Bolians

[Therin of Andor]

But if a Federation President is from Bolarus, it DOES imply that Bolarus is a very well-integrated Federation Member, rather than being one whose populace doesn't interact much with the rest of the Federation.

Well, people are always going to toss the "not canon" argument at that one.

But DS9's "Paradise Lost" showed a Bolian as canonical Commandant of Starfleet Academy. How likely is it that a representative of a non-UFP member race would achieve that post?

http://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/Unnamed_Starfleet_Academy_personnel#Academy_commandant

 

[Dion]

Here's some food for thought that may end up opening a can of worms:

Bolians aren't as ubiquitous in TNG as they are in DS9. The probable reason for this is that they were only invented for 'Conspiracy' and it took some time for the producers to start using them in the background and to start referencing them often...but of course fanon can come up with their own reasons for why this would be the case in-universe.

Make of that what you will (sorry I'm staying firmly sitting on the fence )

 

[Mike Have-Not]

To you all; who cares about the Bolians? They were the layering in a very tasty sandwich of Star Trek epicness, that's all we need to know.

Bolians are prominent enough to justify a discussion of this much depth. If this thread were about Grazerites on the other hand...

*is tempted to start a thread about Grazerites now*

 

[Timo]

How likely is it that a representative of a non-UFP member race would achieve that post?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_J._Pershing
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chester_W._Nimitz
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marc_Mitscher
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carl_Andrew_Spaatz

For all we know, every single Bolian we saw was a descendant of people fleeing from the oppressive government of Bolarus, and many were glad to serve in the UFP military in the many wars it fought against that horrid regime.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[T'Girl]

But DS9's "Paradise Lost" showed a Bolian as canonical Commandant of Starfleet Academy. How likely is it that a representative of a non-UFP member race would achieve that post?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_J._Pershing
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chester_W._Nimitz
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marc_Mitscher
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carl_Andrew_Spaatz

Not sure of the point you making with these wiki links. All the men sighted were native born in states that were already "members" of the union in which they eventually served.

Pershing in Missouri, Nimitz in Texas, Mitscher in Wisconsin, and Spaatz in Pennsylvania.

If the Bolian who was the commandant of the academy were similar to the men you sighted, then Bolius would have been a member of the federation at the time of his birth.

 

[Deks]

Here's some food for thought that may end up opening a can of worms:

Bolians aren't as ubiquitous in TNG as they are in DS9. The probable reason for this is that they were only invented for 'Conspiracy' and it took some time for the producers to start using them in the background and to start referencing them often...but of course fanon can come up with their own reasons for why this would be the case in-universe.

Make of that what you will (sorry I'm staying firmly sitting on the fence )

In terms of Trek (in-universe wise), that could be described in a manner of FC with the Bolians taking place some time in early TNG, or just before Enterprise-D launched for example.

They could have excellent relations with the Federation and the ability to move and work freely within it and SF without Bolarus being an actual member just like certain countries that aren't part of EU today have a series of bilateral agreements allowing their citizens all the rights and privileges of EU membership without being in it.
Bolarus could have chosen to stay outside of the Federation precisely because it's economy is based on money for example and as such is incompatible with Federation's own system.
Bolarus could also be in the process of becoming a UFP member planet, but it may be taking time because the economy needs to be adapted to the UFP model - one that would eliminate money.
If bank of Bolarus actually deals with money (which it may not), then it's possible the planet needs to change it's economical practices for becoming a UFP member (which would likely be a requirement much like 'having no caste system' is), or they would choose to remain outside of UFP and keep privileges of membership that allow individual Bolians who wish it, to work and live in the Federation (but they would obviously need to adapt to the law of no money).

Think of it like this... many people today would likely jump at the chance of living in a moneyless economy as described in Trek... so the % of Bolians we are seeing are could be but a smaller portion of those who are leaving Bolarus exactly because they don't like money based economy and are looking something else.

 

[Timo]

If the Bolian who was the commandant of the academy were similar to the men you sighted, then Bolius would have been a member of the federation at the time of his birth.

Umm, no. That would be a situation analogous to Germany being a US state during WWII.

Think it through. Nimitz, Pershing, Mitscher and Spaaz were Germans, exactly as much (or as little) as the Starfleet Academy commandant is Bolian. ETHNICALLY. In both cases, it's impossible to say anything about their nationality or allegiances by sight, without further information - and in both cases, such extra information reveals that their allegiance now is different from their ethnic origin (which makes it likely that their nationality is also different, although this is not explicitly said about the Bolian).

It's just that in the case of the four flag officers, we can't even tell their ethnic makeup by sight, whereas telling the ethnicity of a Bolian by sight is trivially easy. And that makes some people blind to the fact that the Bolian might well be the grandson of a UFP citizen while his second cousin was a Bolian in the service of the foreign and hostile Bolian military, and that the two Bolians would on occasion fire on each other in anger that had nothing to do with domestic quarreling.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Therin of Andor]

*is tempted to start a thread about Grazerites now*

Well... the problem there is that the term "Grazerite" never made it from script to screen. So "not canon".

 

[Sci]

How likely is it that a representative of a non-UFP member race would achieve that post?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_J._Pershing
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chester_W._Nimitz
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marc_Mitscher
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carl_Andrew_Spaatz

For all we know, every single Bolian we saw was a descendant of people fleeing from the oppressive government of Bolarus, and many were glad to serve in the UFP military in the many wars it fought against that horrid regime.

