Braga is, it seems, STILL an idiot!

[pookha]

braga probably should have stepped back and recognized how much by then he was removed from the show both mentally and emotionally.
he was in the midst of prepping for theshold and in a lot ways seems to have lost touch with his own creation.

i also dont see some great conspiracy that involved moonves but i wouldnt be suprised if braga slipped into sticking it to the fans as he worked on the script .

i also wonder about the choice of pegasus.
he and moore have had an off, on , off relationship for some time.
it makes one wonder considering how tatv just trashes pegasus.

overall tatv just wasnt up to some of the stuff braga had written. he had written even for enterprise far better stories.
sometimes the thing feels so disconnected one wonders if they are seeing glimpses of the outline done a year earlier and just tucked in without really checking to see if a paticular set piece fit in with what had come before.

 

[commodore64]

I also think Number Six has it right. Braga didn't intentionally try to piss off fans -- any fans -- or Ron Moore. TATV wasn't the worst thing to ever happen and Braga was fair when he said it didn't quite work.

 

[SFRabid]

What surprises me is he broke a standard rule in television, don't kill a star when your show is going into syndacated reruns. It hurts the ratings.

 

[Trek Survivor]

Berman never saw DS9 as being all that important so he let the line producers pretty much run it and Braga was on Voyager.

Kindly give me a quote attributed to Berman where he says he never saw DS9 as important and I'll give you credit... what's that? Such a thing doesn't exist? Oh well - no credit for your arguments today then.

I've heard this ridiculous notion before - Berman co-created DS9 and saw it as very "important". Just because he was more hands on with Voyager (which let's face it, needed help more than DS9), and trusted those HE had placed in charge of running DS9, does not infer some idea fans have that Berman didn't like DS9!?!?!??!?!

 

[TheGodBen]

I've heard this ridiculous notion before - Berman co-created DS9 and saw it as very "important". Just because he was more hands on with Voyager (which let's face it, needed help more than DS9), and trusted those HE had placed in charge of running DS9, does not infer some idea fans have that Berman didn't like DS9!?!?!??!?!

While there is no quote from Berman saying he disliked DS9, certain pieces of information point in that direction. There are numerous quotes from DS9's writers and cast that DS9 was treated as the "bastard child" of the franchise while it was on air, but they saw that as a blessing since it gave them more creative freedom. There are stories that Berman hated the Dominion war idea and wanted it to be resolved by the fourth episode of season 6. Ira Behr negotiated it up to five episodes, then six, then he ignored Berman and let it run for two years. If this is true then I think it shows that Berman didn't really care all that much about DS9 because he didn't bother fighting for it like Ira and the rest of writing staff did. Finally, according to the Memory Alpha article on the Dominion War, Berman was critical of the depressing and violent stories DS9 told.

This is all anecdotal of course, and I'm sure Berman was proud of DS9 in his way; I know he speaks very fondly of how it built up a large cast of recurring characters. I hate to sound like a Berman basher, but I'm glad he stayed out of it as much as he did because I like the direction that Ira Behr took the show.

 

[number6]

I've heard this ridiculous notion before - Berman co-created DS9 and saw it as very "important". Just because he was more hands on with Voyager (which let's face it, needed help more than DS9), and trusted those HE had placed in charge of running DS9, does not infer some idea fans have that Berman didn't like DS9!?!?!??!?!

While there is no quote from Berman saying he disliked DS9, certain pieces of information point in that direction. There are numerous quotes from DS9's writers and cast that DS9 was treated as the "bastard child" of the franchise while it was on air, but they saw that as a blessing since it gave them more creative freedom. There are stories that Berman hated the Dominion war idea and wanted it to be resolved by the fourth episode of season 6. Ira Behr negotiated it up to five episodes, then six, then he ignored Berman and let it run for two years. If this is true then I think it shows that Berman didn't really care all that much about DS9 because he didn't bother fighting for it like Ira and the rest of writing staff did. Finally, according to the Memory Alpha article on the Dominion War, Berman was critical of the depressing and violent stories DS9 told.

