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Before Dishonor -- comments & opinions ****SPOILERS*****

Re: Before Dishonor -- comments & opinions ****SPOILERS****

LightningStorm said:

For the epic scale of events that occurred in this novel, I think this (along with every other insanely huge event that occurs in large fictional universes) suffered from believability because how is it that only the Enterprise and the Excalibur were the only two ships we heard of or saw. And don't give me that "it's a big galaxy" mess. This was big enough that literally every ship that is armed should have been called directly to Earth. Voyager? Defiant? Where were you? I also found myself asking where the hell were the Klingons? They're our allies and are all about a good honorable battle? Hell I'd even venture to ask where were the Romulans, Breen, and any other big power in the quadrants? With the Borg being that "big a threat" no race who knows the Borg would begin to think they'd stop at Earth and would immediately go to help save Earth if not for the purpose of saving Earth but for saving their own planet that would be next.

In fairness, while there is much to complain about regarding this book, the depiction of Starfleet's reaction to the threat (in terms of ship deployments) was fairly reasonable. Remember that with things in space, there's always a time-distance problem, i.e. it takes X days to travel X distance. Accordingly, there's no requirement to insert gratuitous cameos of the Defiant, Voyager, Da Vinci, Titan, or any other regularly featured ship as it's quite likely they were simply too far away to get there until after the events of the novel had run their course. As for the other Alpha Quadrant powers, in addition to the time-distance problem, they would also have their own legitimate concerns, i.e. "if we send out fleet to defend the Federation, what if we're attacked by another Borg ship", etc. As for not hearing or seeing other ships, we heard of a total of four Federation ships by name ( Enterprise, Excalibur, Nautilus, Freedom) that were involved in responding to the threat, together with dozens of unnamed Starfleet ships that were also involved in the engagements described.


donners22 said:
That's like complaining a Tarantino film is violent or has swearing! For better or worse, that is the style of PAD's novels. Most times it comes off fairly well, sometimes very well, sometimes poorly. I suppose in a poorer novel, the comic book aspect is an aggravating factor, but alone it is not really a reason for criticism - you should know what to expect going in.

Maybe some of us don't think any Trek novel should read like a comic book. If I wanted a comic book plot, I'd read one of the many Trek comic books published over the years (there are many available). A novel should read like a novel.


Also, in reference to the last few posts, please put an additional spoiler warning if you're going to reference definitive events in a different book than the one mentioned in the thread heading. Not all of us have read the A Time To... series, and the Admiral Ross thing was a major giveaway. :mad:
 
Re: Before Dishonor -- comments & opinions ****SPOILERS****

Section 31 said:
Also, in reference to the last few posts, please put an additional spoiler warning if you're going to reference definitive events in a different book than the one mentioned in the thread heading. Not all of us have read the A Time To... series, and the Admiral Ross thing was a major giveaway. :mad:

Quite right, and I apologize for that. I'm going to go back and add an additional spoiler warning to my post. Once again, my apologies; the books were so old that I had assumed anyone reading Before Dishonor would have read them, but clearly that was unreasonable.
 
Re: Before Dishonor -- comments & opinions ****SPOILERS****

Christopher said:
wizkid said:
I think you need to reread the last two books. One of the Admirals was tied directly to Section 31. At least he let them come in and get the President, #1 and #2 guys to go off and get the axe.... Doesn’t sound like a “crime ring” to me. Sounds like the Dastrom (sp?) Institute all over it with Federation backing.

Sorry, wrong. You're getting the relationship backward there. Section 31 didn't answer to Admiral Ross -- he answered to them. They had him in their pocket. If the Mafia has corrupted an admiral in the US Navy, that doesn't make the Mafia a state-sponsored institution.

Also, the Federation is not a military dictatorship. Starfleet does not run it. Whether he had Section 31 backing or not, Ross had absolutely no legal right to unseat the democratically elected leader of the Federation. What Ross did was to stage a military coup, to subvert the constitutional process. Right or wrong, he committed a crime, and he got help from the career criminals of Section 31 in pulling it off. Help he probably didn't want, but was forced to accept because of S31's power over him.

Spoiler - A Time to Series...

Is the relationship backward? While your example cannot be argued with, I think Section 31 goes a little further than the mafia or homegrown terrorists. No way they have the technology they do just from being a group of bad guys in a Federation where money means nothing. Did the rest of the Admirals in the room suspect anything? Don’t know but you have to imagine they would. Also, when Zife and Az are never heard from or spotted again, how will that play out?

I think Section 31 and some of the Admirals and higher ups use each other, a lot, by what was presented in the A Time to Series...
 
Re: Before Dishonor -- comments & opinions ****SPOILERS****

You're still completely missing the point. It's not an issue of whether people know about S31 or occasionally avail themselves of its services in desperate times. S31 is not answerable to the government. It is not answerable to Starfleet. It is not answerable to anyone, because it doesn't legally exist. It is outside the law by its very nature.

I mean, my gods, they
ASSASSINATED THE BLOOMIN' PRESIDENT OF THE FEDERATION!!!!!!
How can that not be a crime? How can their status as a criminal organization be in the least bit of doubt after that?
 
