mission profile of the Cerritos... more often than not, the "Second Contact" consists of them going to repair something, upgrade something, help x planet build something, etc.

I feel comfortable having this organization pull both duties.

On just an aesthetic note, it's also entirely possible only the starship personnel get the different uniforms. The starbase people may wear regular Starfleet uniforms just for ease, since they're primarily dealing with Fleet Operations anyway.

I think i'm gonna roll with this.

Seems to be more analogous to DARPA, but may also have wargaming responsibilities.

I think I was TRYING to say something similar to that, and drew a blank.

Yeah Tactical Command isn't a "boots on the ground" organization, it's a strategic think tank with authority to direct resources, build/test things, etc. I wouldn't lump it under Science, just due to being a bit more broadly focused. It's science, engineering, doctrine, research, development, kind of everything. Since it will all primarily affect Fleet Operations, that's where it lives.

Starfleet Security (which the most detailed outline includes uniformed police, corrections, "special forces" (likely SWAT/HRT or small unit Special Operations capable forces) and intelligence) canonically focuses on Starfleet personnel, their deployed dependents on ships and bases and national security threats of a "military" nature.

Federation Security are the "plain clothes" investigators for top-level civilian criminality. The reporting lines for misdemeanour crimes and felony crimes that don't implicate matter outside of the planet in question are likely handled by local non-Starfleet personnel on most planets*.

Part of the overall "Starfleet Security" community under the Inspector General.

Starfleet Intelligence gets mentioned enough as is generally in context as its own organization. TNG "Pegasus" would suggest they definitely are separate organizations, BOTH being specifically involved in the phase cloak incident (Starfleet Security developing it and using it, Intelligence covering it up.)

Looking at it a bit more in-depth, I think we might be looking at somewhat overlapping, similar organizations. Comparing to the US, Starfleet Security and Intelligence combined a few the letter agencies...

Starfleet Security is like the FBI, NSA and Homeland Security.
Starfleet Intelligence is the CIA.

I think, by and large, Starfleet Security is meant to protect internally, Intelligence is meant to protect externally. But they're both intelligence agencies, just with Starfleet Security being generally more publicly present.

Explicitly a Federation agency not a Starfleet branch, so more likely under Federation Security.

Is that ever confirmed? They aren't uniformed, but I don't think that's a requisite for being Starfleet Intelligence.

The line between Starfleet and Federation is blurred anyway, with Starfleet explicitly having a Diplomatic Corps...

* Terrestrial Defence Division (aka United Earth Starfleet) Security likely handles such events for Earth, similar to the DC National Guard essentially being part of the regular Armed Forces with elements of the complex relationship that the Coast Guard (particularly the Commandant, an ex-offico member of the Joint Chiefs of Staff).

100% that's a thing.

Although I would question the organization of it. I'm not sure there would be much in the way of direct coordination between local authorities and Starfleet. We see an interaction in TNG, with Picard requesting information from Vulcan Intelligence. There's no real official channel to so, he just... asks.

Different worlds will handle it differently. Earth specifically, I don't think such police forces would be a part of a military, they would be civilian organizations. That could be different elsewhere, but Earth I think mostly relies on local police and Starfleet when necessary.

In my offshoot, there IS an apparatus to organize member worlds local forces, acting in much the same capacity as NATO.

EDIT -

By the 24th century, Starfleet is absolutely byzantine organization so there will be overlap and redundancies. We can't forget that Starfleet Science has it's own special forces division, Division 14 for dealing with science and medical mishaps involving Starfleet personnel.
 
It's vague in canon. It gets tossed around a few times. The purpose of the higher level exercise here is to create a slightly different Trek universe to be a bit more tight and detailed. In this case, things can change, and I think rather than leaving it vague, "Fleet Operations" seems like a decent enough title to give to the fleet.

But at least a couple of those references are identified as the Fleet Operations Center.