That's possible, sure. But there's no actual evidence for it. All things being equal, the simplest explanation is that Bolarus is a Federation Member.

 

[Timo]

...Except for the little hints that it's quite a bit different from the UFP-at-large. There's the bank thing, and then there's the separate foreign policy thing ("Allegiance").

The writers did seem to be thinking in terms of non-membership. "The Chase" had the explicit reference to such edited out. And had "Rapture" been written with Bolarus rather than Benzar as the planet liberated by Romulans, it would have been quite a surprise and outrage had an actual UFP member been left in Romulan hands afterwards; much less so if Bolarus was just an ally.

All things indeed being neutral otherwise (which is the point I want to make with the German US flag officers), we could assume membership or non-membership equally well. And the little things would tend to favor non-membership.

...Although the same could certainly be said of Vulcan, too, if not for the explicit reference to membership.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[T'Girl]

Except for the little hints that it's quite a bit different from the UFP-at-large. There's the bank thing, and then there's the separate foreign policy thing ("Allegiance").

From TUC, the Vulcan have a foreign embassy with the Klingons, seemly separate from any such that the Federation possesses. So not everything a member does is through the Federation. The truce the Bolians have with the Moropa could be like the British and the Falklands War. The British could have invoked the NATO treaty when their territory was invaded, but choose not to. Similarly, the Bolians choose not to bring in Starfleet, but instead handle the matter themselves, a more low key approach. Resulting in the uneasy truce with the Moropa.

And the Bolian's bank isn't a problem, likely the majority of the Federation membership have something similar.

Those small number who wish to pretend that no money exists just hold their hand up next to the side of their faces as they walk past the banks.

And the little things would tend to favor non-membership.

YMMV, but I believe the greater evidence is for membership.

 

[Sibo191]

All this nit-picking

Memory alpha clearly says

The Bolians were a humanoid species who were native to the Federation planet Bolarus IX.

 

[Therin of Andor]

Memory alpha clearly says

The Bolians were a humanoid species who were native to the Federation planet Bolarus IX.

But Memory Alpha is a public wiki and anyone can change it.

As I said earlier, TNG's "The Chase" was going to have a piece of comedy where barber Mot reveals that Bolarus XI was not a UFP member, but it was never filmed. Since then, DS9 showed a Bolian Commandant of Starfleet Academy, so the DS9 writers were seemingly ignoring the dropped scene completely, which they were free to do, of course.

 

[The Wormhole]

^^Even if we wanted to acknowledge the cut scene, we could just assume that Bolarus IX joined the Federation some point after The Chase.

 

[Sibo191]

Memory alpha clearly says

The Bolians were a humanoid species who were native to the Federation planet Bolarus IX.

But Memory Alpha is a public wiki and anyone can change it.

As I said earlier, TNG's "The Chase" was going to have a piece of comedy where barber Mot reveals that Bolarus XI was not a UFP member, but it was never filmed. Since then, DS9 showed a Bolian Commandant of Starfleet Academy, so the DS9 writers were seemingly ignoring the dropped scene completely, which they were free to do, of course.

Yes it is a public wiki, but it has been sited on this site before many times as a source for all things canon. Kind of senseless to pick and choose when you will use something as a 'cannon source' onnly when it suits your argument.

 

[Timo]

Make no mistake - Memory Alpha is never an acceptable source of canon.

It is at best a source that accurately describes what was seen on screen. But that's only at best - one would be hard pressed to find even a single article that doesn't contain assumptions, interpretations and downright mistakes.

However, pointing to a Memory Alpha treatise on something, while at the same time reminding the reader of the possible mistakes and assumptions in that treatise, certainly saves time...

Timo Saloniemi

 

[mupps]

Except for the little hints that it's quite a bit different from the UFP-at-large. There's the bank thing, and then there's the separate foreign policy thing ("Allegiance").

From TUC, the Vulcan have a foreign embassy with the Klingons, seemly separate from any such that the Federation possesses. So not everything a member does is through the Federation. The truce the Bolians have with the Moropa could be like the British and the Falklands War. The British could have invoked the NATO treaty when their territory was invaded, but choose not to. Similarly, the Bolians choose not to bring in Starfleet, but instead handle the matter themselves, a more low key approach. Resulting in the uneasy truce with the Moropa.

Actually they couldn't. The NATO treaty is region specific.

 

[JB2005]

^ And it's a dumb analogy anyway, NATO wouldn't have gotten involved because the Americans were pushing for joint sovereignty between the UK/US/Argentina! (Quite where the Americans got their justification for sovereignty...)

It's more like one, imagine if the EU has a mutual defence pact (don't think we do yet...) and let's say that one of the French overseas territories is invaded, now in theory the entire EU would be obligated to mobilise their forces, but it might be that the French Government don't want the outside help for political reasons...

 

[T'Girl]

Actually they couldn't. The NATO treaty is region specific.

... islands under the jurisdiction of any of the Parties in the North Atlantic ...

I should have read article six more carefully. On further study, Britain did receive support from her NATO allies, just not through the treaty. European commands were quietly "stripped of kit," America provided intelligence, fuel and munitions.

Americans were pushing for joint sovereignty

Given the special relationship between America and Britain (and between Reagan and Thacher) this seems highly unlikely, source please?

 

[Ethros]

So the DS9 writers were free to ignore a scene that never aired, was never even shot, and never ever existed?... erm, well yeah, I should hope they were