darkwing_duck1
Vice Admiral
Uh no...I liked the show and liked it even MORE once B&B stepped back from it (Season 4) and hated the FINALE that B&B forced on them.
Get your facts straight.
Braga is, it seems, STILL an idiot!
- Thread starter darkwing_duck1
- Start date
- Status
Uh no...I liked the show and liked it even MORE once B&B stepped back from it (Season 4) and hated the FINALE that B&B forced on them.
Get your facts straight.
Okay, Braga admits TATV sucked, good for him. But he keeps saying that TATV didn't "turn out so well." But what I don't get is - how the hell did he expect it to turn out? I mean, it's not like it's a case of a good script ruined by lousy acting and directing. It's the story itself that is fundamentally retarded.
Now, is it really possible that there was no one, NO ONE, who read the script before production and recognized the piece of shit it was?
Is it really possible that no one warned the B&B's what might happen if they actually shoot that crap? Was there really no one to tell them: "Rick, Brannon, dudes... Think about this for a minute, fans may not like this?"
Did everyone involved in ENT suffer from collective blindness and stupidity, or did the B&B's simply ignore others' opinions?
And what were Coto's thoughts on TATV? He had none! He actually (sorta) praised it at first, but now he simply refuses to talk about it! In one interview (a year or so ago), he was asked about TATV, and he said (I quote): "I'm not getting into that, Rick and Brannon are my friends."
My point - the reasons behind TATV's failure are clear, evident & obvious, and they should have been obvious before the episode was even produced. So WTF went wrong?
Now, is it really possible that there was no one, NO ONE, who read the script before production and recognized the piece of shit it was?
Is it really possible that no one warned the B&B's what might happen if they actually shoot that crap? Was there really no one to tell them: "Rick, Brannon, dudes... Think about this for a minute, fans may not like this?"
Did everyone involved in ENT suffer from collective blindness and stupidity, or did the B&B's simply ignore others' opinions?
And what were Coto's thoughts on TATV? He had none! He actually (sorta) praised it at first, but now he simply refuses to talk about it! In one interview (a year or so ago), he was asked about TATV, and he said (I quote): "I'm not getting into that, Rick and Brannon are my friends."
My point - the reasons behind TATV's failure are clear, evident & obvious, and they should have been obvious before the episode was even produced. So WTF went wrong?
Last edited:
I don't agree with this, the reasons why TATV was so rubbish was because of bad writing, bad directing and terrible acting. Braga is at fault for the writing part of things, but often in Trek a bad script is saved by good direction and acting (and the reverse is also true). That did not happen in the case of TATV because everyone seemed to be phoning it in.
TATV was never going to be a great episode with that script, but it could have been decent. If somebody else had written that script with the same basic concepts then it could have been a classic. It was apathy on all fronts that sank TATV, the ideas themselves weren't that bad.
Yes, but terrible acting is a direct result of a ridiculously bad story/script. I suppose the actors couldn't take their own lines seriously, like that Archer's "Absence makes the heart grow fonder" nonsense (Bakula indeed looked genuinely embarrassed saying it).
Plus, of course, the fact that the regular cast was offended by being relegated to supporting cast in their own finale.
As I already stated, it all started with an idiotic script which should have been recognized as such while there was still time to make some changes. However, the B&B's were not able the come up with something better simply because they both suffered from star trek fatigue.
But they wanted to write the finale by themselves anyway, just for the f*ck of it, and they never even bothered to gain some insight from Coto (or anyone else but them FTM).
And then they slapped the Valentine label...
Last edited:
hated TATV but mollified by Braga's admission it didn't go well. Don't love Ent any less for TATV and like Braga's overall take on Trek. Time to move on and put all the $ we can behind the Movie so CBS will develop more Trek projects! Three months people!
i couldn't disgree more. The last thing this new TREK movie series needs is some Television show sharing the spotlight. It will no doubt lead to using the sets on the TV series, which does nothing but send a signal to Joe-Q public that the movies are just TWO episodes, but at the movies. (Which is what most of TREK movies do feel like, especially the later ones...warmed over TV scripts)...
So...CBS..listen up..NO TREK SERIES!!!
Rob
Why ever not!?!?!?!? Every series has had a couple stinkers among the bunch but for the most part they've all been quality program creating people we love and admire and even some we love to hate! I say the more Trek choice we're offered the better!
darkwing_duck1
Vice Admiral
I don't think so, myself. I seem to recall some of the "insiders" that used to post here from the prod staff warning us what was about to happen.
I think you answered your own question with your last sentence.
Manny still has to work in Hollywood, and it isn't wise to be seen as "narcing" on a "respected producer" like Berman (in particular).
