Brainstorm - Starfleet Marines (alittle different)

[Shamrock Holmes]

Actually, the franchise never makes it explicit that Star Fleet is an arm of the Federation (UFP). However, in the Enterprise series (STE), it is explicit that Star Fleet is an arm of United Earth Governments (UEG) which goes on to become a founding member of UFP.

The existence of a version of a Starfleet (that is in some way related to the UESPA) prior to the existence of the Federation complicates the issue, but it doesn't contradict the notion that Starfleet is principally under Federation control (though at least through the 2200s, taskings by the UE were possible, even outside of UE territory).

For the purposes of Star Trek Hunter / Star Beagle Adventures, I felt that UEG was no more likely to turn Star Fleet over to UFP than the US is to turn the US Navy over to NATO

That's not really a valid comparison.

NATO is a non-governmental military coalition, not a government. State assets of various sorts (inc military) are made available to the federal government on a regular basis.

This assumption is supported by the original series episode The Immunity Syndrome, in which Kirk mentions that Star Fleet was experimenting with an all-vulcan crew for one ship. All-human crews are fairly close to normal.

But is contradicted as early as The Gallileo Seven with Federation High Commissioner Ferris having authority over Kirk for the mission that they were on, and the TOS movies are pretty clear on the point that Starfleet is under Federation control by that point.

Also, the idea that the all-Vulcan crew of the Intrepid was an "experiment" is fan speculation (conversely individual Vulcans on mixed-species Starfleet crew has been explicitly described as such) and is not supported by the text of the episode. The most that we can conclusively say is the Vulcan unlike Earth doesn't appear to have gone "all in" on Starfleet and maintain their own starships.

 

[evilchumlee]

But is contradicted as early as The Gallileo Seven with Federation High Commissioner Ferris having authority over Kirk for the mission that they were on, and the TOS movies are pretty clear on the point that Starfleet is under Federation control by that point.

I don't think that necessarily proves that Starfleet is a Federation body. There's implications that can be made, but it could just as easily mean under Federation law... which does not need to be exactly like modern Earth laws... the Federation has some amount of jurisdiction over even member worlds forces.

I don't think it's an outlandish idea. The Federation is an odd polity, with a combination of a somehow strong central government... and a weak central government at the same time. I do think that a certain level of the Federation hierarchy would have some authority over military (or "military") forces fielded by member worlds.

Also, the idea that the all-Vulcan crew of the Intrepid was an "experiment" is fan speculation (conversely individual Vulcans on mixed-species Starfleet crew has been explicitly described as such) and is not supported by the text of the episode. The most that we can conclusively say is the Vulcan unlike Earth doesn't appear to have gone "all in" on Starfleet and maintain their own starships.

I never really understood the whole "experiment" angle. It makes perfect sense that ships may be grouped largely by race, if for nothing else but quality of life. In a strict, wartime military such concerns may be less important by by and large, Starfleet isn't that type of situation. So having a ship of all (or, vast majority) Vulcans creates a much more comfortable environment for them. No disgusting smelling humans, they can turn the lights up brighter, set the environment to be hotter and drier. The recreation areas can be peaceful and quiet.

I was thinking that an all Betazoid crew could make sense, as they would all be used to and comfortable with all all the thoughts throughout the ship and generally in control of them. Andorian crewed ships can be cold and dark. They're still Starfleet, just catering to the needs of a diverse group of people.

In my universe (kind of a tangent away from Marines here), i'm trying to flesh out the early Federation much more. Rather than single-race ships being an "experiment" it's exactly the opposite... the multi-racial integrated ships are the experiment. Early Starfleet is kind of a rag-tag collection of personnel and vessels from the members just assigned to a single command. That's where my Daedalus' come in to play... they're the first Federation-designed vessel, designed to be on the cheap side, easily buildable in any member worlds shipyards, with smaller crews that could be more easily integrated... the small crews being key, due to not having that many volunteers to work on a ship that will certainly be uncomfortable for them, and the whole point of these ships was to be integrated, Federation craft. (I know the Essex had a stated crew of 229... the pro of creating a reboot universe is I can change what I want. Daedalus-Class ships in this universe have a crew of 30-50.) They're also kind of mass produced garbage, fairly quickly replaced by other ships... but the early Federation did churn them out in great numbers, with many still in operation well into the 24th century usually as civilian ships. I have this idea of Daedalus "Frankenships" being a thing, having been upgraded piecemeal over two centuries.