This is all anecdotal of course, and I'm sure Berman was proud of DS9 in his way; I know he speaks very fondly of how it built up a large cast of recurring characters. I hate to sound like a Berman basher, but I'm glad he stayed out of it as much as he did because I like the direction that Ira Behr took the show.

The whole "Berman wasn't involved in DS9" theory is fallacious. He was never the show runner, but as Exec Producer, he certainly had his hand in it as much as any Executive Producer of a Trek series would. The fact is that UPN didn't want DS9. They wanted a new show, a shipboard show, to be the network cornerstone and that's why VOY was created. Berman oversaw the creation and production of that as well as two TNG films during that period. That doesn't mean he didn't care about DS9 or didn't devote any time to it. He hired great people for that show and since Paramount and UPN were focused on micromanaging VOY, DS9 (feeling left out of all of that) were pretty much allowed to break ground and do what it needed to do in syndication. Berman had a great deal of say and often argued about things in the WWGRD context. It was also his idea to bring Worf onto DS9, which saved the show from oblivion after a lackluster third season without another Trek series on the air.

VOY and ENT suffered from micromanaging from the suits moreso than TNG and DS9 because they were on a network and not syndication. UPN pushed for VOY to be more like TNG and for ENT to have phasers and transporters. If B&B had entirely had their way with ENT we would have seen a different show.
Most people who blame Berman or Braga for the wetness of rain don't have any idea of the politics going on at UPN that led to the various retoolings of VOY and the blander "familiar" storylines on ENT.
When Les Moonves was put in charge he decided that UPN was a "real" network (despite not even being on the air in 100% of the markets) and slashed any and all shows that weren't pulling in "real network" numbers. That's why UPN cancelled ENT. It had very little to do with what "fans" think the show's failings were. The fact that is was a Star Trek show was why it got that 4th yearl. If Les Moonves had entirely had his way, ENT would have been gone in Year 3.


And yet, four years on, I have yet to see a "Les Moonves is, it seems, STILL an idiot!" thread anywhere. If fans need someone to be truly pissed at for the demise of televised Trek, they should at least direct their anger at the right people.

 

[TheGodBen]

The whole "Berman wasn't involved in DS9" theory is fallacious.

I know he was involved and I know he had arguments with Ira Behr about the direction DS9 was going, I remember Ron Moore talking about the argument of how much of Nog's leg should be amputated (Ira: 2 legs, Berman: none, end result: one leg just above the knee). But Berman was the senior EP and he was the head of Star Trek, if he really wanted to let DS9 to be lighter as it is claimed he did then he could have forced that and he might have been able to fire Ira Behr if he didn't play along. I don't know if Berman is that sort of person, but if someone was ruining something that I cared passionately about then it is a measure I would take.

You are right that Berman had to care more about Voyager since it was UPN's flagship show so there was a lot of responsibility placed on him for that. He also had a lot on his hands producing the feature films. I'm sure he cared about DS9, especially since it was the first TV he is credited as creating, but he wasn't as involved in it as he was on Voyager or Enterprise. Only he knows how he really feels about DS9, but the impression I get is that he was proud of it on many levels and upset with some of the creative decisions made against his wishes.

 

[commodore64]

What surprises me is he broke a standard rule in television, don't kill a star when your show is going into syndacated reruns. It hurts the ratings.

I know of a lot of shows, though, that do that ... especially in the sci-fi genre: Blake's 7, Farscape (though we find out later they didn't die), etc. Seems to have worked okay for them.

 

[number6]

The whole "Berman wasn't involved in DS9" theory is fallacious.

I know he was involved and I know he had arguments with Ira Behr about the direction DS9 was going, I remember Ron Moore talking about the argument of how much of Nog's leg should be amputated (Ira: 2 legs, Berman: none, end result: one leg just above the knee). But Berman was the senior EP and he was the head of Star Trek, if he really wanted to let DS9 to be lighter as it is claimed he did then he could have forced that and he might have been able to fire Ira Behr if he didn't play along. I don't know if Berman is that sort of person, but if someone was ruining something that I cared passionately about then it is a measure I would take.

