My top three villains:
Chang
Soran
The Borg (not just the queen)
Chang
Soran
The Borg (not just the queen)
Best Villains?
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All fair points, indeed. I was thinking about both Khans from a storytelling standpoint. Regardless of what the writers decided to change and omit in TWOK, they made sure to bring the audience along for the ride.
I like Kruge also; he's just a fun villain. Soran, on the other hand, just seemed so full of potential, but like so many other aspects of Generations, fell flat in the end. I would have loved to see the early parts of the movie setting him up as well, rather than watching Data push Crusher into the water.
For films, my top 10:
1. Khan Prime
2. Chang and conspirators
3. Borg Queen
4. Nero
5. Soran
6. Shinzon
7. Khan (alternate)
8. Kruge
9. Ru'afo
10. Sybok
I can't say all of these were listed in terms of the ones I liked the most, but partly some for their effectiveness. But not completely for effectiveness because if I rated it solely on that the Borg Queen would be #1 and Nero would be #2.
1. Khan Prime
2. Chang and conspirators
3. Borg Queen
4. Nero
5. Soran
6. Shinzon
7. Khan (alternate)
8. Kruge
9. Ru'afo
10. Sybok
I can't say all of these were listed in terms of the ones I liked the most, but partly some for their effectiveness. But not completely for effectiveness because if I rated it solely on that the Borg Queen would be #1 and Nero would be #2.
Admiral: "And how many Jean Luc before it becomes right? A million, a billion, a trillion?"
My votes would go to Khan and the Borg Queen.
Her thinking is fallacious nonsense. Don't even bother.
I think Shinzon would have been better if he was trying to blow up Romulus as revenge for their mistreatment of him and the Remans, with the Enterprise having to fight with Shinzon to save the home world of one the Federation's oldest enemies. That is so much better then Shinzon's underdeveloped BS motives for wanting to destroy Earth.
I didn't mind Shinzon too much and I'm surprised at how strenuous the objections are to him. That film was a bit too much of a "Kahn/Sela" redux for me mind you but it's reasonable fare overall .
In terms of his motivations, he's an utterly brutal man that wants and needs to get Picard at all costs and is willing to create an apocalyptic trail of destruction to seize him. But even beyond the medicine of it, the idea that there is a counterpart or "the original" of him out there must both unnerve and disturb a man who craves uncontested power.
The idea of Shinzon needing to destroy the Federation or earth as an end in of itself is just not necessary. But again, he's a crude guy and his urge to give himself and the empire he now controls uncontested supremacy in that part of the galaxy as over-compensation for so many years toiling powerlessly at the bottom rung of Romulan society, is fairly plausible I would think.
In terms of his motivations, he's an utterly brutal man that wants and needs to get Picard at all costs and is willing to create an apocalyptic trail of destruction to seize him. But even beyond the medicine of it, the idea that there is a counterpart or "the original" of him out there must both unnerve and disturb a man who craves uncontested power.
The idea of Shinzon needing to destroy the Federation or earth as an end in of itself is just not necessary. But again, he's a crude guy and his urge to give himself and the empire he now controls uncontested supremacy in that part of the galaxy as over-compensation for so many years toiling powerlessly at the bottom rung of Romulan society, is fairly plausible I would think.
Why Shinzon want revenge on Picard anyway, what did Picard do to Shinzon that warrants any of this? The Romulans are the ones who ruined his life, why wouldn't he want revenge on them instead? Shinzon wanting revenge on the Romulans is more logically and makes for a more unique tale, rather then another the Earth is going to be destroyed by mad man. Shinzon is more like a bad plot device then a character in that film. Shinzon being consumed by a need for revenge on the people who wronged at the cost of his own humanity, is far better then stereotypical "evil power mad villain who twirls his mustache and kicks puppies for no reason". They may as well made Shinzon some evil hardliner Romulan commander, rather then Picard's clone, if that is all there is too him. I could image an evil version of Picard wanting revenge on people who wronged him, we saw this in First Contact, but an evil Picard as a steroyopical villain, no, that doesn't work.
Shinzon is would be like some guy who had his life utterly ruined by another guy, but instead of putting revenge on him, he chooses to get revenge on some other random guy who had nothing to do with his misfortunes. Not only does it not make sense, its just not interesting, it makes Shinzon seem like a rather weak villain.
I understood why Khan hated Kirk, with Shinzon, I have no clue why he hates Picard, he just does, because the script says so.
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To restate what I said in my earlier post, Shinzon needs Picard's DNA first off to stabilise himself. He therefore urgently needs Picard captured to stay in power and arrest the rapid collapse of his health.
But the idea that "an original" version of himself is out there with an opposing morality and a record of achievement whilst he screwed around getting whipped in the mines would also unnerve a powerful megalomaniac such as he. For Shinzon, he can't quite tear himself away from the idea that Picard is a perfected version of himself whilst he languishes around with severe health problems. So there's a huge pathos there. Getting rid of Picard, means Shinzon's establishes his uniqueness. I haven't a problem with it, it's all strong stuff.
Shinzon going after Romulus is just underwhelming. The Romulans are very unsympathetic as it is; you'd struggle to root for such a duplicitous, scheming mob like that.
