Spoilers Batwoman season 3

Discussion in 'Science Fiction & Fantasy' started by Enterprise is Great, Oct 13, 2021.

  1. Enterprise is Great

    Enterprise is Great Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Season 3 premiere tonight.
     
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  2. Markonian

    Markonian Fleet Admiral Moderator

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    Wow, it's been renewed!
    How was the change between the Batwomen explained? Did they do a James Bond/Doctor Who style regeneration?
     
  3. Mr. Adventure

    Mr. Adventure Admiral Admiral

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    Kate was missing and presumed dead, this one's a separate entity who has taken the mantle.
     
  4. TREK_GOD_1

    TREK_GOD_1 Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Batwoman
    Season 3, Episode 1 - "Mad as a Hatter" - Season Premiere

    Luke Fox/Batwing:
    Being Wayne's confidant, keeper of the Bat-realm and essentially is the "Q" of the Bat-gang, he--as noted time and again--should have a greater position of authority in the decisions of the group. He's the only true insider; everyone else stumbled into this world. So, he should never be referred to as a "sidekick" and just how is Wilder now tied to Wayne affairs (seen in the teaser for E2)?

    Unless the Fox A.I. (SEE NOTES) straightens out the Batwing suits issues, Luke stumbling around and never asserting himself (like all of season two) will wear thin soon. Speaking of Luke, as predicted, there was not ONE reference to his brush with his racial identity problems in relation to the criminal justice system.

    Wilder/BW:
    So, her mother had access to millions to hide her pregnancy, and there's evidence of a father....

    Although she says she's not interested in knowing who her mother was, if big money comes her way from rich mommy, will she move up in the world and forget all of her "of the people" act from last season?

    The cracks are already forming in the Bat-gang, as Sophie asked "what am I missing?" about the "free Alice" conversation between Luke and Wilder. Apparently, Sophie is not as trusted as she thought...

    Alice: In the season 2 finale, NuKate expressed the belief that Alice will never be Beth again, until she desires the change, yet she accepts Jacob as her father and believes he will spring her from Arkham--even while imprisoned. The episode's most effective scene was her act (and yes, she could be acting) of breaking down as BW broke the fantasy of Alice pretending napkins and cut out ads were postcards from Jacob.

    She's insane as ever, but still the sharpest tool in the box as she so easily played with Wilder, questioning the strength of her relationships with Luke and Mary.

    BW promised to let Alice run if she helped the Bat-gang...oh, come on. There's no way the showrunners were going to let go of yet another strong performer in one Rachel Skarsten.

    Mary: The teen community center located above Mary's clinic...what happened with that?
    Anyway, she's still going on and on and on with her co-dependent whining--now about Alice saying she was communicating with her father (gee, that's strange ...only in Mary-land)

    Mad Hatter:
    Eh. Criminals who are fans of other criminals has never held much value, and this version of Hatter is just too much of a twerp. I was pleasantly surprised he was defeated so quickly.

    Montoya:
    I sense her obsession with recovering Bat-villain weapons, and holding Wilder's ID over her head (SEE NOTES) might lead to a relationship (with Sophie end up the jealous party).

    Sophie:
    Yikes--that dye job did not work. According to Mary, she still has some sort of contact with NuKate. I'm not sure that means NuKate will make a surprise appearance leading up to the mid or season finale.

    NOTES:
    As seasons go, will the the third time be the charm? We will see, but Montoya is already annoying, and this series is really coming off as desperate trying to keep Skarsten as a regular with this improbable, forced team-up with Batwoman.

    Luke's father programming the suit's AI to specifically speak to Luke smacks of the Donner Superman's crystal holding the consciousness of Jor-El, who will act as a beyond-the-grave advisor to his son.

    GRADE: C.
     
  5. Mr. Adventure

    Mr. Adventure Admiral Admiral

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    I think we need to accept that Luke is a sidekick, and more to the point, a side character, in this show. For better or worse, this show is about Batwoman and Alice and everyone else is there in support to serve that end.
     
  6. Christopher

    Christopher Writer Admiral

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    Not a bad season opener; the new Mad Hatter was pretty effective. Although I think there was a scene missing, since at the graduation the Bat-team was calling him "Liam" even though we never saw them identify who he was.