So, IMO using the semi-canon term Exploratory Corps (or the previous informal "Starship Service" occasionally used in BTS documents, particularly for TOS) makes more sense for the main branch.

I'm a bit at a loss as to what to actually call the organization if not Operational Support.

Exploration Support Service?

We know Operational Support deal with largely with repairs and upgrades. I feel comfortable having this organization pull both duties.

We know that they operate starbases that do that, we don't know whether they are mobile as well. Certainly the original plan during the TOS era was for at least three divisions for various functions with a clear demarcation between the starship duty personnel that handle first contacts and most "navy operations", two different frontline static divisions (one for starbases and headquarters direct reports and one for minor outpost and colony personnel) and an auxiliary/reserve division similar to the "merchant marine".

Starfleet Intelligence gets mentioned enough as is generally in context as its own organization

I disagree, Pressman is specifically a senior flag officer in Starfleet Intelligence but invokes the authority of the head of Starfleet Security at one point, suggesting they are in the same general chain of command.

Is that ever confirmed? They aren't uniformed, but I don't think that's a requisite for being Starfleet Intelligence.

It's possible that they aren't, but given that Starfleet personnel (rather than explicitly civilian advisors like Kyle Riker and the Zakdorn from Peak Performance) rather uniformed and Federation Security does exist, I favour assigning them to there to give them more autonomy regarding Starfleet personnel.

The line between Starfleet and Federation is blurred anyway, with Starfleet explicitly having a Diplomatic Corps...

As I noted above, this is more likely the support and security General Schedule grades and similar as with the (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diplomatic_Security_Service) rather than the diplomats and consular officials on the Foreign Service scale.

Although I would question the organization of it. I'm not sure there would be much in the way of direct coordination between local authorities and Starfleet.

For most planets, I suspect that would be on a case-by-case basis, with Earth and other major players being a bit more active.
 
But at least a couple of those references are identified as the Fleet Operations Center.


Which are two different, but probably related, things.

The Fleet Operations Center is... Starfleet Command.

I would extrapolate that the difference between "Fleet Operations Center" and "Starfleet Command" is that SF Command is comprised of the various commands... "Fleet Operations Center" is the physical location of Fleet Operation, within the Starfleet Command campus in San Francisco.

So, IMO using the semi-canon term Exploratory Corps (or the previous informal "Starship Service" occasionally used in BTS documents, particularly for TOS) makes more sense for the main branch.

Exploration Support Service?

Sure, we could also use Deep Space Exploratory Corps, although to some extent i'm really just seeing that as a subset of Fleet Operations... Fleet Operations is the "Starfleet", with several arms of the fleet. I actually kind of like that idea for the differenation between the regular Discovery uniforms and the Enterprise's uniforms. 1701 was Exploratory Corps, Discovery wasn't.

Exploration Support could work, I guess, the name just sounds wrong.



We know that they operate starbases that do that, we don't know whether they are mobile as well. Certainly the original plan during the TOS era was for at least three divisions for various functions with a clear demarcation between the starship duty personnel that handle first contacts and most "navy operations", two different frontline static divisions (one for starbases and headquarters direct reports and one for minor outpost and colony personnel) and an auxiliary/reserve division similar to the "merchant marine".

There were definitely merchant marines, but they appeared to be unconnected to Starfleet. The Vulcans specifically did operate their own merchant marines.

I disagree, Pressman is specifically a senior flag officer in Starfleet Intelligence but invokes the authority of the head of Starfleet Security at one point, suggesting they are in the same general chain of command.

He was Intelligence later on in TNG, Security in the previous events. I can't find any reference available that suggests Security and Intelligence are connected.

It's possible that they aren't, but given that Starfleet personnel (rather than explicitly civilian advisors like Kyle Riker and the Zakdorn from Peak Performance) rather uniformed and Federation Security does exist, I favour assigning them to there to give them more autonomy regarding Starfleet personnel.

