Spoilers Batwoman season 3

Discussion in 'Science Fiction & Fantasy' started by Enterprise is Great, Oct 13, 2021.

  1. Christopher

    Christopher Writer Admiral

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    The impression I got is that Jada assumed Wayne Enterprises had hacked her company's data for business reasons. She was surprised in the final scene last week when Ryan said her interest was personal instead. I don't think it ever occurred to her that it could be about the daughter she gave up until Ryan dropped the bombshell on her. After all, she's this hugely successful billionaire, all business. She even treats her son like an employee. So she'd naturally assume the hack from another megacorporation was some kind of dirty business trick and never even consider that it could be about the daughter she's spent a quarter-century trying to forget.


    But it seems odd to gloss over that in the story, never even to raise it as an issue. The impression is that Jada just uncritically accepted Ryan's claim, and that feels out of character for someone in Jada's position. It's a narrative oversight that it wasn't at least acknowledged. Whether you can fix a plot hole after the fact is irrelevant, because that's not that hard to do. The problem is that the hole exists in the first place. It shouldn't be left up to the audience to explain these things; that's the writers' job.
     
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  2. Guy Gardener

    Guy Gardener Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    She think Ryan got a business degree.

    Thomas Wayne could be Ryan's father, but Lionel Luthor would open one hell of door to her extended cast possibilities.)

    Robert Queen?

    Vandal Sagage?

    Penguin?
     
  3. David cgc

    David cgc Admiral Premium Member

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    In the season premiere, Jada’s goon told her the hack was into her personal, private information, something she wouldn’t want the company’s cybersecurity team looking into, and specifically not information on the company. Like I said, I don’t think she thought it was her long-lost daughter looking for her, but she definitely knew someone at Wayne had figured out about her secret baby, and concluded it was for blackmail.
     
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  4. Christopher

    Christopher Writer Admiral

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    That just doesn't track, though. If she knew it had something to do with her daughter, and then she met the acting Wayne CEO who was the right age and ethnicity to be her daughter, why did she think it was purely a business trick and not even realize that Ryan might have a personal motive for the hack? Something doesn't add up.
     
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  5. DarKush

    DarKush Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Looked at this week's episode this morning. I'm enjoying this season so far. Is Batwoman a good series? No, but it's entertaining enough to watch, more so than the other Arrowverse series have been in a while. I like Leslie as Batwoman and I like the supporting cast. The writing could always be better, but it's improved since the first two seasons. I think Robin Givens brings some good, and needed, edge to the series.

    I liked that Nora or her sister weren't bad in this episode-the sister did a bad thing but for a good reason. I also liked the gang leader and hope she comes back in the future. I thought she matched up well against Batwoman. Since the 'client' she worked for is still a mystery, I'm assuming she might. And though the client could be Jada or Marquis, I'm guessing it's really Wilder's father. In the interplay with Ryan and Jada I got the impression that Jada gave Ryan up to protect her. I wasn't expecting Marquis to be older than Ryan, I thought he was going to be a younger brother who came way after Jada had gotten her life together. Him being older, Jada apparently cheating on his father, that adds some nice dramatic wrinkles.

    I'm iffy on Alice, the actress is good, but something about what they have Alice saying or doing, doesn't quite work for me; that said I did like her scenes with Mary and how she's playing mind games. I also liked the comparison of Mary and Alice with Nora and her sister. I'm guessing that Mary and Alice will form some kind of sisterly bond before the season is over.

    I did have quibbles. Trek_God pointed out that Wilder didn't even use her utility belt and I wish we had seen her attempt that. I'm glad a line of dialogue was put in about the temperature regulator failing in her suit because that was a question on my mind. After freezing Batwoman I don't get why the gang stuck around. I did like that it provided for a badass-finally-scene for Batwing. I also don't get why the gang stuck around again after destroying the bridge. It was too convenient to set up Batwoman and Batwing catching up to them, though I did like the use of Batwing there again. I was hoping for some bat-skis on the Batmobile though.

    Didn't care for the ending with Mary though. Seems like someone would've noticed her getting dragged off.
     
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  6. TREK_GOD_1

    TREK_GOD_1 Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Its quite a statement to say its not a good series, and if so, where can it go, as one would expect the "experienced" Berlanti crew to know how to straighten out their problems by now...or perhaps that's the point--they never knew how to produce a good show no matter how long it had been on air (and once again, it stands as a permanent contrast to Black Lightning which was not run by the usual Berlanti hacks).