To tie this into the Marines, I actually potentially see the main transport vessel they have access to being Daedalus', in the 23rd century anyway. By the 24th, they're probably replaced the Deadalus transports with Miranda's. For what starships they do have, they tend to have dated vessels... but all they're really using them for is transport and logistics.

 

[Shamrock Holmes]

(I know the Essex had a stated crew of 229... the pro of creating a reboot universe is I can change what I want. Daedalus-Class ships in this universe have a crew of 30-50.)

FWIW, back when the issue was discussed a bit more regularly, the general consensus was that 50 was about the minimum viable number for a long-range starship, particularly during the 22nd and 23rd Centuries, though lighter crewed response vessels and obviously a-to-b freighters (particularly from the mid-24th Century onwards) can manage with less.

 

[Robert Bruce Scott]

NATO is a non-governmental military coalition, not a government. State assets of various sorts (inc military) are made available to the federal government on a regular basis.

For NATO, read United Nations and again imagine the U.S., a member government, turning over the USN. Even though the UNHQ is located in NYC.

Actually, I think that Roddenberry did imagine exactly that. But the franchise soft sells it throughout, which allows me to build a Trek-Verse in which SF remains an arm of UEG, but is so ubiquitous in serving Federation interests that everyone largely conflates it with the Federation and is presented both internally and externally as representing the UFP.

I'm not suggesting that other writers' unique trek-verses should be set up that way. That's part of the fun of fan-fiction. I'm simply justifying the Hunter Trek-Verse as a reasonable interpretation of the variety of situations the franchise presents.

 

[Shamrock Holmes]

For NATO, read United Nations and again imagine the U.S., a member government, turning over the USN. Even though the UNHQ is located in NYC.

In it's entirety of course not, because the US is a sovereign nation and the UN... isn't.

Whereas everything we've seen says that Earth (and indeed everything other member nation) has at best limited sovereignity for internal matters but are entirely subordinate to the Federation bureaucracy for inter-member and external matters.

Actually, I think that Roddenberry did imagine exactly that. But the franchise soft sells it throughout, which allows me to build a Trek-Verse in which SF remains an arm of UEG,

Only during the first season or two of TOS (and obviously during ENT)

After that we get zero references to Earth as an independent political entity to the extent that Federation officials were in total operational control during several states of emergency on Earth.

I'm not saying your can't have your headcanons for fan project purposes, but I can't see any way to reconcile this particular canon with the facts.

 

[evilchumlee]

For NATO, read United Nations and again imagine the U.S., a member government, turning over the USN. Even though the UNHQ is located in NYC.

But the Federation isn't NATO, or the United Nations.

It's much closer to the colony of New York turning over its army to the United States.

Or, maybe even more accurate, it would be akin to the European Union deciding that in addition to having a shared currency and what not, they would also have a unified European Union military.

[QUOTE="Shamrock Holmes, post: 14708760, member: 16648]
Whereas everything we've seen says that Earth (and indeed everything other member nation) has at best limited sovereignity for internal matters but are entirely subordinate to the Federation bureaucracy for inter-member and external matters.

After that we get zero references to Earth as an independent political entity to the extent that Federation officials were in total operational control during several states of emergency on Earth.
[/QUOTE]

Yes and no. The Federation has always been vaguely defined.

We know Bolarus is a Federation member, and yet in TNG "Allegiance" Picard mentions that the Bolians have had hostilities with another race...

Federation members DO seem to have an amount of sovereignty, and member worlds absolutely do/can maintain their own forces. DSC and LDS have both shown the Vulcan fleet. TNG showed us Vulcan Intelligence.

Earth may just be in a odd position with, I don't think, any historical precedent. Earth is the capital of the Federation... but something makes me wonder if Earth is actually closer to something like Washington DC... not a "state" of the Federation, it just... IS the Federation. It's the... "capital member".