This is just my theory, but it fits with what was happening on the ground at the time. I think TaTV was indeed engineered to piss off the fans, and "salt the field" to keep "Enterprise" from EVER finding it's way back to the screen.
Remember what was happening in fandom...letters, emails, phone calls...all BEGGING Paramount for just ONE more season to give Coto and the Reeves-Stevenses a chance to finish turning the show around. The TrekUnited campaign was in full steam mode, and generating publicity that there were ANGRY fans out there.
I think either on his own, or possibly on orders from the PTB (likely Moonives, who is a well-known HATER of sci fi) Berman and Braga stabbed the franchise in the back.
Take note of what happened after that. The Star Trek offices were completely shut down. ALL the nearly 30 years of production talent and resources were let go and or gotten rid of. The tv and movie rights were deliberately split between CBS and Paramount.
All of it designed to keep there from EVER again being one united "Star Trek Franchise".
Actually, the concept of an episode where Trek characters from the 24th century use the holodeck to re-create characters from the 22nd is, in and of itself, an interesting idea, and I think it would have worked great if:
1. It was not presented as the series finale, but rather as just a normal episode halfway through any particular season.
2. It was not awkwardly wedged into the "Pegasus" storyline of TNG.
3. It didn't take place in 2161, years after the previous episode but with nothing having changed in all that time (no promotions, transfers, etc.)
4. Trip's death wasn't included, or if it was, not having the future observer (in this case Deanna Troi) adopt a completely uncaring attitude toward it. (But quite frankly I can't think of a single good reason why Trip had to die. It added absolutely nothing to the story.)
Even the cast's awkward acting could be explained away as an inaccurate holodeck representation of the real crew from the 22nd century.
1. It was not presented as the series finale, but rather as just a normal episode halfway through any particular season.
2. It was not awkwardly wedged into the "Pegasus" storyline of TNG.
3. It didn't take place in 2161, years after the previous episode but with nothing having changed in all that time (no promotions, transfers, etc.)
4. Trip's death wasn't included, or if it was, not having the future observer (in this case Deanna Troi) adopt a completely uncaring attitude toward it. (But quite frankly I can't think of a single good reason why Trip had to die. It added absolutely nothing to the story.)
Even the cast's awkward acting could be explained away as an inaccurate holodeck representation of the real crew from the 22nd century.
darkwing_duck1
Vice Admiral
I'm saying that I can't help but wonder given what was happening at the time combined with the PAINFULLY OBVIOUS stupidity of B&B's decisions about TATV...
I don't think anyone is defending his choices. He basically amitted it was a bad idea and didn't turn out good. What more do you want said? Remember, at the time it was his day job and he's moved on to other things. the ONLY people still obsessing or essentially crying for blood are the more rabid fans; and at this point I think you just need to move on too.
FYI - I overall rank ENT as the #2 best Star Trek series (TOS is #1 for me); and I wish ENT had suvived to get more seasons; dislike TATV alot (I have the DVD set and have ALSO watched ALL the ENT episodes in native HD - have 13 of those sitting on my HD DVR until the Blu-Ray ENT series sets are released); WITH the exception on TATV. I haven't watched tht episopde since it aired, and I leave it at that.
To expect Brannon Braga to somehow prostrate himself and 'beg forgiveness of fans' is ridiculous. In all the interviews since the episode aired, he's basically admitted it turned out badly; and wasn't a good story and was poorly executed. 4 years later, I'm still amazed he even answers questions on it. Move on, get over it, and ignore it. It's one episode out of 98; and is easily skipped.
number6
Vice Admiral
I'm not turning this into a TATV Suxx thread. The decisions that B&B made vis-a-vis TATV are only "painfully obvious" to those who are blind with rage and hatred for these men. The episode was lackluster, but I didn't hate it. The fact that it was the last episode of televised Trek made it even more disappointing, but I understood what they were trying to do: Put the series into an historical perspective with the rest of Trek by making it a relevant part of a TNG episode. They were using this as a bookend for all the Trek series. That's what we got. How well it was executed is certainly up for debate, but their intentions were certainly clear. I don't think they realised how bad the show was until it was onscreen, but that has happened often over the course of 18 years of Trek on television. We used to hear comments like that in every "year end Trek review" publicized in our favourite SF mags.
The fact that TATV was made doesn't negate the good that Trek has offered, nor does it negate the quality of Braga's written work, which I liked overall.
I'm not "defending" anything. I am being realistic. The hatred is over the top and it's pretty tired. Move on. Please.
You made some good points earlier, but I'm afraid that you're 100% wrong in your above statement.
Both Braga and Berman sincerely believed that TATV was a well-written send-off for Enterprise at the time. Other people in ST production didn't feel the same way, but they either kept their mouths shut or just didn't care about it, since this was the end anyway.