Re: Before Dishonor -- comments & opinions ****SPOILERS****

Christopher said:
You're still completely missing the point. It's not an issue of whether people know about S31 or occasionally avail themselves of its services in desperate times. S31 is not answerable to the government. It is not answerable to Starfleet. It is not answerable to anyone, because it doesn't legally exist. It is outside the law by its very nature.

I mean, my gods, they
ASSASSINATED THE BLOOMIN' PRESIDENT OF THE FEDERATION!!!!!!
How can that not be a crime? How can their status as a criminal organization be in the least bit of doubt after that?

Or, for that matter, their status as a rogue agency?
 
Re: Before Dishonor -- comments & opinions ****SPOILERS****

^ Just a quick note -- the spoiler above was actually depicted in A Time to Heal.
 
Re: Before Dishonor -- comments & opinions ****SPOILERS****

^^Sorry, fixed. It's just that my mind has trouble reconciling the word "Heal" with a book where so much killing takes place... ;)
 
Re: Before Dishonor -- comments & opinions ****SPOILERS****

Well, having read "Q & A" and "Before Dishonor" back to back this week. (which was a big feat for me, two books in six days) I would agree with most of the criticisms and praise for the book.

I don't really have anything to add the discussion. Something that made me laugh, was where Grim Vargo says to Seven that he's "never watched a vid of Voyager." And, of course Calhoun was great.

Of the three books it wasn't the tha best, "Q & A," and it wasn't the worst, "Resistance."

ncc71877 :klingon:
 
Re: Before Dishonor -- comments & opinions ****SPOILERS****

I guess they are looked at the same as the moron Admiral that was trying to remove the Bakuu (sp?) off their planet for the regeneration effect. It was wrong, Data flipped out, and SF pursued knowlingly.

I don't question Section 31's legality, but I do question their tie to SF and let's face it, if SF wanted them gone, they would try much harder. So they are left out there to do the dirty work that no one wants to do.
 
Re: Before Dishonor -- comments & opinions ****SPOILERS****

wizkid said:
I guess they are looked at the same as the moron Admiral that was trying to remove the Bakuu (sp?) off their planet for the regeneration effect. It was wrong, Data flipped out, and SF pursued knowlingly.

I don't question Section 31's legality,

I do. The only document they've ever cited to justify their existence is Article 14, Section 31 of the United Earth Starfleet Charter -- a charter whose organization ceased to exist when the United Earth Starfleet was abolished and replaced by the Federation Starfleet. It's like if an organization today tried to justify its existence by pointing to the Mayflower Compact.

but I do question their tie to SF and let's face it, if SF wanted them gone, they would try much harder.

Well, it's pretty clear that someone fairly high up in Starfleet Command is engaging in obstruction of justice by blocking any real inquiries into Section 31's existence and activities. But it wouldn't take more than one or two people in Command to block anti-Thirty-One efforts, so I certainly wouldn't presume that it's accurate to presume that Starfleet is systematically, institutionally corrupt when it comes to them.

So they are left out there to do the dirty work that no one wants to do.

You mean "the illegal work that doesn't even need to be done and which usually backfires and blows up in their faces." Let's not forget that amongst Section 31's biggest sins is its utter incompetence.
 
Re: Before Dishonor -- comments & opinions ****SPOILERS****

Sci said:
Let's not forget that amongst Section 31's biggest sins is its utter incompetence.
That would be the utter incompetence that has allowed it to exist and operate in near complete secrecy and without any significant interference for over 200 years, right?
 
Re: Before Dishonor -- comments & opinions ****SPOILERS****

Great book, real roller coaster ride, and wonderful ending. Looks like Starfleet needs a new Admiral, maybe they can actually give it to someone who deserves it. Gee she got a shipload of morons home and only ticked off half the Delta Quadrant and wiped her rear end with Federation and Starfellt regs, let's make her an Admiral.

Maybe they can ,make that one captain an Admiral, you know he was in that show that the B's pretty much ignored and hated, they treated the show like the red headed step child, even thought it was the best Trek on TV, and one of the best tv shows on at its time. I think it was on a space station or something.

Yeah I danced for joy when Janeway croaked.
 
Re: Before Dishonor -- comments & opinions ****SPOILERS****

Fa-La-La-Leisner said:
Sci said:
Let's not forget that amongst Section 31's biggest sins is its utter incompetence.
That would be the utter incompetence that has allowed it to exist and operate in near complete secrecy and without any significant interference for over 200 years, right?

I was thinking more along the lines of

handing over control of space with one of the most powerful and dangerous energy sources ever encountered to the Romulans in exchange for an out-of-date list of Tal Shiar plants
. Or
thinking a criminal defense attorney was a subversive threat to UFP security and then losing their operative assigned to watch over him
. Or
losing control of the genetically engineered operative that they killed thousands of Federates to attempt to recruit
. Or
assassinating a Federation President and making no plans to account for his absence when the public eventually notices that no one knows where he and his advisors are.
. Or
funding research into a molecule that everyone knew would be impossible to stabilize and dangerous to the environment.
.