There might not have even been a "handover" per say of Starfleet from Earth to the Federation... once the Federation charter was ratified, "Earth" and "The Federation" can essentially be synonymous. Starfleet might technically be an "Earth" organization through the TNG era... it just... is irrelevant.

EDIT -

I had not really thought much about that, but now i'm thinking of a larger shift in my universe in regards to the creation of the Federation and the Romulan War. I may establish that it wasn't exactly a conflict between Earth and Romulus... it was a conflict between the Romulans and Vulcan/Andor/Tellar, absolutely decimating those three worlds with Earth coming in to save the day... it tracks well with Star Trek in general... "Space America comes to save Space Europe in Space WW2". Calling it "The Earth/Romulan War" is a very... Earth thing to do.

By the end, Earth stands the most powerful force, with the other three initial members in absolute shambles. "The Federation" is really "The Earth Empire" just packaged in a nicer way. Hell even the Federation's symbol is... the United Earth symbol, with the galaxy inside of it.

I'm really bought in on this idea. I like this, and I think there's even argument that this is how it is in canon.

 

[Robert Bruce Scott]

By the end, Earth stands the most powerful force, with the other three initial members in absolute shambles. "The Federation" is really "The Earth Empire" just packaged in a nicer way. Hell even the Federation's symbol is... the United Earth symbol, with the galaxy inside of it.

I'm really bought in on this idea. I like this, and I think there's even argument that this is how it is in canon.

It's a good one... Thanks!! rbs

 

[Shamrock Holmes]

The problem is that you've got two contradictory ideas here:

Earth may just be in a odd position with, I don't think, any historical precedent. Earth is the capital of the Federation... but something makes me wonder if Earth is actually closer to something like Washington DC... not a "state" of the Federation, it just... IS the Federation. It's the... "capital member".

Except that DC isn't a member of the United States, it's essentially a "puppet" of the United States as it is almost entirely controlled by the US Government and has little or no power over even it's own internal matters (quite literally the old "taxation without representation" thing.

There might not have even been a "handover" per say of Starfleet from Earth to the Federation... once the Federation charter was ratified, "Earth" and "The Federation" can essentially be synonymous. Starfleet might technically be an "Earth" organization through the TNG era... it just... is irrelevant.

Whereas this would cast Earth as the most powerful political entity in the Federation (which is somewhat backed up by onscreen evidence).

 

[fireproof78]

The DS9/Voyager uniforms make sense as a replacement for the "Monster Maroon" coveralls (which contrary to Starfleet policy might have been used as the daily unifform for the "Marines" by all ranks, unless they used the TFF variant), but they are not a dress uniform and shouldn't be used as such IMO.

For more idea of uniforms Lower Decks has some nice "Special Forces and Covert Ops" ideas fr the 24th century. Guide here.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

Earth is the capital of the Federation... but something makes me wonder if Earth is actually closer to something like Washington DC... not a "state" of the Federation, it just... IS the Federation. It's the... "capital member".

Even after the founding of the Federation, United Earth continues to exist on its own. It's just another member world like any other.

Earth is nothing like DC...it's more like Ottawa, in that respect. Ottawa may be the capital of Canada, but it's a completely normal, regular Canadian city.

 

[Shamrock Holmes]

Earth is nothing like DC...it's more like

Probably 99%+ of the capital cities on the planet to be honest.

But the default always appears to be to assume elements of the USA, sometimes even when other options are implied.

 

[evilchumlee]

Even after the founding of the Federation, United Earth continues to exist on its own. It's just another member world like any other.

Yes, but it's obvious that Earth is and was in control of the Federation. Everything is human and Earth-centric.

Earth is nothing like DC...it's more like Ottawa, in that respect. Ottawa may be the capital of Canada, but it's a completely normal, regular Canadian city.

I was thinking more in the sense that it's the capital, but not a state. It's just... Washington, and is governed (at least in part) directly by Congress.

Given Star Trek 4, it seems that the Federation President has direct authority over Earth...

 

[Shamrock Holmes]

Yes, but it's obvious that Earth is and was in control of the Federation. Everything is human and Earth-centric.