What I thought interesting about what we see with Shinzon, is that he possesses certain shades of Hitler and Napoleon and he represents the pathos subject peoples can have towards their conquerors. Hitler is a guy who spent time as a vagrant and clearly held grudges against the society he lived in but came to dominate that society and significant parts of the earth. Napoleon was born to a family of committed Corsican nationalists but went on to win total power in imperial France. So I kind of enjoyed that touch where we see subject peoples get granted places in that society through acts of valor and whatnot. It shows an historical awareness and alot of subject peoples who are granted these type of privileges in this way nevertheless did retain conflicting attitudes towards their new peers. And we see that in this film too.
For me, the problem with Shinzon, is that it's just tough to cast for a "young Picard" and Hardy is adequate rather than exceptional in that role although he is an exceptional actor generally. I'm not sure when I'm looking at him in this though that I see a "young Picard". But I'm pleased with Shinzon's background and whilst they could tighten up on his motivations, I've no problem with the plausibility of his basic attitudes.
That is not nearly as compelling as Khan and Kirk's dynamic. Really the evil twin/dark reflection version of the hero is a cliche in of itself, so Shinzon needed more then that to be compelling.
In First contact Picard was so obsessed with revenge against those who wronged him, he nearly went over the brink. Imagine if Shinzon was like the Picard from First Contact, who goes beyond the brink and never looks back, so obessed with revenge against those who wronged him, he lost all perspective and humaniity. Instead he is some random bad guy who want to blow up Earth because he's "tots evil, lulz!" He is not a dark reflection of Picard, he is bargain bin James Bond villain.
And going after Earth is cliche, at least going after Romulas is different, how many different Star Trek villains have attacked Earth. And unless every Romulan is evil, I think there are real stakes with Shinzon trying to destroy Romulus, Shinzon would kill millions of innocents to npunish the guilty. If Picard stopped Shinzon from destorying Romulus, then maybe that would be the foundation of a new peace treaty between the Romulans and the Federation. In Thor, Loki tried to destroy all the Frost Giants and that worked as a climax to the movie, I liked Loki way more then Shinzon.
None of that explains why he wanted to destroy Earth and the Federation, what did the Federation do to him to earn this random hatred he is heaping on them for no reason, while he is helping the people who ruined his life. There are hints of interesting villain here, but the parts of the parts don't equal the whole. He hates the Federation and wants to destroy them, because he is a stereotypical bad guy, not because of any logical reason.
You're applying logic to a psychopath? That's what makes them crazy. What year did motivation become the be-all and end-all of villainy in cinema? In our history and right now, people do bad things for no real reason, people don't act logically or think logically very often in real life, it's allowed to be that way in fiction as well.
Beyond that, Shinzon's hatred of Romulans and revenge on them is fulfilled. There is much more satisfaction in ruling over those who caused you hardships and returning the favour than in simply killing them. And because of how he was treated by the big bully Romulans growing up, his first action when taking over them is to make sure he's never subjugated like that again by going after the next potential bully, the Federation. Whether we find that logical or not is irrelevant, that's how crazy Shinzon thinks.
1) Picard's encounter with his evil double could easily match Kahn's confrontation with Kirk if both had writers with the same touch. Many great films are based on what might otherwise be construed as "cliché". What they really are, are universal themes that have bubbled up in the human imagination since time began and will continue to do so until the end of time.
2) In First Contact, Picard runs around like Rambo and starts going bananas. That's the writers running out of ideas on what new they can do with Picard. That's the part of that film that left me indifferent.
3) Shinzon going after the Romulans. Who cares? One as bad as the other. Maybe they could do something bleak and nichey with it, I dunno.
4) I did say I wished they tightened up on Shinzon's motivations. They are relying on Shinzon's sinister "Emperor Palpatine" look rather than attending to developing his character properly this late in the film. But Hitler wanted to conquer, so does Shinzon. It's not that implausible for such a character.
But that's why he is a lame, he is really poor "dark reflection" of Picard, when he is just a dime store James Bond villain who has no motive beyond "I'm tots evil guys, lulz!" Picard's dark reflection should be a dark reflection of Picard's worst aspects which we saw in First Contact, this guy just some random A-hole, not a true dark reflection of Picard He's a dime store Lex Luthor, I have seen several better evil twin villains in comic books.
How is serving the interests of the Romulan military, guys who enslaved him in first place, is getting revenge on them. Yes helping them is getting revenge on them, that makes sense.
Shinzon should not be the Joker, the movie set him up to hate the Romulans and yet he wants to destroy the Federation, why? Because the script says so, if you want me buy him as a compelling villain , give his motives a set up with a pay off, not set up that goes no where, because the writers decided to play bait and switch with the pay off and the pay off seems lame and cliche
Also why is the Federation the next "potential bully" what about the Klingons, they are an Empire, the Federation seems far less war like then most of the Alpha Quadrant powers, why didn't Shinzon go after the expansionist empire over the cabal of hippies and formal bureaucrats that make up the Federation. Shinzon went after Earth, because we live on Earth and thus are supposed to care if he destroys or not, not because a logical extension of the plot. This is very sloppy writing.
