Bolians

[JB2005]

Actually they couldn't. The NATO treaty is region specific.

... islands under the jurisdiction of any of the Parties in the North Atlantic ...

I should have read article six more carefully. On further study, Britain did receive support from her NATO allies, just not through the treaty. European commands were quietly "stripped of kit," America provided intelligence, fuel and munitions.

Americans were pushing for joint sovereignty

Given the special relationship between America and Britain (and between Reagan and Thacher) this seems highly unlikely, source please?

Mrs Thatcher's Autobiography...

 

[Deks]

So the DS9 writers were free to ignore a scene that never aired, was never even shot, and never ever existed?... erm, well yeah, I should hope they were

Ds9 often took it upon itself to ignore various aspects in Trek for the sake of the drama.
I'm not saying other shows didn't do this, but Ds9 was as far as I know more prominent in this so it could come off as more 'dramatic' (in my opinion, it only turned out boring).

 

[Timo]

Still, ignoring something that was never there seems part of everybody's inborn mandate...

Accepting the Bolians as UFP members (and then never bothering to confirm this) was the less dramatic choice, certainly.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Deks]

While it may seem perfectly reasonable and justifiable that Ds9 writers would ignore a non-filmed aspect of a preceding show, they also didn't provide concrete proof that Bolians (or Risans for that matter) are UFP members even though we've seen numerous Bolians serving in various positions throughout Federation (for which both you and I Timo explained that Bolarus doesn't have to be a member planet).

 

[Sci]

While it may seem perfectly reasonable and justifiable that Ds9 writers would ignore a non-filmed aspect of a preceding show, they also didn't provide concrete proof that Bolians (or Risans for that matter)

Risa was explicitly established as a Federation Member in "Let He Who Is Without Sin...:"

"It's an artificially created paradise, maintained by the most elaborate weather control system in the Federation."

 

[T'Girl]

A weather control system they possessed before the creation of the Federation (ENT), they didn't get it from the Federation, it was part of Risa, when Risa joined the Federation.

 

[Sci]

A weather control system they possessed before the creation of the Federation (ENT), they didn't get it from the Federation, it was part of Risa, when Risa joined the Federation.

Well, whether or not the weather control system predates Federation Membership is irrelevant. What is relevant is that that weather control system cannot be described as "in the Federation" unless Risa itself is a Federation Member. That's the only relevant issue in my prior post -- Risa's Federation Membership.

 

[Deks]

That's pure conjecture.
Worf was describing technological capabilities of Risas weather control system.
The way he said it also could be interpreted as using his knowledge of Federation technology for nothing more than a basis of comparison because he lived and worked in the Federation.
That's not proof that Risa is a UFP member at all.

Any Klingon who worked and lived in the Empire for example would likely use their own basis of comparison (or the technology available within the Klingon empire).

It could also easily mean that Risa is 'surrounded' by Federation territory, but not part of it.

Did we hear explicitly that Risans were referred to as Federation members?
No.
We only heard Worf's description of their technology using his own means of comparison.
Nothing more.

 

[Sci]

That's pure conjecture.
Worf was describing technological capabilities of Risas weather control system.
The way he said it also could be interpreted as using his knowledge of Federation technology for nothing more than a basis of comparison because he lived and worked in the Federation.

Oh, bullshit. He wouldn't have called it a weather control system in the Federation if Risa were not in the Federation.

Did we hear explicitly that Risans were referred to as Federation members?
No.
We only heard Worf's description of their technology using his own means of comparison.
Nothing more.

In addition to Worf describing Risa as having the most sophisticated weather control system in the Federation, we also saw Jadzia Dax noting that, as a Starfleet officer, she was legally empowered to arrest members of the New Essentialists movement for violating the law. Makes sense if Risa is a Federation Member; makes no sense if it's a foreign world.

Also, why would the New Essentialists be protesting the perceived erosion of Federation values on a non-Federation world?

 

[Deks]

Oh, bullshit. He wouldn't have called it a weather control system in the Federation if Risa were not in the Federation.

Quite the 'eloquent' response you have there colored by a very nice assumption.
Worf's accurate words:
" It's an artificially created paradise, maintained by the most elaborate weather control system in the Federation."

I don't perceive this as an indication that Risa itself was in the Federation.
Here is how I see it:
He was describing a specific piece of technology and effectively compared it to other models in operation in the Federation.

In addition to Worf describing Risa as having the most sophisticated weather control system in the Federation, we also saw Jadzia Dax noting that, as a Starfleet officer, she was legally empowered to arrest members of the New Essentialists movement for violating the law. Makes sense if Risa is a Federation Member; makes no sense if it's a foreign world.

Also, why would the New Essentialists be protesting the perceived erosion of Federation values on a non-Federation world?

Not if Risa has diplomatic ties with the Federation and SF (which it probably does) but isn't a member.
The Federation in turn could have various agreements with Risa that allow sharing of technology and resources, plus, SF officers could be helping 'policing' the planet and as such have certain amount of authority there.
Besides, the members of New Essentialists were seeing Risa as the main instigator for 'decadence'.
They in turn could have been (and in all probability were) Federation citizens who would likely be subject to being arrested by SF... and even if they weren't, if Risa allows SF to police the planet, then the New Essenitalists movement broke local laws by sabotaging vital piece of technology for weather control.

Besides, Dax could have turned them over to Risan security forces after she made the arrest.