Earth might have a degree of cultural influence over the Federation that is out of step with it being an ordinary member, due to most of the Federation's key locations being based there (due to that being the option least unacceptable to all founding parties and Earth being the most invested in the project), but there's never any indication that this is legally enforced in any way.

Given Star Trek 4, it seems that the Federation President has direct authority over Earth...

Which is the exact opposite of "Earth controls the Federation", particularly if you consider that the majority of UFP Presidents that we've seen in post* (and Archer merely makes it 50:50 across the four) have been non-human and therefore can be assumed to be non-Earth citizens (explicitly so in Jaresh-Inyo's case).

* on screen, not counting TrekLit.

 

[evilchumlee]

[QUOTE="Shamrock Holmes, post: 14710480, member: 16648" Earth being the most invested in the project), but there's never any indication that this is legally enforced in any way.

Which is the exact opposite of "Earth controls the Federation", particularly if you consider that the majority of UFP Presidents that we've seen in post* (and Archer merely makes it 50:50 across the four) have been non-human and therefore can be assumed to be non-Earth citizens (explicitly so in Jaresh-Inyo's case).[/QUOTE]

Snipped to relevant parts,

I think i'm miscommunicating my intent here. It's not that Earth controls the Federation... per say... it's that Earth, for all intents and purposes, is the Federation.

In another setting, that could turn into "humans dominate everything", but this is Star Trek. The Federation is damn near the British Empire in Space, with Earth being England... but in a world where the English were totally ok and supportive of people from every corner of the Empire having equal political power.

It explains why we have the situation of Starfleet, being a Federation organization but also an Earth organization... there's not much of a distinction. Yeah sure "United Earth" exists as an administrative and political division within the Federation, and that may have actually been a more important distinction in the early Federation, but by the time we hit the 24th century? We are told on several occasions, without Earth, everything falls. Other planets are expendable. Earth is not.

Now I don't think there's necessarily a codified, legal document stating Earth controls the Federation. Earth just... does. Earth was comfortable handing over Starfleet to the Federation because... there's so little distinction. Earth's control may just be because it's so all-in on the idea, while others have varying levels of participation. They just kind of took the reigns and that was that.

 

[Shamrock Holmes]

In another setting, that could turn into "humans dominate everything", but this is Star Trek. The Federation is damn near the British Empire in Space, with Earth being England... but in a world where the English were totally ok and supportive of people from every corner of the Empire having equal political power.

Well, then it's not the British Empire, it's a version of the Commonwealth of Nations with teeth, where Britain is the "first among equals".

Or just the United Nations, given that while Earth and its colonies (the "Commonwealth") might do much of the "heavy lifting" as far providing manpower and an "acceptable all-rounder" techbase, there are plenty of entirely disparate cultures and powers within the Federation with no connection to Earth/England (the Vulcans for instance would very much be France in your analogy, and the Andorians... probably a hybrid of Germany and Imperial Russia).

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

Given Star Trek 4, it seems that the Federation President has direct authority over Earth...

Of course. Why wouldn't he?

Just like DS9's Homefront/Paradise Lost. President Jaresh-Inyo is well within his rights to declare a state of emergency on Earth, because Earth is a Federation member world.

Fun fact: In that arc, there was going to be a scene where Jaresh-Inyo "federalizes" local United Earth forces, but that got cut for time.

The point is, Earth is not analogous to D.C. Earth may be the capital of the Federation, but it is still a normal member world of said Federation. It is not a "federal district" or anything like that. United Earth has its own government, its own Federation councillor, and its own interests. Exactly like any other Federation member world. Simple, logical, efficient.

 

[evilchumlee]

[QUOTE="Mr. Laser Beam, post: 14710632, member: 4374"
The point is, Earth is not analogous to D.C. Earth may be the capital of the Federation, but it is still a normal member world of said Federation. It is not a "federal district" or anything like that. United Earth has its own government, its own Federation councillor, and its own interests. Exactly like any other Federation member world. Simple, logical, efficient.[/QUOTE]

That was a bad comparison, yes.

A much better one was mentioned as Earth being the UK of the Commonwealth.