I see the argument, but I do prefer a weaker central government for the Federation. I think most any governmental apparatus with any sort of authority goes through Starfleet.

It's not outrageous for Starfleet personnel to be out of uniform. It took Troi 6 seasons to put one on... or compare it to a Detective in law enforcement, they generally don't wear a uniform, but still have authority.

I think Starfleet Intelligence is much less uniformed than other departments by its nature.
 
Which are two different, but probably related, things.

Definitely at least related.

The Fleet Operations Center is... Starfleet Command.

I disagree.

Starfleet Command, is synonymous with either Starfleet Headquarters (ie the Pentagon) or is shorthand for the Starfleet Command Council (ie the Joint Chiefs or more likely the Military Section of the UK Defence Council) for the simple reason that such an element must exist and its the most viable term to use for it.

He was Intelligence later on in TNG, Security in the previous events. I can't find any reference available that suggests Security and Intelligence are connected.

No, he was Starfleet Intelligence later and Exploration Corps or if you insist Fleet Operations first (he was a starship commander), and invokes the name and authority of the Chief of Starfleet Security to reinforce his orders:

PRESSMAN: Well, this time we may have a chance to do it the right way. If this mission is successful, if we find the Pegasus and the experiment, we can finish what we started twelve years ago.
RIKER: You want to try again?
PRESSMAN: It's not just me, Will. The Chief of Starfleet Security has personally given me her assurance of complete support.
RIKER: Admiral Raner? How many other people know about this?
PRESSMAN: Not many, and it's up to us to make sure it stays that way. Raner has given me written orders for you. You'll find them coded in the Enterprise computer. You've been instructed not to reveal the true nature of our mission to anyone else, not even Captain Picard. Will, don't worry. It won't be like it was twelve years ago. And this time, no one's going to stop us.


Which suggests that ADM Raner is the direct top-level authority for one of them, and logically it's more likely to be Intelligence flag officer Pressman rather than starship officer Riker.
 
This discussion has covered a lot of theoretical territory...

Meanwhile, in Star Beagle Adventures, the 1st Reconnaissance of the 1st of the 54th of the U.S. Marines, a.k.a. the Space Hounds, are about to swing into action. Scenes 1.25 - 1.31 will provide a fair exposure to their tactics and gear.
 
*Starfleet Expeditionary Service
-***Starfleet Marine Command (the last vestige of MACO's, "MArine COmmand")

I'd probably follow the UKSF model here and separate the SES/SEF into several "environmental commands" (the split is at sub-unit level IRL, but due to my preference for the SES/SEF to focus on medium to large scale operations, I'd bump it up to at least unit level (deployable on a Miranda, California or similar):

Maritime Operations (informally the "Marines") which focus on "the cold and wet" operations ie sea, polar, and mountain operations.
Air/Space Operations (informally the "Paratroopers") which focus on air support, base security and EVA/OSD insertions in contested areas.
Desert Operations (informally the "Commandos") which focus desert and other "hot and dry" environments.
Recon/Mobility Operations (informally the "Rangers") which primarily the Force's Intelligence, Surveillance, Target Acquisition, and Reconnaissance (ISTAR) component but also support Starfleet Security forces in urban and station security operations not requiring EVA/OSD capacity.
 
I disagree.

Starfleet Command, is synonymous with either Starfleet Headquarters (ie the Pentagon) or is shorthand for the Starfleet Command Council (ie the Joint Chiefs or more likely the Military Section of the UK Defence Council) for the simple reason that such an element must exist and its the most viable term to use for it.

Back in the ENT era, we are shown that the "Fleet Operations Center" is the Starfleet Command building.

Given we have a few disparate things, "Starfleet Command", "Starfleet Headquarters", "Fleet Operations" and "Fleet Operations Center"... I don't think we are far off from each other here, just some nomenclature issues.

To me, from what we have seen,

"Starfleet Command" is the overarching parent organization of all the divisions/branches of Starfleet. I agree that "Starfleet Command" is essentially the "Command Council" or whatever you want to refer to it as.