I don't know where would draw that conclusion. It would seem that we got a compromise between Exec Producer and show runner.. Nothing more. Most of the arguments with Berman seemed to fall mostly within the context of what GR would or wouldn't have approved of. Ira Behr always tried to push that envelope. Piller and Berman set the series on non Starfleetspace station for that purpose. Don't forget that a great deal of Star Trek fans thought DS9 was too dark. There is a great deal of revisionism that goes on in the minds of Star Trek fans regarding DS9. Fans thought it was too dark and didn't like that it wasn't on a starship. That's why they brought in the Defiant and brought Worf onto the show: To bring back the TNG fans that abandoned DS9 for being too dark and gritty.

You are right that Berman had to care more about Voyager since it was UPN's flagship show so there was a lot of responsibility placed on him for that.

I didn't say that. Berman oversaw the production of two television shows and TNG feature films. UPN put its energy into having the Trek team create VOY because they thought DS9 was too dark and wanted a ship show like TNG. From all indications Berman had his hand in all the productions that were going on. Berman allowed DS9 to run on its own simply because the show had run for a few years already and had their staff and stories well in place. Once VOY was up and running he did th same. Ira Behr ran DS9 and Jeri Taylor ran VOY. Berman sat in on meetings and oversaw both shows.

He also had a lot on his hands producing the feature films. I'm sure he cared about DS9, especially since it was the first TV he is credited as creating, but he wasn't as involved in it as he was on Voyager or Enterprise.

He was certainly more involved in ENT as he contributed to a considerable amount of scripts. Until he puts out his book that he's been talking about one can only guess how involved he was overall. There is no real indication that he was involved with VOY any more or less than he was involved in DS9. Based on info and interviews conducted at the time, I would hazard a guess that his time was divided equally between DS9, VOY, feature films and developing ENT.

Only he knows how he really feels about DS9, but the impression I get is that he was proud of it on many levels and upset with some of the creative decisions made against his wishes.

There were certainly disagreements on certain things. Gene Roddenberry had disagreements about a great deal of things too. The only difference was that GR was never in charge of the shows the way Berman was. GR really only oversaw the first two seasons of TNG. By season 3, he was too ill.

But think about it: He fought against having a Klingon on the bridge. He fought against having Patrick Stewart as Picard. Not a single person here would infer that GR was NOT proud of TNG, despite his disagreements between him, the show runners, the writers, and other producers. And believe me, those battles were far worse and far uglier than anything Berman had during his 18 years of Modern Trek.

 

[RAMA]

He aknowledges his failure on the writing of TATV.
He still asserts his intent with the episode and admits the story was lackluster.
He misses Star Trek and wishes it well with the new people that are running it now.

I don't see the problem here.

Why must we always make it one?

I agree. Personally I like the finale, but I can see why people wouldn't. Braga at least mentions thinking it "didn't work".

RAMA

 

[SFRabid]

What surprises me is he broke a standard rule in television, don't kill a star when your show is going into syndacated reruns. It hurts the ratings.

I know of a lot of shows, though, that do that ... especially in the sci-fi genre: Blake's 7, Farscape (though we find out later they didn't die), etc. Seems to have worked okay for them.

I don't think that I would use those two shows as examples of success.

 

[cooleddie74]

He aknowledges his failure on the writing of TATV.
He still asserts his intent with the episode and admits the story was lackluster.
He misses Star Trek and wishes it well with the new people that are running it now.

I don't see the problem here.

Why must we always make it one?

I agree. Personally I like the finale, but I can see why people wouldn't. Braga at least mentions thinking it "didn't work".

RAMA

True. Some of us wish he'd said so almost four years ago...but better late than never. Getting booted from the franchise along with Berman has sort of humbled the guy and made him more honest.