    It would seem like an artificial bond, as Mary is constantly begging for attention, while Alice never sought a connection to anyone other than Kate (quite naturally), so there's no motivation for Alice to ever seek such a relationship with Mary. This would include any forced Mary-saves-Alice or Alice-saves-Mary scenes that would not surprise anyone if it played out.

    Heh, perhaps that's an unintentional comment on how no one really notices Mary at all--similar to Alice's psychoanalysis of Mary and her non-relationship to the Bat-gang.
     
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  7. DarKush

    DarKush Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Good point about Mary not being noticed (after she was dragged off). I hadn't thought about that tying back to what Alice said about her, and that would reinforce what Alice said in a visual way, so if that was intentional then I got to give the writers credit on that.

    I do think the Arrowverse has had some good seasons, but a lot of so-so and bad ones (or I'm assuming bad because once I lose interest I don't hang around much or at all). So I don't think it's all bad. When it comes to Batwoman I think the execution of the series from jump was bad and they've had trouble getting off the floor due to that. And I got to put that on the showrunner. They could've had a series that was a combination of Arrow/Black Lightning, that had the social consciousness of BL, Luke Cage, or Watchmen (HBO) or they could've gone more in a horror direction (which was the vibe I got from New 52 Batwoman's comic run), but instead, they went with a faux gritty and dark tone and to be honest Ruby Rose wasn't the strongest person to pick as a lead. Despite her/their popularity and how well she/they looked in the suit and did the action scenes, I found her/their acting wooden (with the exception of when she/they acted opposite Melissa Benoist; the two had nice chemistry), and the writing and whatever else was going on behind-the-scenes didn't help Rose's performance either.

    Leslie has more presence and a buoyancy the weak writing doesn't water down too much. The potential is there to give fans a Black, LGBTQ, female, poor/working class hero that can speak to these times exploring different social issues while also delivering some nice Bat action. Batwoman had the toys Arrow was denied in so many ways, but has done little with them. I can only imagine what the first few seasons of Arrow might have been like if they had had as much carte blanche. Or the back half of the series when Arrow really needed the help (I thought the first two Arrow seasons stand as some of the best, if not the best, in the entire Arrowverse).
     
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  8. Marc

    Marc Fleet Admiral Premium Member

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    come to think of, have we ever seen anything really used from the utility belt over the 3 seasons other than smoke pellets and Ryan's Bo staff?
     
  9. theenglish

    theenglish Vice Admiral Admiral

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    I agree that she wasn't compelling as a lead character, and I think that a lot of Rose's oddly wooden acting could have come from the behind the scenes difficulties she was having at the time. I've liked her in other things that I've seen her in.
     
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  10. DarKush

    DarKush Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    I tend to agree. I saw Rose in a guest role on Dark Matter and she/they wasn't bad on that. Perhaps the best I've seen them. I thought Rose was adequate in John Wick. They did what the role needed them to do. Looked at a little of the Red Notice movie and Rose wasn't what made me fall asleep on that.
     
  11. Commander Troi

    Commander Troi Adult of Dubious Maturity Premium Member

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    Honey, I have to ask, why do you watch the Berlanti shows if you hate them so much?
     
  12. DarKush

    DarKush Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    I forgot to mention the other day when it comes to the Alice/Mary bond I think a big theme this season will be family isn't necessarily biological, it's who you chose to have in your life. I can see Ryan eventually being tempted to chose the Jets or her biological father versus her Bat Family, and I could see the a similar theme playing out with Mary and Alice, because despite how twisted and dark it is, they are the only family they have left-on the series-anyway, and they are tied together by their bond with Jacob and Kate.

    If things go the route with Wilder's father that I'm thinking they will, he's got to be a big time mover and shaker, and the only one I think that could inspire fear in someone as formidable as Jada Jet, has to be Ra's Al Ghul or a major DC villain on that level, and there's few. As I mentioned before, you got Vandal Savage, Lex, Deathstroke, Reverse Flash, Damien Darhk, and Dark Archer already in the Arrowverse too, but Ra's of course fits for a Batman story a lot better.

    I guess they could go with the Joker, but I don't know if DC would allow that (though it would be neat to see the Gotham Joker again; if they brought Montoya over why not him? Heck, they could bring the Gotham Ra's Al Ghul over as well, which I liked better than the Arrowverse version). While the comic's Dr. Hurt would be a very good candidate, however, that's not a game stopping name drop that the average person would know.