"Starfleet Headquarters" is the physical structure/grounds, i.e. the Pentagon.

"Fleet Operations Center", from ENT "Demons" and VOY "Non Sequitur", is a part of Starfleet Command. The Starfleet Chief of Staff has an office at the Fleet Operations Center.

"Fleet Operations", would logically be the organization that people in Starfleet Command's Fleet Operations Center command.

So... Starfleet Headquarters is the physical location of Starfleet Command, a part of Starfleet Command is the Fleet Operations Center.

No, he was Starfleet Intelligence later and Exploration Corps or if you insist Fleet Operations first (he was a starship commander), and invokes the name and authority of the Chief of Starfleet Security to reinforce his orders:

PRESSMAN: Well, this time we may have a chance to do it the right way. If this mission is successful, if we find the Pegasus and the experiment, we can finish what we started twelve years ago.
RIKER: You want to try again?
PRESSMAN: It's not just me, Will. The Chief of Starfleet Security has personally given me her assurance of complete support.
RIKER: Admiral Raner? How many other people know about this?
PRESSMAN: Not many, and it's up to us to make sure it stays that way. Raner has given me written orders for you. You'll find them coded in the Enterprise computer. You've been instructed not to reveal the true nature of our mission to anyone else, not even Captain Picard. Will, don't worry. It won't be like it was twelve years ago. And this time, no one's going to stop us.


Which suggests that ADM Raner is the direct top-level authority for one of them, and logically it's more likely to be Intelligence flag officer Pressman rather than starship officer Riker.

I think we are interpreting this far differently.

Pressman was stated to be Starfleet Intelligence at the time of "The Pegasus".

Now i'll say perhaps that Pressman was not actually a member of Starfleet Security, it's just noted that Starfleet Security developed the cloaking device. So he may well have been Exploration Corps that was simply working with Starfleet Security.

But in these quotes, Pressman... being explicitly "Starfleet Intelligence", then says "It's not just me", and he has the assurance of support from Starfleet Security.

To me, that sounds more like Intelligence and Security are working together on this matter, not that there are one in the same. Pressman isn't 100% sure that Riker will trust him directly. He COULD go ahead and order Riker himself, but... Pressman knew there was a chance that might end well. The phase cloak was also Starfleet Security's project and property, so the Chief of Starfleet Security giving Riker written orders makes the whole thing seem more legitimate (in theory), rather than Intelligence Admiral Pressman going on some rogue mission to fix a past mistake.

I don't really have any direct issue with Starfleet Intelligence being a subordinate organization to Starfleet Security... it makes some sense for them to be linked, but i'm just not convinced that's how its presented.

On the other hand, thinking about the relationship of the Expeditionary Force... really digging deep into Starfleet departments and what not, there is a big part of me that wants to adjust my org chart a bit and rather than have it be it's own branch of Starfleet directly, break out Starfleet Tactical Command into it's own branch, with the Expeditionary Force under that command.

For my purposes, i'm keeping "Fleet Operations" as the command for, well, fleet operations. In-universe, it's by far the largest of all of them and when someone refers to "Starfleet", they're usually talking about some flavor of Fleet Operations, although the term could technically apply to anything. (Saying "Starfleet Fleet" sounds redundant, but it's one of those things that results from holdover terminology from the past. Earth Starfleet was just Earth Starfleet. As it ballooned under the Federation, the old name stuck but needed to be expanded out.)

I'm still really on board with the Lower Decks support fleet being a part of Fleet Operations Support. Looking into that alittle, Fleet Operations Support has the authority to give orders to starships. It's really not unreasonable that they have their own fleet under their command to do so, rather than commanding Exploratory Corps ships (or other things).

I think there would be other divisions under "Fleet Operations", so far it's "Deep Space Exploratory Corps" and "Fleet Operations Support". I'm thinking there is a department designation for intra-Federation patrols or what not, the ships we don't hear much about that putz around Federation space doing nothing exciting.