Or, if we go for the canonical examples, allowing Phlox to be abducted so as to work on a cure for the Klingon Augment virus and trying to thwart the NX-01's investigation, yet not anticipating that the Klingon general would doublecross them. Or trying to arrange for the relocation of the Bak'u by relying on the Son'a. Or trying to commit pre-emptive genocide against the Founders, leading to their inevitable refusal to surrender after the war had been effectively lost because of their desire, in the face of their extinction, to give the Federation a pyyrhic victory.

Their operations -- like most covert operations undertaken in violation of the basic rules of constitutional liberal democracy, such as Operation Ajax -- have a rather consistent of creating unintentional, unfavorable consequences for the Federation.
 
Re: Before Dishonor -- comments & opinions ****SPOILERS****

^ Sci,

I'd just like to point out that the blunder you ascribe to Section 31 in my novel A Time to Heal actually occurred in KRAD's novel Articles of the Federation.

Had it been left up to me, I would have had Zife (i.e., a perfect impostor thereof) send his condolences via subspace radio, from a months-distant world just outside the edge of UFP space, where he was engaged in diplomatic outreach efforts. In other words, something plausible but basically unverifiable.

It's not my fault KRAD made S31's plan fall apart. It was all going fine until he put his monkeys to work on it.... ;)

~ David Mack
 
Re: Before Dishonor -- comments & opinions ****SPOILERS****

Sci said:
Or, if we go for the canonical examples, allowing Phlox to be abducted so as to work on a cure for the Klingon Augment virus and trying to thwart the NX-01's investigation, yet not anticipating that the Klingon general would doublecross them. Or trying to arrange for the relocation of the Bak'u by relying on the Son'a. Or trying to commit pre-emptive genocide against the Founders, leading to their inevitable refusal to surrender after the war had been effectively lost because of their desire, in the face of their extinction, to give the Federation a pyyrhic victory.

Their operations -- like most covert operations undertaken in violation of the basic rules of constitutional liberal democracy, such as Operation Ajax -- have a rather consistent of creating unintentional, unfavorable consequences for the Federation.

Technically, the Bak'u/Son'a thing isn't a canonical example, because S31's involvement in that is not canonical, but a retcon in the books.

Otherwise, I agree. Covert organizations employing unethical methods in the name of national security tend to end up creating more threats to national security than they prevent.
 
Re: Before Dishonor -- comments & opinions ****SPOILERS****

Sci said:

I do. The only document they've ever cited to justify their existence is Article 14, Section 31 of the United Earth Starfleet Charter -- a charter whose organization ceased to exist when the United Earth Starfleet was abolished and replaced by the Federation Starfleet. It's like if an organization today tried to justify its existence by pointing to the Mayflower Compact.



I meant illegality. I agree with you on this.

Well, it's pretty clear that someone fairly high up in Starfleet Command is engaging in obstruction of justice by blocking any real inquiries into Section 31's existence and activities. But it wouldn't take more than one or two people in Command to block anti-Thirty-One efforts, so I certainly wouldn't presume that it's accurate to presume that Starfleet is systematically, institutionally corrupt when it comes to them.

I would say, many people high up in SFC.

You mean "the illegal work that doesn't even need to be done and which usually backfires and blows up in their faces." Let's not forget that amongst Section 31's biggest sins is its utter incompetence.

Agreed.
 
Re: Before Dishonor -- comments & opinions ****SPOILERS****

wizkid said:
Sci said:
Well, it's pretty clear that someone fairly high up in Starfleet Command is engaging in obstruction of justice by blocking any real inquiries into Section 31's existence and activities. But it wouldn't take more than one or two people in Command to block anti-Thirty-One efforts, so I certainly wouldn't presume that it's accurate to presume that Starfleet is systematically, institutionally corrupt when it comes to them.

I would say, many people high up in SFC.





Not necessarily. One very higly placed admirals would probably be able to stop anyone below them from looking into, or blocking the investigation in someway.
 
Re: Before Dishonor -- comments & opinions ****SPOILERS****

^ Yes. Remember that they said in one of the novels that the Chief of Starfleet Security (an Admiral) was involved in it. In that position you can block anything in efforts of national security.
 
Re: Before Dishonor -- comments & opinions ****SPOILERS****

nx1701g said:
^ Yes. Remember that they said in one of the novels that the Chief of Starfleet Security (an Admiral) was involved in it. In that position you can block anything in efforts of national security.

Well, many things, certainly, and almost anything that's internally Starfleet. But the Chief of Starfleet Security no doubt lacks the power to block non-Starfleet agency efforts -- the Federation Security Advisor's office is likely out of his purview, for instance.

But, yeah, the point remains that one or two key admirals could easily be all that Section 31 needs to obstruct investigations into their activities.
 
Re: Before Dishonor -- comments & opinions ****SPOILERS****

And Worf uses their devices but doesn't follow up? Sounds like a book waiting to be released. Worf brings down Section 31, one fist at a time...
 
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