 

[pookha]

I also think Number Six has it right. Braga didn't intentionally try to piss off fans -- any fans -- or Ron Moore. TATV wasn't the worst thing to ever happen and Braga was fair when he said it didn't quite work.

do you know he didnt try and hack at moore.
he and moore have had a snipe fest going back and forth for awhile.
the little stint of moore's on voyager didnt end well.
and moore had been very critical of enterprise.
then there was the possible oddness of the character ruby just having to have the same name as moore's former wife.

well actually during that first season of enterprise moore and ruby were still married.

also the farmer who shot the klingon in broken bow was named moore.
it is just odd that of all the stories braga could have picked he didnt pick one of his but rather one of moore's.

 

[number6]

I also think Number Six has it right. Braga didn't intentionally try to piss off fans -- any fans -- or Ron Moore. TATV wasn't the worst thing to ever happen and Braga was fair when he said it didn't quite work.

do you know he didnt try and hack at moore.

You don't.

he and moore have had a snipe fest going back and forth for awhile.
the little stint of moore's on voyager didnt end well.
and moore had been very critical of enterprise.
then there was the possible oddness of the character ruby just having to have the same name as moore's former wife.

The snipefest you refer to seems to be one sided. Braga had always spoken well of Moore.

well actually during that first season of enterprise moore and ruby were still married.

also the farmer who shot the klingon in broken bow was named moore.
it is just odd that of all the stories braga could have picked he didnt pick one of his but rather one of moore's.

Braga named the farmer who shot the Klingon Moore as an homage because Moore wrote some of the best Klingon episodes for TNG and DS9.

Moore was bitter because he didn't expect to be working "under" Braga on VOY because previously they had always wrote as a team. As such Moore was not a team player on that show and was asked to leave. That is certainly a contributing factor as to why Moore was critical of both shows. The fact that TNG and DS9 were syndicated shows and that Moore had more latitude with the stories he wanted to tell was also a factor. That VOY and ENT were network shows and were constantly under the scrutinous eye of the network contributed to the atmosphere in the writing rooms for both shows. Moore buried the hatchet with Braga long before the end of ENT as evidenced by their easygoing attitudes in their commentaries for GEN and FC.

I don't think that naming Ruby after Moore's wife was a knock on him. I can't see it being taken as such, expecially since Ruby was such a likable character on the show.

 

[commodore64]

Number Six is correct. Moore and Braga may not be best of pals, but Braga indicated in previous interviews the farmer was indeed a homage to Moore.

You know, I miss the two of them writing together. I think they're better together than apart.

SFRabid, touche.

 

[number6]

I miss their collaborations as well, but I think they both contributed some fine episodes on their own as well. I could always tell from the opening credits that there was some good Trek on the way whenever their names were onscreen.

 

[TheGodBen]

As such Moore was not a team player on that show and was asked to leave.

Do you have a source for this?

 

[number6]

As such Moore was not a team player on that show and was asked to leave.

Do you have a source for this?

Interviews with Moore himself have been posted all over this BBS. I am sure he said it was a "mutual decision", but that information came from his own interview.

 

[Mirror_Barclay]

Braga has done a lot of good Trek and good TV (I liked Threshold). He's made some decisions that I didn't care for but that were commercially successful - like bringing Worf onto DS9.

But TATV was pure idiocy, and I don't think he realizes just how badly he screwed up.

As I recall, someone claimed on a previous TATV bashing thread that Frakes tried to warn Braga about it. True or not, it shouldn't have been necessary.

 

[number6]

Braga has done a lot of good Trek and good TV (I liked Threshold). He's made some decisions that I didn't care for but that were commercially successful - like bringing Worf onto DS9.

But TATV was pure idiocy, and I don't think he realizes just how badly he screwed up.

As I recall, someone claimed on a previous TATV bashing thread that Frakes tried to warn Braga about it. True or not, it shouldn't have been necessary.

Again, Braga wasn't involved with DS9. The decision to bring Worf onto the show was Rick Berman's.

Frakes would have never warned Braga about TATV. He would have simply been happy to be working on the show. I remember the interviews and the clips very well. They were posted here ad nauseum when the show was still on the air. Frakes said nothing of the kind.

Braga likely knows fully well how people feel about TATV. That is why he continues to comment on it four years later. They keep asking him.