The Federation seems to be a bit more of a hegemony of Earth. In my universe here, i'm very much going to run with that. It's somewhat splitting hairs because in this case, Earth wouldn't abuse it and despite holding the lions share of the power, doesn't really see itself as superior in any way.

I plan on adding in what I postulated before, that the Romulan War was absolutely devastating, but Vulcan, Andor and Tellar took the brunt of it. It took Earth some time to get its fleet retooled for higher warp to be of any use, but once Earth was on full war production, its resources became enormous. Earth rode in, ended the war and then reached out to help rebuild its allies. The Federation was what facilitated that. Earth retained the position of power within it, as a bit of a push and pull... Earth got the power in the Federation in exchange for shouldering the burden of providing the resources to rebuild three ravaged worlds.

It's a fork in the road where history could have went a different direction, but Earth proved to be benevolent and mostly used their power in the Federation to do exactly the function it was initially created for and get the other three members back up on their feet.

It's going on another tangent off the Marines, but i'm going to retool the Romulan War a bit with some American perspective. It's very much Space WW2, and in keeping with trying to stick close... 2156 is still the year... but... it's the year Earth officially got involved. I think i'm going to do an escalating conflict... Tellar is actually fighting them first, somewhere around 2150. Andor gets pulled in a year or two later. By 2154 the Vulcans are involved. By 2156, Earth is able to join. They might have gotten in sooner if not for the Xindi conflict, but really it was that conflict that got Earth shifted into a higher production mode to be able to actually participate. Prior to that, it would have just been NX-01 out there.

 

[Sumghai]

Coming back to the original topic, an idea I've had kicking around for some time is the Starfleet Expeditionary Forces Command (SEFC), comprised of specialist personnel that lead/manage/supervise extended operations on planetary bodies.

Concept

I liked the idea of a dedicated Starfleet ground unit, but don't particularly care for having a standing Federation Army or Starfleet Marine Corps based on the traditions of the USMC. So much like how the Defiant-class "battleship" was euphemistically described as an "escort", calling the ground unit the SEFC is meant to put the focus on expeditions/support while downplaying the "army/marine" aspect.

Scope

• Your garden-variety Starfleet starship crew goes on typically brief away missions
• Second contact support ships (e.g. USS Cerritos) or Starfleet Corps of Engineers may spend a few weeks to a few months setting up/repairing planetary infrastructure
• Starbases (orbital or planetary) are manned by Starfleet Operational Support Services personnel
  
• SEFC personnel are typically deployed for several months at a time on exploration/security/peacekeeping/occupation missions

Typical Deployment

• A SEFC command element, consisting of a CO (CDR), XO (LCDR), Security/Tactical Chief, Chief Medical Officer, Chief Engineer, Chief Science Officer and Chief Operations Officer, supported by a small number of staff officers
• SEFC field teams, whose number and expertise vary depending on the mission (e.g. a planetary invasion/occupation may call for more tactical/security specialists, whereas a humanitarian relief team would have more medical specialists)
• An extremely small number of SEFC field teams may have additional training to handle Omega Directive scenarios (VOY 4x21 "The Omega Directive" mentions specialist teams)
  
• A large (80%) body of Starfleet personnel temporarily seconded (and on rotation) from nearby supporting Starfleet ships

Uniforms & Equipment

• I'm quite partial to some of the uniforms from Star Trek Online, so I'm envisioning SEFC mainly wearing the Odyssey Tactical Uniform as described on the game website's Uniform Code pages (https://www.arcgames.com/en/games/star-trek-online/news/detail/6005833)
• For garrison/office wear, the SEFC would wear whatever standard-issue Starfleet uniform is current, as to blend in with the bulk of Starfleet
  
• Standard issue phaser rifles, tricorders, photon grenades etc.
• Grappling hooks, abseiling gear
• Some kind of lightweight plate carrier-style tactical vest/rig; body armor has been depicted inconsistently in Trek, with the most recent examples seen in DIS, SNW and PIC (Starfleet Security officers from the Utopia Planitia flashback scene)