    I saw someone before mentioned Bruce as Wilder's father. I don't see them doing that, but perhaps it could be Hush.

    Another name that comes to mind is the Riddler, perhaps as way to build his pop cultural presence before the Matt Reeves' film, then again, DC has generally had a hands off approach for a lot of the characters that will be in movies. That said, I think once again Gotham's Riddler would be neat to see on Batwoman as well.
     
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  13. Guy Gardener

    Guy Gardener Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    Robin is 11 years older than Christie and Ryan is 27 years old in the most recent episode of Batwoman.

    Ryan was conceived circa 1993, when Bruce Wayne was 18ish and Jada Jett was 29.

    Given some wiggle room, with months, Bruce may have been 17, and that's a fantastic reason to hide the pregnancy.
     
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  14. DarKush

    DarKush Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    ^
    Fair enough Guy,

    I’ve been thinking a bit more about the decision to make Ryan Wilder CEO of Wayne of how that both provides opportunities and pit falls for the character and the series. Arguably, Ryan being the new CEO, with her rags-to-riches story, a poor, orphaned black LGBTQ female who has been incarcerated and now runs one of the largest and most powerful corporations in the world is the kind of success story that provides more hope than her being Batwoman, even in Gotham. In the long run she has more potential to do more good as CEO than she does running around as Batwoman.

    I also think her quick rise would invite a lot of questions and scrutiny from the media, corporate competitors, and from the Wayne Board and investors/shareholders. Right or wrong, race, gender, age, education, and class will play into questions about her qualifications for the job, not to mention her “criminal” past. I don’t think that’s something the show should be skittish about or not address, but instead lean into it.

    I know mass audiences have short patience or tolerance when it comes to discussions/explorations of racism, but by making Ryan a black woman, and touting that race change for the character as progress and a selling point, as well as some of the storylines already addressed, that’s part of who the Wilder Batwoman character is and it would be a disservice to not explore that aspect of her more and how that affects her approach to fighting crime or working with the GCPD and now how she will lead as CEO. To do otherwise is to cheapen the change and to tokenize the character, which exposes the change from Kate to Ryan as nothing more than a publicity stunt to perhaps stave off cancelation.

    I see Wilder being CEO as limiting her ability to operate as Batwoman due the greater scrutiny. Bruce seemed to manage this just fine, but Bruce is a rich white man who spent years cultivating a false dilettante/playboy persona. Ryan, as a young black woman in the high world of corporate finance, sticks out like a sore thumb, and that’s bound to invite pushback in a way Bruce wouldn't have dealt with, because Bruce would almost be invisible because he “belongs” where Ryan doesn’t.

    I think making Wilder the CEO is more of a homogenizing effort on the part of Caroline Dries so they don’t have to write about the challenges facing young black women on a regular basis. Instead, there might be a special episode here and there (like how James Olsen got those on Supergirl), but I don’t think Dries understands, and I don’t know if any of the other Batwoman writers do, what it’s like to live as a poor black woman/person day-to-day, and it seems they don’t really want to. So instead, they are just going to turn Ryan into a generic well-off crime fighter, so its easier to explain away all her gadgets and how easily she can get wherever the plot needs her to go. When I first read about the character description for Wilder, which I found very problematic (and was glad it was toned down by her debut episode), I didn’t get why they just didn’t make her one of Luke’s sisters.

    My thinking there was with a black female Batwoman already being triggering for some that tying her to the established Fox family would get ahead of some of that groaning. (It’s notable to me how much success the Luke Fox version of Batwing has had over the original David Zavimbe version, and I think that’s in large part due to Luke already having those ties to the Bat Family in ways that Zavimbe didn’t, and I think the same thing could’ve worked for making Batwoman one of the Fox sisters instead of a brand-new character, and it's not lost on me that the Future State Batman is another member of the Fox family and not a wholly original character).

    And now that they’ve given Ryan this CEO job, I don’t see why they just didn’t make her Tiffany or Tam Fox from jump, especially if they are going to take away the poor/working class angle that made Wilder stand out. It wouldn’t have changed any of the relationships on the series, thus far, outside of the new one with Jada Jet (but Tiffany or Tam could still have been Luke’s half-sister or adopted sister) so there’s even a way to keep that relationship.
     
