Bob Orci's Comment: The Film Stood on its Own Without...[Spoilers]

[Ryan8bit]

Then were do you draw the line? Shall we just equip the crew with Starfleet-issue wands? Remember that Khan was the product of centuries-old medicine and science. Why can his blood cure people that 300 more years of medical advances cannot?

I would draw the line at people making mountains out of molehills, but the amazing, and wholly practical, Genesis Device has already ignored that line.

It's funny because as a friend and I were nitpicking afterward, he asks me, "So now they can just cure anybody of death that they want to?" And he's just like a moderate Star Trek fan.

It was me. ME! The hardcore Trek nerd who had to explain how many times before people had been resurrected in the past and I said, "Well, they had the whole Genesis device thing and we all accepted that."

And I laughed at his response which was, "Well, I never accepted it." It's true. A lot of that stuff is silly. We kinda came to an agreement that you just have to let a lot of it slide and move on, but that doesn't mean that you can't at least point it out when it happens as being somewhat odd. The Genesis device and Spock's Katra thing is exceptionally ridiculous. Magic blood has nothing on it.

But it does establish a stronger precedence for what was one of Trek's particular dramatic weaknesses: main characters just don't really seem to die and stay dead.

 

[Amaris]

Look what happened when Spock died! I'm surprised there wasn't a nerd revolt.

"Sandra, it's everywhere. From New York to Los Angeles, all along the streets it's quiet now, too quiet. The silence belies the mayhem and atrocity that was foisted upon our fair nation hours ago, when pocket protectors and homemade Vulcan ears littered the thoroughfares upon which commerce and conscience ply their daily ministrations. It is a sad day, a terrible day, a day of justice, and I, for one, welcome our new nerd overlords."

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

it would have been a great one if they had dropped Khan and made him either just another Starfleet officer or even just some other augment. They could have even alluded to Khan himself as an homage.

The only problem I can see with using Khan is that it's kind of downplaying his evil from the days of the Eugenics Wars. It's like they expect us to forget how many people Khan killed back then, how he and his Augments tried to take over the planet and exterminate everyone who wasn't an Augment.

Sure, Khan wants revenge now - and of course he explained why - but that shouldn't make what Khan has already done, or subsequently does, RIGHT. It's almost like Khan's being made out to be the hero. Obviously he's not. In truth he's no better than Hitler or Stalin or Pol Pot or any of their ilk. Much worse, evillically speaking, than Admiral Marcus.

Like I said: I find it to be poetic justice that Khan's being forced to work for Starfleet (even if it is a rogue faction thereof). If there's an explanation as to why Khan doesn't deserve everything he gets, I'd love to hear it...

 

[sj4iy]

Then were do you draw the line? Shall we just equip the crew with Starfleet-issue wands? Remember that Khan was the product of centuries-old medicine and science. Why can his blood cure people that 300 more years of medical advances cannot?

I would draw the line at people making mountains out of molehills, but the amazing, and wholly practical, Genesis Device has already ignored that line.

It's funny because as a friend and I were nitpicking afterward, he asks me, "So now they can just cure anybody of death that they want to?" And he's just like a moderate Star Trek fan.

It was me. ME! The hardcore Trek nerd who had to explain how many times before people had been resurrected in the past and I said, "Well, they had the whole Genesis device thing and we all accepted that."

And I laughed at his response which was, "Well, I never accepted it." It's true. A lot of that stuff is silly. We kinda came to an agreement that you just have to let a lot of it slide and move on, but that doesn't mean that you can't at least point it out when it happens as being somewhat odd. The Genesis device and Spock's Katra thing is exceptionally ridiculous. Magic blood has nothing on it.

But it does establish a stronger precedence for what was one of Trek's particular dramatic weaknesses: main characters just don't really seem to die and stay dead.

It started with Sherlock Holmes and nothing was ever the same again. Anyway, I didn't think that Khan's blood could save everyone. McCoy used a technique that is actually used TODAY, involving freezing someone who is on the verge of death to preserve as much brain function as possible in order to treat the problem (read: people who have drowned or more recently, a baby who didn't breathe for the first 30 minutes of her life). If Kirk's brain tissue had not died yet, then McCoy's solution was very plausible. He made a serum from Khan's blood that detoxified Kirk's cells. However, had Kirk been brain-dead, even Khan's blood would not have saved him.