Ships/Shuttles/Vehicles

• No dedicated ships; SEFC personnel are usually transported to/from theaters on California-class ships
• Shuttles are usually on loan from nearby Starfleet ships, Starbases or Sector Commands
• I have mixed feelings about wheeled vehicles like the Argo Buggy (NEM, LDS) or hovercars/hoversleds

Relationship to other ground forces seen in canon

• MACOs: Stated to be disbanded after the UFP was formed, and all personnel integrated into Starfleet
• "Starfleet Special Forces": First depicted in SNW 2x08 "Under the Cloak of War", I'd imagine they'd be folded back into regular Starfleet after the Fed-Klingon War

 

[evilchumlee]

I liked the idea of a dedicated Starfleet ground unit, but don't particularly care for having a standing Federation Army or Starfleet Marine Corps based on the traditions of the USMC. So much like how the Defiant-class "battleship" was euphemistically described as an "escort", calling the ground unit the SEFC is meant to put the focus on expeditions/support while downplaying the "army/marine" aspect.

I love this, and very much what I was going for.

Scope

• Your garden-variety Starfleet starship crew goes on typically brief away missions
• Second contact support ships (e.g. USS Cerritos) or Starfleet Corps of Engineers may spend a few weeks to a few months setting up/repairing planetary infrastructure
• Starbases (orbital or planetary) are manned by Starfleet Operational Support Services personnel
  
• SEFC personnel are typically deployed for several months at a time on exploration/security/peacekeeping/occupation missions

I love the mission profile here. They aren't necessarily "Marines" there to show up for war, create a beachhead and pass it off to "Army".

This Expeditionary Force is more... mid/long duration ground missions without a starship for direct support.

It makes sense along the lines of something like the Utility ships... they go for "second contact" for more administrative duties, whereas the SEFC would be there for generally more physical purposes. I could see them being deployed onto a world experiencing civil unrest or some such as a security force. Something of a mix of Marines/Coast Guard/National Guard/Police.

• 
  

  [*]No dedicated ships; SEFC personnel are usually transported to/from theaters on California-class ships
  [*]Shuttles are usually on loan from nearby Starfleet ships, Starbases or Sector Commands
  [*]I have mixed feelings about wheeled vehicles like the Argo Buggy (NEM, LDS) or hovercars/hoversleds

I do like no dedicated starships. Been going with that since word one. I think they would be better served with smaller craft available directly to them.

We know several "ground vehicles" exist, so they would be the most likely to operate them. It makes sense they would have some, given they would operating without the support of a starship often times. At the least, they need to get around.

Relationship to other ground forces seen in canon

• MACOs: Stated to be disbanded after the UFP was formed, and all personnel integrated into Starfleet
• "Starfleet Special Forces": First depicted in SNW 2x08 "Under the Cloak of War", I'd imagine they'd be folded back into regular Starfleet after the Fed-Klingon War

Yeah MACO's are long gone.

Special Forces I think could well be a section of this.

I've been tossing it around and I think i'm back to preferring it NOT be a separate branch per say, but still largely it's own department within Starfleet with it's own ranks and culture. They're all still Starfleet, but given the different needs and missions, they have their own command structure.

 

[Sumghai]

We know several "ground vehicles" exist, so they would be the most likely to operate them. It makes sense they would have some, given they would operating without the support of a starship often times. At the least, they need to get around.

In that case, probably a handful of shuttles and runabouts permanently assigned to the SEFC, as well as some Argo-style ground vehicles for environments where use of transporters/shuttles are not possible (e.g. interference fields)

Special Forces I think could well be a section of this.

I'd assume that some SEFC field teams are basically Special Forces / CSAR capable.

I've been tossing it around and I think i'm back to preferring it NOT be a separate branch per say, but still largely it's own department within Starfleet with it's own ranks and culture. They're all still Starfleet, but given the different needs and missions, they have their own command structure.

Agreed!

A while back I saw a poorly-Photoshopped screenshot from DS9 6x05 "Favor the Bold", where someone re-imagined RADMs Cobum and Sitak as "Starfleet Marine" officers with green-colored undershirts on their uniforms. That's definitely not what we'd want here with the hypothetical SEFC.