    Last edited: Nov 1, 2021
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  15. Guy Gardener

    Guy Gardener Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    Does Ryan have a degree?

    Jada said that she did.

    Initially I assumed that that was an assumption by Jada and she was wrong. Because if Ryan had a degree she wouldn't be living in her car.

    However...

    1. Ryan has a Bachelors from a community college. It doesn't cost that much, and it's not that hard to achieve. Small student loan and she's good. It's something that happened when she was still a "child".

    2. Ryan got a Scholarship, either because she's poor, or because one or both of her parents knew who she was ten years ago, and gave her a pretend scholarship.

    3. Ryan lied.

    4. The PR asshole who wrote Ryan's BIO on the Wayne Industries website lied, or repeated a lie, that she had a business degree.

    5. Luke Hacked Gotham University, and stole her an education.

    6. Mary, Luke or Kate bought Ryan an Honorary degree, and back dated it.

    7. Ryan's degree is in acting or from a culinary school. A degree that has nothing to do with running a fortune 500 company.

    8. Identity theft. Ryan has been piggy backing on the accomplishments of another Ryan Wilder for quite some time now.

    9. Jada lied about Ryan having a degree to see if Ryan would correct her, as a test of character.

    10. Ryan has an MBA from Harvard. What? Like it's hard?

     
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  16. Mr. Adventure

    Mr. Adventure Admiral Admiral

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    Maybe white privilege talking but I never saw anything deeper in Ryan being acting CEO or Luke becoming Batwing. These seem like typical Arrowverse beats that would be done with any character. I see Ryan becoming acting CEO as a way to make the Jada Jet storyline work. Luke becoming Batwing is not unlike Cisco becoming Vibe or Alex Danvers becoming whatever it is she is when she dresses up.

    I do like to see different perspectives of what could be with those characters if different angles were explored. Though still early I'm not convinced that those directions were intended to be explored.

    I think it would be hard to do something with the acting CEO angle without setting up board rooms scenes and members to play off. Realistically, I would imagine the board of directors and investors at Wayne Enterprises would be very nervous about placing anyone without any real experience regardless of race. I would be really surprised if the show has any interest in actually exploring this storyline in any meaningful way.
     
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  17. TREK_GOD_1

    TREK_GOD_1 Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Time will tell. Wilder already stated her family was the Bat-gang, and now she's moving toward the Jets, which should fuel argumens about her loyalties, since she was allowed to carry on as BW. That, and if her brother turns on her after she put distance between herself and the Bat-gang, then its easy to imagine your "family isn't necessarily biological" angle closing this season--only if the Jets leave town, as I do not find them fascinating at all.

    From Alice's perspective, she has Kate and her father; they're not dead, and before their departure, each finally accepted her, so she has family bonds to look forward to, which means there's no reason to open her emotional doors to one as self-centered and whining as Mary--a privileged woman who only sees relationships from the clinically unhealthy view of "What can I get from this?!?"

    Over the decades, comic books have suffered from the soap-opera trope of everyone being related to each other and/or having some one-in-a-million coincidental relation to a bigger event, with superhero films not far behind. That said, one would hope Batwoman never goes that route with Ra's Al Ghul (above all others you listed), as it would come off as shoving anything into this series for attention's sake, instead of any creative motivation.

    Yes, I seriously doubt you will ever see the Joker on this series.

    That's part of the problem: I doubt the showrunners will ever show Wilder out of her element in that position, despite the fact she has zero experience in the corporate world, or knows the specifics of what Wayne Enterprises is doing from day to day, project to project. It just happens

    Yeah, that does not sound like this series.
     
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  18. DarKush

    DarKush Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Good point about Alice still having living blood family with Jacob and Kate, though I was looking at it through the lens of the characters still on the series, and Mary's there every episode while Jacob and Kate aren't, and if Alice is already imagining all these letters that Jacob sent, which he didn't, that might make her question their bond and she eventually turns to Mary for sisterly support.

    Regarding Ryan's parentage, if the father angle does come into play (and it might not), it makes more sense to tie Wilder to an existing/known DC Comics character than just to create some new, random one, in order to attempt to drum up excitement. (Though I liked Chad Coleman quite a bit, does anyone remember or care much about Tobias Church? I wish he had been Brick, so we could then have gotten that comics' tie, and that might have resulted in Brick getting a bigger role in the comics, etc.; Granted new characters can take off, like John Diggle, but it's rare). And I think this series is way past shoving everything into it, especially this season, with Batwoman facing people who find a lot of Batvillain trophies.
     