This my problem with the character, he is a generic evil mad man who's actions have no build up and no pay off, he is such a dime store bad guy and does not come across as a true dark reflection of Picard.
Well then Shinzon should have been a dark reflection of Picard's darker aspects, not some random A hole who wants to destroy Earth for the Evulz.
I think First Contact had more pathos then Nemesis, most the critics and the audiences seemed to agree. I think linking some of these films thematically would have better then Shinzon being some random bad guy who comes out of no where and wants to destory the world, for no particular reason.
I think a good screen writer could have made me care about Shinzon destroying Romlus, anything would have better then a cliched baddie who wants to destroy Earth, for no real reason.
I did not care about Shinzon's plan to destroy the Earth, because it came out of nowhere, it had no build up and didn't feel natural, it felt tacked on.
That's a pretty big oversimplification of Hitler and WWII in general, WWII didn't just happen because Hitler was bored one day and decided to take over the world, there was a lot of stuff with the fall out of WWI that lead to the rise of the Nazi party and WWII. If Shinzon was true Hitler like bad guy, I might have found him compelling, but no, he's a dime store baddie.
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1) Shinzon isn't a random character. Picard is troubled by him, Shinzon, in his turn, is thrown by Picard.
2) FC is a good action romp and there is some pathos there when Picard has his flashbacks and when he goes bananas. I like the planet side confrontation between the myth of the hero and the reality of the man. Picard running about the place like Rambo and going bonkers is fun but hokey. Picard's unique traits are his diplomatic abilities and brinkmanship and when they just flip him into Rambo that's a step back in terms of character development in an effort to win some easy points points with the audience. The Queen drooling over Picard and sexually molesting Data, who looks like an embarrassed schoolboy is, again fun, but hokey.
3) I care about Shinzon's desire to snatch Picard. The invincibility of his ship, means he has the ability to achieve this end and the power of his ship means that he is a guy that just cannot be contained and that he must be stopped now. The idea that Shinzon wants to explicitly destroy the Federation or earth is not something that featured prominently with me.
4) I don't think anyone gives a rats ass about Shinzon attacking Romulus.
5) 'Oversimplification', lol. My brief reference to Hitler is both salient and more than adequate for our purposes here. But if Hitler doesn't work as an example, then history is awash with megalomaniacal tyrants that lusted for conquest to overcome personal shortcomings. Shinzon falls within that spectrum.
Certainly people who are guffawing at Shinzon's plausibility then think with a thoughtful pose that the sultry sexual antics of the Borg Queen is an example of a coherent characterisation, I feel need to reflect a little bit more.
General Chang will always be my favorite with the Borg in second place and Kruge in third. After that I would say Khan (original), though I never liked him as much as most people, and then Khan (reboot), though, while engaging, his whole story just doesn't make much sense (enough so, that I didn't vote for him). I did also vote for Voyage Home because I love a good Trek story where the villain isn't a villain at all (but just a very difficult problem), but I can't really rank that one since it's not a villain at all.
All the other villains pretty much ranged from bad to terrible to unwatchable.
All the other villains pretty much ranged from bad to terrible to unwatchable.
I never got why people think Khan is a good villain. The themes of the movie are great (blindness and stupidity of revenge, getting older, letting go etc etc), but the villain himself was a complete dumbo (yes, he was entertaining and Montalban was awesome. I recognise that). The baddies from STVI were intelligent and discreet and well-read and subtle; they got my vote. That's a compelling antoagonist / group of antagonists, not some bleached blonde moron who blames a guy for his own fuck-ups. If he was meant to be dumb, it would be much better, but also less dramatic. He's just so fucking stupid. Seriously, Khan, you got yourself stranded on that planet due to sheer stupidity, but if you want to place the blame on someone else, blame the Federation, not the man who refused to let you steal his ship (the sheer audacity! 
). Crikey. Also, while we're at it, there is such a thing as quitting while you're ahead, but I guess your "superior intelligence" got in the way of logic. 
Idiot.
On a halfway serious note, I do so love these threads that give me an opportunity to rant about Khan! I bet all y'all missed my incoherent monologues.
Seriouly, though: TWoK is an awesome, kickass action-scifi movie with great underlying themes that draw the viewer in, as well as brilliant characterisation and good acting, not to mention an iconic score. The cinematography is really good, the pacing is great, and it is intelligently made. No wonder it's the most popular of all the movies, even though it's not my personal favourite. If only the villain weren't so stupid.
). Crikey. Also, while we're at it, there is such a thing as quitting while you're ahead, but I guess your "superior intelligence" got in the way of logic. Idiot. On a halfway serious note, I do so love these threads that give me an opportunity to rant about Khan! I bet all y'all missed my incoherent monologues.
Seriouly, though: TWoK is an awesome, kickass action-scifi movie with great underlying themes that draw the viewer in, as well as brilliant characterisation and good acting, not to mention an iconic score. The cinematography is really good, the pacing is great, and it is intelligently made. No wonder it's the most popular of all the movies, even though it's not my personal favourite. If only the villain weren't so stupid.
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