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Bob Orci's Comment: The Film Stood on its Own Without...[Spoilers]

If you're going to use Khan's people you might as well use Khan and not some faceless, nameless guy from amongst them. I doubt I'd care as much if Khan wasn't used at all.

I think they intended to use Khan since they did the first movie and considered showing the Botany Bay at the end of that film.
 
If you're going to use Khan's people you might as well use Khan and not some faceless, nameless guy from amongst them.

His name is John Harrison and his face is this:

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I doubt I'd care as much if Khan wasn't used at all.
So you wouldn't care about any original villain, you'd only care about Khan?


Seriously, NOTHING would change in this film would you let him be JUST John Harrison.
 
I prefer him as Khan, and I think Cumberbatch did a terrific job.
 
The only issue I have with my scenario though is that I remember that in Space Seed they said that Khan's cryo-tube was activated first. Perhaps there was some way I'm sure to get around that or to ignore it. I mean, it is the alternate reality after all.
If you're willing to ignore the cryotubes being completely different, you should be able to ignore the different waking sequence. ;)
 
Well if Section 31 found the Botany Bay, they didn't have to start with the same cryo tube that the Enterprise crew did in the prime timeline, did they? Different people, different sequence of events. Makes sense. :shrug:
 
^I haven't seen the movie yet but it is my understanding that the blood cure hardly comes out of nowhere.
Isn't it introduced to the story from the very start of the movie with the little girl and later in some kind of tribble experiment? Or am I wrong?

It does pretty much come out of nowhere if you haven’t been reading the spoilers. I’ll address the two points that you consider to have set up the blood cure.

First, the little girl. What we know is that the little girl is sick, doctors can’t help her, then Khan gives the father a drug that cures her. This lets us know that Khan has some kind of wonderful drug that is not available to 23rd-century medicine. The drug is the color of movie blood, so that might be seen as an indication that Khan’s blood is the special ingredient that will enable 23rd-century doctors to reproduce the drug, but it’s a pretty big leap for someone who doesn’t go into the movie already knowing it to be the case. There is certainly no reason to expect, at this point in the movie, that the wonder drug can not only cure a sick little girl but also reanimate the dead (even when the cause of death doesn’t seem to be related to the girl's illness).

Second, the tribble. McCoy says that Khan’s cells are extraordinarily resilient, and he injects a sample of Khan’s blood into some necrotic tribble tissue in the hope of learning something about the mechanism. It’s not until after Kirk’s death that the necrotic tissue sample turns into a living, breathing tribble.

If you go into the film already knowing about Khan’s blood and how it will ultimately be used, then those two scenes are easily recognized as related to what you already know is going to happen. But if you don’t go into the film already knowing that Khan’s blood can reanimate the dead, the tribble waking up is the first sign of its resurrectional quality.
 
Well if Section 31 found the Botany Bay, they didn't have to start with the same cryo tube that the Enterprise crew did in the prime timeline, did they? Different people, different sequence of events. Makes sense. :shrug:

Khan's charisma just oozes out of his tube and calls to you, "you shouldn't let me sleep.."

Also I'm going with the leader's tube being somehow prominent, even though I don't recall that being the case in Space Seed.
 
Saying "the 'blood cure' comes out of nowhere" is an obtuse statement. The scene with the young girl made it pretty explicit that they were using Khan's blood to heal her terminal disease. The "reanimation" experiment with the Tribble was also pretty blatant. The blood cure was established so well that one could argue that it was too obvious.
 
Indeed. I didn't know anything about the story beyond what was shown in trailers, and it was very easy to follow the whole thread of the cure.
 
I find the "magic blood" comments interesting, as I've been seeing them in several threads.

We've seen people broken into their quantum components and teleported great distances, we've seen starships move at hundreds, even thousands of times the speed of light, we've seen godlike beings playing with humans like they were toys, we've seen diseases that destroy DNA, aging crew members until they look ancient, only to be restored to youth by the previously mentioned quantum teleportation device, we've seen a torpedo that causes a dead planet to be completely changed into a living biosphere in a matter of minutes, yet in this movie, someone uses blood that has been genetically modified to resuscitate recently dead tissue, and that's "magic."

Well, wouldn't McCoy have looked stupid if Kirk was O-, and Khan had turned out to be AB+?

What blood type do tribbles have, anyway?
 
^I haven't seen the movie yet but it is my understanding that the blood cure hardly comes out of nowhere.
Isn't it introduced to the story from the very start of the movie with the little girl and later in some kind of tribble experiment? Or am I wrong?

It does pretty much come out of nowhere if you haven’t been reading the spoilers. I’ll address the two points that you consider to have set up the blood cure.

First, the little girl. What we know is that the little girl is sick, doctors can’t help her, then Khan gives the father a drug that cures her. This lets us know that Khan has some kind of wonderful drug that is not available to 23rd-century medicine. The drug is the color of movie blood, so that might be seen as an indication that Khan’s blood is the special ingredient that will enable 23rd-century doctors to reproduce the drug, but it’s a pretty big leap for someone who doesn’t go into the movie already knowing it to be the case. There is certainly no reason to expect, at this point in the movie, that the wonder drug can not only cure a sick little girl but also reanimate the dead (even when the cause of death doesn’t seem to be related to the girl's illness).