I like to think that in the Discovery-Era, Enterprise was Exploratory Corps, but many of the other ships we see in Discovery are a different command. I also think these departments could change a bit over time, with the Exploratory Corps being a much larger organization post-Khitomer Accords.

Maritime Operations (informally the "Marines") which focus on "the cold and wet" operations ie sea, polar, and mountain operations.
Air/Space Operations (informally the "Paratroopers") which focus on air support, base security and EVA/OSD insertions in contested areas.
Desert Operations (informally the "Commandos") which focus desert and other "hot and dry" environments.
Recon/Mobility Operations (informally the "Rangers") which primarily the Force's Intelligence, Surveillance, Target Acquisition, and Reconnaissance (ISTAR) component but also support Starfleet Security forces in urban and station security operations not requiring EVA/OSD capacity.

I feel like it's a bit more in the spirit of Starfleet to not really have a separate command for these things, but they would have people specializing in certain environments.

"Marines", in context of here, is holdover past nomenclature. They're not specifically amphibious units meant to storm beaches. It's more of a nod to "soldiers being transported to combat on ships and working closely with the "Navy"".

I do particularly like the Desert troops being called Commandos though... in my own backstory I have established for this, in the earliest days of the "Marines" it was specifically Vulcan Commandos who formed the core of desert combat operations given their home environment. It's fitting that the title of "Commandos" continued on in that tradition.

Tangentially related, i'm reworking some of the backstory of the specific alt-universe and tweaking some things. I initially had Daedalus-Class ships showing up post-Romulan War, but i'm tweaking them to have entered service during the war. They're not quite the Daedalus of canon, but close. They're small and meant to be manned by a small crew, a dozen people tops. My new backstory for them is that Tellar, Andor, and Vulcan are getting pummeled by the Romulans, Earth is trying to ramp up production and get ships out to help but they're behind the curve. The Coaliton members reverse their stance on Earth and send engineer observers to help integrate their technology into Earth designs.

They come up with the Daedalus, which is pretty much a flying Space Tube with a Warp 5 Drive stapped to it that proves to be fairly inexpensive, Earth can pump them out with their existing infrastrure fairly quickly, require small crews and use most of it's internal space for weapons (nukes, in this timeline). They're cheap to build because they're glass cannons, held together by Space Duct Tape (or, rather, Frankensteined Vulcan/Andorian/Tellarite shield technology). They also helped with simplifying the production of warp drives so these ships could actually make it to the battle in a reasonable time frame. The Daedalus was easy enough to build that the other Coalition members started to produce them as possible, although by the time they enter production, Vulcan/Andor/Tellar are in very rough shape and barely holding on.

As it relates to the Marines, when the dust settles, the Federation forms and things get back to normal, the Daedalus-Class ships are largely retired... they were never intended to have longevity, they were built to be almost disposable. The fairly early Marines end up with a stock of would-be-decommissioned Daedalus', which form the majority of their early paltry space assets (mostly just used as transports, the missile bays mostly gutted and converted to troop transports).
 
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I feel like it's a bit more in the spirit of Starfleet to not really have a separate command for these things, but they would have people specializing in certain environments.

"Environmental Command" is a poor choice of term, particularly as I've otherwise used "command" to mean the supersized, mostly non-forward deployable, mostly administrative top end that would cover at least a sector if not region.

"Environmental Detachment" might be a better option.

Essentially the vast majority of members of an Expeditionary Force Group (roughly a regiment or demi-brigade-sized composite unit under a Senior Officer or Junior General Officer) are capable of being deployed as a whole if the mission requires it and sufficient capacity is available on starships in the area.

However, as you note they often have to make use of vessels that can only spare the space for a relatively small unit of troops, so a portion of the whole (roughly equivalent to the Maritime Special Purpose Force company within the ground combat element of an MEU) that is typically tailored for that mission is broken off and deployed under a junior or mid-grade officer (Lieutenant or Major).