If Les Moonves wanted to cancel the show he would have just cancelled it, and not developed some convoluted plan to piss off fans of the show. Whether Moonves loved or hated sci-fi is irrelevant; from a network executive's point of view, the show cost a ridiculous amount of money to produce while getting few returns, while instead they could produce ten crappy reality shows for the same amount of money and garner huge returns in ratings. As with everything in life, ENTERPRISE's demise had to do with money, not whether Moonves liked science fiction. The only reason ENT got a fourth season was so that they could make even more money on it with DVD sales.
There was no conspiracy theory, and B&B truly felt they were doing good.
RobertScorpio
Pariah
Couldn't have said it better. We all saw TATV and can take from it what we want. The network abandoned the show, and they tried to bookend all the shows there. Maybe if they had a two hour story to tell, then they could have added more...but unlike all the other modern shows, it didn't get that big send off...
Now, I am not a fan of Enterprise. I thought the crew became too 'space aware' too quickly, and I wish it had stayed raw...but it is what it is...turn the page..
Rob
Despite all his faliures (especially disquisting TATV, in which he killed Trip) I must bow before Braga beacuse he is Jerifucker. 
My distaste for him has really, really shrunken a lot since "TATV." Reality set in and while I don't care for him all that much overall he was no more to blame for the turd finale than UPN or Paramount were. The truncated one-hour slot they forced the Beebs to write for allowed for little quarter or quality.
That's absurd. I have nothing against Berman, and I honestly love most of Braga's work, but I still believe that TATV was beyond ridiculous and that it's flaws should have been obvious to everyone long before the production began.
Basically, I agree with that. I also think that most of these passionate TATV/B&B bashers are still bitter because subconsciously they still feel the need for closure, something they never got from ENT, and especially not from TATV. In their subconscious minds, "Enterprise" to this day remains unfinished, I dare say.
I really don't think about it day in and day out...but I still hate TATV and it irritates me that Braga felt (feels?) that it was a Valentine to the fans.
I despise that writers somehow believe that a death of a character is going to be a powerful, emotional or edgy thing. It has become an empty and hollow device too often substituted for good storytelling & writing. Trip's (or any regular character's) death during the finale would have upset me regardless, but the way it was written really and truly felt like a visceral blow...and Braga almost seemed to revel in the death of this particular character.
That being said, I liked ENT and by extension I am grateful for Braga's role...Braga never really blipped on my radar until TATV. I liked many of the episodes that he wrote for TNG. I am able to enjoy his more successful episodes of Trek and ignore TATV.
I despise that writers somehow believe that a death of a character is going to be a powerful, emotional or edgy thing. It has become an empty and hollow device too often substituted for good storytelling & writing. Trip's (or any regular character's) death during the finale would have upset me regardless, but the way it was written really and truly felt like a visceral blow...and Braga almost seemed to revel in the death of this particular character.
That being said, I liked ENT and by extension I am grateful for Braga's role...Braga never really blipped on my radar until TATV. I liked many of the episodes that he wrote for TNG. I am able to enjoy his more successful episodes of Trek and ignore TATV.
Last night, I thought things in here were actually settling down. Dopey me.
Stop with the veiled insults, and passing judgment on other posters' personal opinions, and telling each other how to think or feel or deal with this issue, which is still obviously a sore spot with some folks.
Step back and give each other a little room to breathe. Okay?
Everyone, please... stuff like this isn't helping.
Stop with the veiled insults, and passing judgment on other posters' personal opinions, and telling each other how to think or feel or deal with this issue, which is still obviously a sore spot with some folks.
Step back and give each other a little room to breathe. Okay?
Ok, I'll jump in and answer this grammatically deplorable challenge.
Braga worked on and wrote for Trek for a very long time. Anyone who writes for the same TV show (or anything else) for more than a decade deserves a bit of slack when it comes to running out of ideas. I would challenge anyone who disagrees to illustrate that they even have the qualifications to be a staff writer for the "Lifetime" network before criticizing a writer with as many stories under his/her belt as Braga.
Since he presumably knew that the cancellation of Enterprise would end Star Trek's tenure on television for a significant period of time, Braga's concept of utilizing a multi-series finale is actually a very good one. It is unfortunate that it didn't work out, but one must keep in mind the time constraints that the writers of Trek work under.
Braga acknowledges that the episode didn't work as well as planned.
If you didn't like the one episode of Enterprise, recognize that Braga is only one of many creative influences on the episode, he is working for a living (and how many of us can claim perfection at work?!?), and that he and Berman were responsible for HUNDREDS of hours of great Star Trek shows.
- Status
Similar threads