 

[Ryan8bit]

The only problem I can see with using Khan is that it's kind of downplaying his evil from the days of the Eugenics Wars. It's like they expect us to forget how many people Khan killed back then, how he and his Augments tried to take over the planet and exterminate everyone who wasn't an Augment.

How many people did Khan kill back then? And was he really trying to take over the planet? Here's a little tidbit:

SCOTT: There were no massacres under his rule.
SPOCK: And as little freedom.
MCCOY: No wars until he was attacked.

While he obviously was not inherently good, I don't think evil is really an appropriate descriptor just from what little we know from Space Seed.

Simply because he's misguided doesn't mean that he deserves a life of servitude based on coercion without due process.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

I don't think evil is really an appropriate descriptor just from what little we know from Space Seed

I think it's an entirely appropriate word to use. Khan was a dictator, pure and simple. Even if there were no massacres under his actual rule, I'm sure there were quite a lot of them leading up to it...

 

[Captrek]

Then were do you draw the line? Shall we just equip the crew with Starfleet-issue wands? Remember that Khan was the product of centuries-old medicine and science. Why can his blood cure people that 300 more years of medical advances cannot?

I would draw the line at people making mountains out of molehills, but the amazing, and wholly practical, Genesis Device has already ignored that line.

In all seriousness, I draw the line where something stops making a modicum of sense. Genetically altered blood is plausible. Hell, we can do it now. A transportation device that can disassemble our atoms and reassemble them thousands of miles away in mere seconds? With no after-effects? Not really plausible, but you seem to accept it, otherwise that is where you would have drawn the line. Why is it you cannot accept that highly specialized, top secret scientific genetic research wouldn't be available to the general public, even a few centuries later? Who knows? Maybe the records were lost in a war? Could be? Maybe?

In this movie, Khan's blood is genetically designed to heal necrotic tissue. I would imagine it can also do a fair bit of damage control on an already weakened system. Really, there's no stretch to this.

The transporter and warp drive have been an established part of Star Trek's foundation since the very first pilot. They are not only common fixtures of science fiction in general, they are required to tell Star Trek stories, and if you find them to be so implausible, then perhaps you should reconsider your recreational entertainment.

Khan's blood, like the Genesis Device or Red Matter, brings in a whole new level of implausibility that doesn't make sense within the framework of the franchise. And it isn't that his blood contains anti-necrotic substances that I find implausible. It's that scientists in the 1960s figured out how to do this, kept it to themselves for the next 30 years until Khan rose to power, and all the while never thought about becoming heroes of humanity for releasing a genuine panacea.

The frustration with the magic blood relates to the deus ex machina manner in which it is introduced.

Implausible tech can easily be accepted when it is part of the fabric of the story from the outset. Dei ex machinae can be accepted when they're plausible. It's the combination that makes it feel like a cheat.

Imagine that Star Trek debuts in 1966 with landing parties using shuttles to get around. As the sixth episode approaches a suspenseful climax, the landing party is surrounded by threats and all hope seems lost. Then Scotty beams them to safety with a transporter that hasn't previously been mentioned.

That's what the magic blood does.

 

[SalvorHardin]

^I haven't seen the movie yet but it is my understanding that the blood cure hardly comes out of nowhere.
Isn't it introduced to the story from the very start of the movie with the little girl and later in some kind of tribble experiment? Or am I wrong?

 

[Therin of Andor]

Certainly if they bring Cumberbatch back everyone will know that they're doing another Khan flick.

Unless it's a Mudd's Planet or Exo III android duplicate!

Gaila is dead.

Not necessarily.

We never hear what ship Gaila is assigned to. Just that she grins at Uhura and is ecstatic at her posting.

In the bonus features of the DVD, Kirk approaches a different Orion crewmember, mistaking her for Gaila. This suggests that Kirk knows - from the crew manifest(?) - that Gaila is assigned to the Enterprise.

It became an insult to genuine Trekkies and to Messrs. Meyer, Shatner, Nimoy, etc who put so much hard work and passion into a 30 year old film that really saved the franchise a long time ago.

This "genuine Trekkie" wasn't insulted. Or am I not "genuine" after all?

why did Carol Marcus have a (dodgy) English accent when her father had a North American one?