"Marines", in context of here, is holdover past nomenclature. They're not specifically amphibious units meant to storm beaches. It's more of a nod to "soldiers being transported to combat on ships and working closely with the "Navy"".

Not necessarially, though I imagine that it's a scenario they train for at some level.

A more common mission might be an operation on a Class L world.

The bulk of the ground force intended to be deployed to Rura Penthe for "?Operation Retrieve" would probably have been drawn from the Marine Detachments.

Similar to the Commandos, I see them mainly as the part of the organisation that draws from Andorian traditions and recruits fairly heavily from their colonies and similar worlds.

I do particularly like the Desert troops being called Commandos though... in my own backstory I have established for this, in the earliest days of the "Marines" it was specifically Vulcan Commandos who formed the core of desert combat operations given their home environment. It's fitting that the title of "Commandos" continued on in that tradition.

Basically, the same idea as I had (partly inspired by the SAS' desert & mobility troops/sections within each of their squadrons/platoons)
 
"Environmental Command" is a poor choice of term, particularly as I've otherwise used "command" to mean the supersized, mostly non-forward deployable, mostly administrative top end that would cover at least a sector if not region.

"Environmental Detachment" might be a better option.

That works.

Essentially the vast majority of members of an Expeditionary Force Group (roughly a regiment or demi-brigade-sized composite unit under a Senior Officer or Junior General Officer) are capable of being deployed as a whole if the mission requires it and sufficient capacity is available on starships in the area.

However, as you note they often have to make use of vessels that can only spare the space for a relatively small unit of troops, so a portion of the whole (roughly equivalent to the Maritime Special Purpose Force company within the ground combat element of an MEU) that is typically tailored for that mission is broken off and deployed under a junior or mid-grade officer (Lieutenant or Major).

I've been going the entire time here with the idea that this is a fairly small department, so while there would be more specialized units, I think by and large they tend to follow the Starfleet idea of generalists.

The bulk of the ground force intended to be deployed to Rura Penthe for "?Operation Retrieve" would probably have been drawn from the Marine Detachments.

Similar to the Commandos, I see them mainly as the part of the organisation that draws from Andorian traditions and recruits fairly heavily from their colonies and similar worlds.

Realistically, a good portion of the idea for Starfleet Marines at all comes from Colonel West and Operation Retrieve. 100% that was going to be a Marine operation.

The Federation's strength lies in its diversity. They would be foolish to not, when possible, utilize their assets suited to particular environments. Obviously not every Commando is going to be Vulcan, but when tasked with desert operations... Vulcans are often preferable, and alot of the training/doctrine comes from the Vulcan tradition, just as cold weather operations would more suited to Andorians, and the doctrines are drawn from them. Absolutely.

An idea I had that isn't solely for this organization, but rather sprinkled through Starfleet, are...weaponized Betazoids. The idea of using telepathy in an offensive context would be frowned upon at best by both Betazoid and Federation culture at large, but that's not say it doesn't happen. More so utilized in Intelligence, there are enough Betazoids who are willing to use their telepathic abilities in such a manner. The Expeditionary Force has a few who can be embedded into units when necessary. They would be firmly in the "Special Forces" category and not super publicly known. Should be an attitude around the Federation that... people are pretty sure Starfleet is using Betazoids in that capacity, but they don't advertise it.
 
I've been going the entire time here with the idea that this is a fairly small department, so while there would be more specialized units, I think by and large they tend to follow the Starfleet idea of generalists.

IMO, any member of the force would be capable of operating the generic, temperate environments that the vast majority of action that we see on screen, where the specialists into their own would come in would be rarer situations where a fairly small force (but larger than ship's security teams are set up for (mostly <72hrs sub-unit level deployments) is needed at short notice or as noted there are specific environmental factors in play that again ship's security teams aren't trained for.
 