There are numerous ways to explain it, none of which require for Risa to be a member of UFP (which granted could be interpreted from what Worf said, but also allows for other interpretations).
Besides, Risa could be a petitioning member on the verge of being absorbed into UFP at the time those events took place.

Finally, SF officers were seen as arresting criminals on non-member worlds.

 

[T'Girl]

If Worf had said that Romulus was maintained by the most elaborate weather control system in the Federation, the statement would have made no sense Deks.

It would be like saying that Vulcan possessed the largest desert in the Federation, and then insisting that Vulcan wasn't a Federation member.

Or saying that The People's Republic of China had the largest hydro-electric dam in the European Union.

Did we hear explicitly that Risans were referred to as Federation members?

We also never heard anyone explicitly say, in no uncertain words, that Risa wasn't a Federation member (like with New Sydney) so your point is meaningless.

The dialog evidence is that Risa is a member.

 

[Timo]

Agreed there. Usually, these things are absolutely neutral, and here we at least have a fairly definite piece of evidence one way - I'm quite willing to grasp that one!

Whether Risa would need to be a foreign world in order to be an attractive holiday resort is a separate argument. Probably not, I'd say: we have free-spirit, easygoing "artist/thinker worlds" like Ardana that stand apart from the greyness of the rest of the Federation without the need for them to be foreign, and that would probably work for entertainment worlds as well.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Therin of Andor]

Yes it is a public wiki, but it has been sited on this site before many times as a source for all things canon.

Memory Alpha is sometimes cited here for canon sources because one of Memory Alpha's rules is that it supposedly only permits canon sources (and official production materials, which is why MA permits the Fletcher/Phillips names of TMP aliens, even though they were never named onscreen, and material from TAS, even though it's not a live action show).

MA is not infallible. People change its contents every day. Entries often get polluted by fan misinterpretations.

The Roddenberry/Star Trek Office definition of "ST canon" was tighter than MA: live action material that made it onscreen. Not TAS, not live action scenes filmed for licensed video games, not references in scripts or cut scenes.

Kind of senseless to pick and choose when you will use something as a 'cannon source' onnly when it suits your argument.

I'm not "picking and choosing". MA is not ever a definitive answer, just a guide. Bolarus not being a UFP member was from a dropped TNG scene, and was a factoid seemingly ignored by DS9.

 

[Timo]

...Much like the idea that Spock came from Mars or ate energy through a metal plate in his chest.

It's just that "Bolarus isn't a member" was dropped slightly later in the production process than those early ideas about Spock. But it was dropped, as much as the idea that Archer paid Risan officials in dilithium for the "Two Days and Two Nights" visit, even though that very scene was actually filmed and only then omitted. It's not part of the Star Trek universe, then.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Sci]

Oh, bullshit. He wouldn't have called it a weather control system in the Federation if Risa were not in the Federation.

Quite the 'eloquent' response you have there colored by a very nice assumption.
Worf's accurate words:
" It's an artificially created paradise, maintained by the most elaborate weather control system in the Federation."

I don't perceive this as an indication that Risa itself was in the Federation.

If your response to hearing that something is in the Federation is to insist that that doesn't mean it's in the Federation, then I really don't know what evidence you will accept.

It's literally the equivalent of hearing someone say, "New York City is the largest city in the United States" and then insisting that that doesn't mean New York State is part of the Union.

 

[T'Girl]

Semantics.

 

[Deks]

It's literally the equivalent of hearing someone say, "New York City is the largest city in the United States" and then insisting that that doesn't mean New York State is part of the Union.

Except that we know that New York is part of the United States.
We never got a clear an cut statement that Risa IS a UFP member.
As I said earlier, it could be on the verge of membership and/or have various agreements with UFP that allow sharing of resources, technology and even officers working together.
Worf could have easily been comparing Risa's weather modification net technology with the one available in the Federation for comparison sake, because it was the closest point of reference for him.
We don't know what his exact meaning was... it 'might' have been that Risa is a UFP member, but it also could be interpreted in another manner.

No other instances in Ds9 or TNG (let alone Voyager) alluded to the premise that Risa 'might' be a UFP member.

Until we get something 'concrete' (at that it has to come from 'canon'), I'm not particularly inclined to think that Risa is a UFP member. I consider it as a possibility of course, but the 'evidence' we got is rather slim to form a final conclusion.

 

[JB2005]

If you're comparing two distinct entities you say "than" not "in", watch:

Scotland has the most mountainous regions in the UK.

Ireland has a lower population than England.

If English isn't your first language Deks, fair enough it's an honest mistake...if it is though, then you're just arguing about something that makes no logical sense...

Risa has the most powerful technology "In" The Federation, means they're "in the Federation."

"Risa has more powerful technology "than" the Federation." Is what you're arguing Worf said, but he didn't!

 

[RoJoHen]

Yeah, Worf's statement doesn't really leave much room for interpretation.

 

[T'Girl]

It's literally the equivalent of hearing someone say, "New York City is the largest city in the United States" and then insisting that that doesn't mean New York State is part of the Union.

Except that we know that New York is part of the United States.

That knowledge would make no difference to the statement. Try it with another slightly rewording.

New York City has the most elaborate subway system in the United States. Now if the city of New York were outside of the United States, even if the area that held it were right on the verge of joining the nation, the subway system would not be the most elaborate in the United States. Washington DC metro would hold that honor.

Even if you had no idea whether or not NYC were in the US prior to hearing the statement, the wording of the statement would tell you the city was "in the United States."

As I said earlier, it could be on the verge of membership ...

Then Risa would have the most elaborate system outside the Federation.