I have twin cousins who went to England in the early 80s for two years, on a working holiday. They both came back with dodgy English accents. One lost hers very quickly upon return to Australia; the other has chosen to maintain her accent, even decades later.

 

[Dick Whitman]

I am surprised by Orci's comment. If John Harrison was not Khan what would be the motivation be for everything he does in the movie? He does it to free his people and for revenge for being used.

 

[PsychoPere]

^I haven't seen the movie yet but it is my understanding that the blood cure hardly comes out of nowhere.
Isn't it introduced to the story from the very start of the movie with the little girl and later in some kind of tribble experiment? Or am I wrong?

You are not wrong; in fact, you are very right. The "magic blood" most certainly does not come out of nowhere, and it was appropriately built up in the film prior to its use on Kirk.

 

[Greylock Crescent]

One could argue that the magic blood was built up enough that audience members ought to have known about Kirk's "resurrection" long before the characters realized they could do it. In fact, that's my only criticism (and it's very, very minor) about the magic blood: It seemed a tad bit too obvious and telegraphed.

 

[Hartzilla2007]

I am surprised by Orci's comment. If John Harrison was not Khan what would be the motivation be for everything he does in the movie? He does it to free his people and for revenge for being used.

Plus how the hell were they going to explain Harrison's one man rampage against a small Klingon army where he kills most of them and blows up 3 ships by himself and then takes a beating from Kirk without being fazed or even visible injured, not to mention later taking multiple stun blasts at point blank range without drooping.

^I haven't seen the movie yet but it is my understanding that the blood cure hardly comes out of nowhere.
Isn't it introduced to the story from the very start of the movie with the little girl and later in some kind of tribble experiment? Or am I wrong?

You are not wrong; in fact, you are very right. The "magic blood" most certainly does not come out of nowhere, and it was appropriately built up in the film prior to its use on Kirk.

Plus they established that Kirk still had brain activity and as such was just mostly dead.

 

[PsychoPere]

One could argue that the magic blood was built up enough that audience members ought to have known about Kirk's "resurrection" long before the characters realized they could do it. In fact, that's my only criticism (and it's very, very minor) about the magic blood: It seemed a tad bit too obvious and telegraphed.

Yeah, I think that's a fair criticism. Like you, though, it doesn't bother me enough to care about it beyond an acknowledgement.

I am surprised by Orci's comment. If John Harrison was not Khan what would be the motivation be for everything he does in the movie? He does it to free his people and for revenge for being used.

Plus how the hell were they going to explain Harrison's one man rampage against a small Klingon army where he kills most of them and blows up 3 ships by himself and then takes a beating from Kirk without being fazed or even visible injured, not to mention later taking multiple stun blasts at point blank range without drooping.

Some of these things that might seem odd now, having seen the finished film and comparing it to the idea of John Harrison not being Khan originally, could simply be explained by script rewrites that occurred after the decision was made to have Harrison be Khan. Perhaps originally Harrison wasn't going to be quite so successful entirely on his own (perhaps he would have had accomplices). Perhaps he was always intended to be a genetically engineered individual, and the decision to turn him into Khan was a matter of expediency - if your antagonist is going to be genetically engineered, why not simply make him Trek's most famous character with such a background? And so on.

 

[Dick Whitman]

I think it was the other way around. The original plan was for him was always to be Khan. Than perhaps later they considering making him someone else. But realized they would have had to change his character role in the plot completely.

The idea of first creating a new villain who is genetically enhanced that is not Khan is hard to believe. They were taking about showing the Botany Bay in space at the end of the first film. The idea of him being their villain in the sequel was there all along.

It's more clear now their direction with Trek is retelling the old stories with their own "twist". In someways it's not that dissimilar to other more traditional re-imaginings. Every Superman incarnation has its on Lex Luthor story, etc. The difference here is they are using the idea of history being altered to explain why they have a different Khan story than the original one.

The problem with this approach is that Khan's signifance is too dependent on being aware of what happened in the original. In terms of his backstory and what a threat he had been. Which is great for fans I am not sure about anyone else.

 

[DarKush]

I think it was the other way around. The original plan was for him was always to be Khan. Than perhaps later they considering making him someone else. But realized they would have had to change his character role in the plot completely.