Second, the tribble. McCoy says that Khan’s cells are extraordinarily resilient, and he injects a sample of Khan’s blood into some necrotic tribble tissue in the hope of learning something about the mechanism. It’s not until after Kirk’s death that the necrotic tissue sample turns into a living, breathing tribble.

If you go into the film already knowing about Khan’s blood and how it will ultimately be used, then those two scenes are easily recognized as related to what you already know is going to happen. But if you don’t go into the film already knowing that Khan’s blood can reanimate the dead, the tribble waking up is the first sign of its resurrectional quality.

I knew it quickly, and had remained unspoilered. When Khan made the serum for the little girl, I noted that it looked like blood. Still, I was unsure. When McCoy used the blood in the tribble, I knew immediately that someone was about to die, at which point I also made the connection back to the little girl, that she was cured by a serum made from Khan's blood.

A few moments after the "Khaaaan!" scene, where Kirk died, the guy next to me whispered, "he's going to use Khan's blood!", at which point my friend to my left leaned over, "I bet he's going to use Khan's blood to bring Kirk back to life, just like they did for the little girl."

So it didn't seem like a difficult connection to make. They laid the groundwork pretty well.
 
Well, I haven't seen the movie yet. But still, would an aggressive tyrant who ruled half of Asia submit to "his people" being held "hostage"? I'd think he would have ripped some heads off at the beginning, and it'd be a done deal.

While there might certainly have been blood shed, it wasn't needless.

Kirk: He was the best of the tyrants, and the most dangerous.
Scotty: There were no massacres under his rule.
McCoy: No war until he was attacked.

After all, he took over an entire starship in 'Space Seed'.

And killed no one in the process. Heck, he was perfectly willing to allow the crew to join his cause and that they would be treated well. When he was threatening to kill Kirk, he kept sweetening the deal that went from Spock joining to spare Kirk to ANYONE joining to spare Kirk. This is not an inherently evil character who likes to just kill people for no reason. Unfortunately that's not what Bob and Alex thought when they decided to have Spock Prime chime in and tell NuSpock that Khan wouldn't hesitate to kill anyone.
 
Yeah, well Spock-Prime saw the crew of Regula One, hanging upside down with their blood draining out. I believe Khan and his people did that.

Added: Spock didn't actually SEE it, he was on Enterprise. But he was given a report of it without a doubt.
 
Yeah, well Spock-Prime saw the crew of Regula One, hanging upside down with their blood draining out. I believe Khan and his people did that.

Added: Spock didn't actually SEE it, he was on Enterprise. But he was given a report of it without a doubt.
That was a Khan who had been marooned on a desert world for twenty years. He's entitled to be a little nutso at that point.
 
Yeah, well Spock-Prime saw the crew of Regula One, hanging upside down with their blood draining out. I believe Khan and his people did that.

Added: Spock didn't actually SEE it, he was on Enterprise. But he was given a report of it without a doubt.
That was a Khan who had been marooned on a desert world for twenty years. He's entitled to be a little nutso at that point.

And this Khan was forced to work for Marcus after being revived for nearly a year, and is then under the impression that his crew - which was held by Marcus - was murdered.

As far as movie-antagonists go, his actions are restrained.
 
As far as movie-antagonists go, his actions are restrained.

Like the part where he decides to murder Kirk and his entire crew even after he had taken control of the Vengeance and believed he had gotten his entire crew back? Yeah, very restrained.
 
Yeah, well Spock-Prime saw the crew of Regula One, hanging upside down with their blood draining out. I believe Khan and his people did that.

Added: Spock didn't actually SEE it, he was on Enterprise. But he was given a report of it without a doubt.
That was a Khan who had been marooned on a desert world for twenty years. He's entitled to be a little nutso at that point.

My response was to:
Unfortunately that's not what Bob and Alex thought when they decided to have Spock Prime chime in and tell NuSpock that Khan wouldn't hesitate to kill anyone.

Spock-Prime is recounting to Spock his experience with Khan.
 
I wasn't necessary for him to be Kahn. If they had to do the augments thing, I think it would have been better to make him a member of Khan's crew, and have Khan still in cryo. It never made a lot of sense in Space Seed and STID that the first person they woke up was the leader of the group. From what I recall from Space Seed, they just randomly picked Khan. It could have been anybody.
By waking up someone else, the movie could have essentially been the same, but with the threat of having Khan still available for another (perhaps better?) movie down the road.
 
That was a Khan who had been marooned on a desert world for twenty years. He's entitled to be a little nutso at that point.

Oh, come on. Every monster has their rationalization for what they do. After all, Hitler wrote Mein Kampf. Let's not have a serious argument that Khan is a good guy. He's not.
 
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