IMO, any member of the force would be capable of operating the generic, temperate environments that the vast majority of action that we see on screen, where the specialists into their own would come in would be rarer situations where a fairly small force (but larger than ship's security teams are set up for (mostly <72hrs sub-unit level deployments) is needed at short notice or as noted there are specific environmental factors in play that again ship's security teams aren't trained for.

That's reasonable.

Although I do think that ship security teams tend to get at least some training in most environments. We know Starfleet officers get Zero-G combat training, and they've mentioned desert training before. They're by no means specialists, but they at least have had some.

One thing I don't think we can measure the same way do for modern militaries is time. Space is... big. I don't think that it's really possible, unless you have a MASSIVE force, to suggest a particular unit can respond in x amount of time. There might be general goals, but in Trek we see even that it's not always easy to get a ship to Earth quickly enough to deal with situations.
 
Although I do think that ship security teams tend to get at least some training in most environments.

I don't disagree.

I would say 90%+ of scenarios that need to be resolved fast (most of the situations from canon other than perhaps the Nimbus III and Rura Penthe operations) outside of periods where Starfleet is already on a "war footing" or get really lucky on location and availability.
 
I don't disagree.

I would say 90%+ of scenarios that need to be resolved fast (most of the situations from canon other than perhaps the Nimbus III and Rura Penthe operations) outside of periods where Starfleet is already on a "war footing" or get really lucky on location and availability.

Yeah. Pretty much this.

The combat ready troops would presumably be stationed more on the frontier, or where there may be potential hotspots. Unfortunately for the Federation, that's... a vast territory. Gotta figure there is a bunch around Klingon and Cardassian space, as well as some ready to deal with the Romulans.

Outside of that... security officers may need to hold down the situation for a while, or potentially draw some forces from local authorities.

EDIT -

Random confluence of thoughts. I keep going back to uniforms and the like, just because i'm a visual person and they pop in there. I'm trying to fix my conundrum i'm having, and I think I found a reasonable answer.

I both want the fabled Green department color of fan fiction, but I also think they need to utilize the usual Starfleet job color scheme. I think I can do both.

Marine (just, going forward, i'm just going to say Marine for ease of communication) dress uniforms would be the distinct Green. When doing duty on a ship, they're also going to have the Green department color to differentiate from the other crew functions. Within their own organization, on deployment, etc. they utilize the standard color coding.

A quirk I noticed, which may not a quirk at all, is that all flag officers wear the command color. It makes sense... but like, there's some times when there's clearly someone who is Engineering, and in red. I actually like the idea, given that Starfleet is one organization with many branches... once you're flag officer level, you're both in your organization and Starfleet Command at that point. The department colors have more to do with role than branch, so command regardless of where you are is command.

The Marines just have a different rank insignia that follows them through, but otherwise a 24th century General would be in Red like an Admiral.

I used to hate this idea, but having delved much deeper into it through this conversation, I know like the idea of different divisions having different uniforms, or at least, if they so desire.
 
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I both want the fabled Green department color of fan fiction, but I also think they need to utilize the usual Starfleet job color scheme. I think I can do both.

I''d be more inclined to either move the green to the "base" colour instead of blue/black (on most uniforms, bar the TMP issue). Alternatively, it's the "default" colour and used in place of the "command" one, but engineers, medical and science officers still wear the usual colour.

A quirk I noticed, which may not a quirk at all, is that all flag officers wear the command color.

Not the case during TOS, and only sometimes the case in later shows (Toddman and Oh wear gold as a senior member of Starfleet Security but Sisko, Leyton and Benteen don't. Likewise Crusher and LaForge still wear blue and gold as an Admiral (?) and Commodore respectively.

... but like, there's some times when there's clearly someone who is Engineering, and in red.

Such as?

The Marines just have a different rank insignia that follows them through, but otherwise a 24th century General would be in Red like an Admiral.

See above.
 
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