The idea of first creating a new villain who is genetically enhanced that is not Khan is hard to believe. They were taking about showing the Botany Bay in space at the end of the first film. The idea of him being their villain in the sequel was there all along.

It's more clear now their direction with Trek is retelling the old stories with their own "twist". In someways it's not that dissimilar to other more traditional re-imaginings. Every Superman incarnation has its on Lex Luthor story, etc. The difference here is they are using the idea of history being altered to explain why they have a different Khan story than the original one.

The problem with this approach is that Khan's signifance is too dependent on being aware of what happened in the original. In terms of his backstory and what a threat he had been. Which is great for fans I am not sure about anyone else.

I really liked your last sentence because I felt that was one of the major problems I have with Into Darkness. I think they are squandering the freedom the alternate reality gives them to create original stories that can appeal to both new and old fans. When you tweak an old show or movie you run the risk of an unfavorable comparison and losing old fans while it means little to nothing for new fans. Despite the bad reviews for the new Trek video game, how many of us would really have had a problem if Into Darkness had been about the Gorn, or the Tholians for that matter? I wish they had explored either previously underdeveloped adversaries or put a little brain power into it and come up with original adversaries.

For me, the twist Into Darkness really didn't sit well with me. But I have to wonder if the casual fan even cared about that twist. If anything it might be a name or word they've heard before and perhaps know that some acclaim might be associated to it, but I don't know if that revelation would really mean much without having a foreknowledge of its importance in the prime Trek universe.

I have no doubt that Orci and Kurtzman are Trek fans, but I think their inner fanboys have gotten the better of them. Throwing in the random reference here and there is fine with me, but when you just do a weak imitation of something that is seen as iconic-perhaps as an homage-it runs the risk of coming off as corny or a mockery.

 

[JarodRussell]

I'm still wondering why could John Harrison not simply be John Harrison? Genetically engineered along with a couple of others by a secret Starfleet faction, with magic blood. Where would the difference to the film be?

I have no doubt that Orci and Kurtzman are Trek fans, but I think their inner fanboys have gotten the better of them. Throwing in the random reference here and there is fine with me, but when you just do a weak imitation of something that is seen as iconic-perhaps as an homage-it runs the risk of coming off as corny or a mockery.

Having seen Prometheus, I'd say it's because of Lindelof.

 

[Gepard]

I'm still wondering why could John Harrison not simply be John Harrison? Genetically engineered along with a couple of others by a secret Starfleet faction, with magic blood. Where would the difference to the film be?

One thought that occurs - and if this was the intention, the writers could have fleshed it out more – was by using Khan they strengthened the theme of family. He's 300 years displaced out of his own time and though he may be a tyrant and a murderer, his crew of 72 is all he has left of his old life. It's culture shock times a million so of course he's going to go on a roaring rampage of revenge to reunite with his crew. Its everything Kirk goes through earlier in the film writ large; only in Kirk's case he's ethical enough to not start a slaughter once he gets what he wants whereas Khan keeps on killing.

 

[Dick Whitman]

If he had just been John Harrison of Starfleet what would his motivations have been? In the film its to get revenge on Starfleet and Marcus. But most of all to free his people from Cryo-Sleep. Just Starfleet secret agent who crosses the line? How would that make him any different than Marcus?

In theory it could have been written to be a new character but the whole story would have been completely different. The whole plot is build on it being Khan.

 

[DarKush]

^
I was thinking that it could be John Harrison with the same motivation. I mean, since it is the alternate universe, what if it had been Harrison who had been awoken instead of Khan? If it had gone that route they could have their Khan reference, and a character with some Khan aspects-in terms of being an Augment-and without setting themselves up for comparisons and judgments to the original Khan.

Further if it had been just John Harrison it might have hopefully not had them ape some of the pivotal TWOK scenes as much.

The only issue I have with my scenario though is that I remember that in Space Seed they said that Khan's cryo-tube was activated first. Perhaps there was some way I'm sure to get around that or to ignore it. I mean, it is the alternate reality after all.

Though I wouldn't mind going another route as well. I mean, there was enough of an interesting story there with Section 31 and a rogue admiral wanting to start a war with the Klingons that you didn't need to go the Harrison-Khan route, or maybe make Harrison a Klingon sleeper agent instead of Khan or an augmented human.