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  19. TREK_GOD_1

    TREK_GOD_1 Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Batwoman
    Season 3, Episode 4 - "Antireeze"

    Luke Fox/Batwing:
    Luke's still having issues with the suit--this time, the Lucius A.I. is not responding to commands, or activating at all, until he restores the fail safe. He asks the A.I. if he's ready for the suit, to which the A.I. responds in the negative (SEE NOTES).


    Alice: So, she's losing her mind--apparently this is not triggered by the nanobots, since she imagined Jacob sent her letters since beginning her stint in Arkham. She also hallucinates she killed an orderly, who returns (as Alice is searching Jordan's room) to taunt her about admitting something about herself.

    Mary:
    Clueless a ever, she cannot comprehend why Luke has nothing to say to her....
    Later, in typically childish fashion, she mouths off to Luke who correctly calls her out on the job she gave to herself as "team doctor" in not quickly coming up with a solution to Jordan's condition.

    Wilder/Jada Jet/Marquis Jet: Wilder makes a "30 under 30" list...for? How has she earned that distinction? Further, if she was so concerned about keeping her distance from Marquis--and by extension Jada, she would not chase the absentee mama. Oh. wait--that's a common sense solution, so the writers were never going to have a character go in the logical direction.

    Now, it appears she's being conned by the "hurt" Marquis, and of course, that moved her to apologize to him, hoping he can be a partner / buffer from Jada's corporate scheming, which threatens to send Wilder to prison for the "fact" she's diverted money into some private account. Wilder later learns that Wayne stock is still plummeting due to her still being acting CEO, despite an official story tagging the money with legitimate investments with Argus. Luke fears Wayne Enterprises will be lost, which he identifies as his father's company, more than Wayne's, and one of the last connections he has to his father.

    Wilder decides to fight, but that leads back to the following questions:

    "Will Marquis seek a real partnership with Wilder?"

    Yep.

    "Will Wilder buy what he's selling?"

    She's desperate and gullible enough, but I'm certain she will eventually deliver some one-liner about playing both sides, or Jada underestimating a girl from the streets, etc.

    "Will Marquis pretend to betray his mother, but end up trying to screw mama and THE illegitimate sister, too?"

    That remains to be seen.

    ...you can add "Will Jada's threat to freeze her son be a ploy to distract the Jet family plans against Wayne Enterprises?" to the list.

    Sophie: So, she goes from a Crow concerned with corruption from within (and on the GCPD), and trying to prevent Jacob from killing BW, to being obsessed with a relationship. That's rattling around Caroline Dries' head, to be sure.

    Sophie's sister (Jordan) was kidnapped and frozen, presumably by Mr.Freeze's tech. Sophie is understandably upset, but Wilder talks her down from the edge of moving her--fearing that she might end up with the same aging issue as other victims.

    Black Glove society: Alice recognizes Jordan's condition as the work of the secretive Black Glove Society (old money group experimenting with Freeze's tech to achieve immortality). While searching Jordan's room for the incriminating evidence she's collected on the organization, Alice and Sophie are beaten into unconsciousness by a team of the "Bee Gees". Waking up tied to chairs with a gasoline trail beginning to ignite, Alice shares her nutjob problems with Sophie, along with the fact no one wants to help her. BW arrives in time to freeze the flames...

    NOTES:
    Someone remembered the community center. Hm.

    As predicted, Luke is essentially admitting he's suffering from PTSD (which will give Mary some credit) but again, this is merely lip service from those who see Luke's issues not to take a deep, serious look at the real issues black males barely endure in America, but to push White Liberal politicized talking points (of course) and catchphrases in what is destined to be yes--another Very Special Episode. I can imagine Wilder, Luke and Sophie will act as mouthpieces for the "We Know Best" While Liberals running this series, as if they (the showrunners) ever fully engaged the people they're using to check a "relevance" / pat-themselves-on-the-shoulder box.

    GRADE: C.
     
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  20. The Habs Fan

    The Habs Fan Commodore Commodore

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    Another good Batwoman episode. I continue to think that who Ryan’s father is has something to do with the way her mother is acting. Maybe he’ll be the big bad in season 4?

    Also, the Black Glove Society seems similar to the Court of Owls. I wonder if they will play a part in this season.