    Montoya is an interesting addition, off to a strong start. I'm glad the Arrowverse is continuing its tradition of giving past DC actors a second chance with roles that were cut short, in this case giving Victoria Cartagena a second chance to play Renee Montoya after Gotham arbitrarily and inexplicably erased her halfway through its first season. And Montoya's off to a promising start so far. It's telling that her last line in her debut episode was "Answer the question." What do you think that might be setting up, hmm???????

    So now Lucius Fox is the JARVIS to Batwing's Iron Man? Although since it's an AI copy of the hero's father, maybe it's more like his Jor-El.


    "Need to accept?" It's literally right there in the title of the show. This doesn't even need to be said.
     
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  7. TREK_GOD_1

    TREK_GOD_1 Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Its another example of a Berlanti show marginalizing a black male character who had a stated background which should have made him more important, similar to the James Olsen role on Supergirl.
     
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  8. Mr. Adventure

    Mr. Adventure Admiral Admiral

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    I know you're looking for strong black male characters but playing devil's advocate for a minute why would he bring up his relation with the criminal justice system in this particular episode? Becoming Batwing is part of his response and struggling to master the role fits the character we've seen so far who is a technical guru who has not needed to be physical. As long as he doesn't turn into a buffoon it makes more sense and shows more character than Ryan who somehow acquired Kate's ninja skills with a few Taekwondo classes at the Y.
     
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  9. Marc

    Marc Fleet Admiral Premium Member

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    Umm I think Ryan's martial arts skills are bit more than few leasons at the Y. Pretty sure it was mentioned early on she was pretty accomplished (Black Belt?).
     
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  10. Mr. Adventure

    Mr. Adventure Admiral Admiral

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    Being a bit facetious for effect though I don't know where she fit all that in between being homeless and in prison. It just seemed she mastered the batarang and swinging around town with very little effort.
     
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  11. TREK_GOD_1

    TREK_GOD_1 Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Meaning, his experiences from last season should still have an impact on his life; the quickie "feel good" fight with Discount Bane (Tavaroff) was not the wrap up of a black male character who had been subjected to police abuse which nearly cost him his life--although Dries and the rest of the showrunners wanted that scene to be just that.

    Well, as we see, Luke's first outing as Batwing was not entirely without problems and in this season's debut--where he's been on the job for some time--he's still struggling (beyond the technical glitches of the suit), and despite his being the one and only Wayne "legacy" character with direct ties to Batman, he's being treated like a sidekick.

    Regarding Ryan's overnight skills...yes, its highly improbable. The reason Kate was able to adapt to the role of Batwoman was her being the recipient of serious military combat training in several disciplines, which is--frankly--above Wilder's level, yet the latter is supposed to have served as BW just as effectively, and as you pointed out, mastered certain Bat-gadgets, which should never be easy for any random person to achieve.
     
  12. Marc

    Marc Fleet Admiral Premium Member

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    She probably did it before was homeless and before alice killed her foster mother.

    Batarang and swining through town - practice.
     
  13. Christopher

    Christopher Writer Admiral

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    According to the Arrowverse Wiki, "Left with no other choice, Ryan had to cope within the prison’s rough and secluded environment, filled with ragtag occupants. For her own survival, lest she not live to see the day of her release, Ryan improved herself not just in body, but in mind."

    Now, the popular image of prisons as kill-or-be-killed hellholes is a myth; in reality, prisoners face far more abuse from the prison authorities than from their fellow prisoners. But I suppose either way works for Ryan, particularly since the way the system mistreated her and beat her down is intrinsic to her backstory.

    Also, Ryan was abducted as a teenager, so it's possible her interest in self-defense began after that experience.
     
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  14. The Habs Fan

    The Habs Fan Commodore Commodore

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    This is a promising start to the third season. I’m not overly enthused that it sounds like this season is going to be a scavenger hunt for old Batman villain items, since Arrowverse shows have done scavenger hunt seasons in the past, but I’m sure it’ll be better than the hunt for the totems currently happening on Supergirl.


    Luke becoming Batwing is marginalizing the character? I completely disagree and it remains to be seen how he is used compared to Jimmy Olsen on Supergirl. Anyway, this show is called Batwoman and not Batwing, so Batwoman will always be the main character.
     
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  15. TREK_GOD_1

    TREK_GOD_1 Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Batwing has nothing to do with how the character has been marginalized (as I pointed out in the season two reviews); further, Luke is the one and only true connection to Bruce Wayne / Batman. Not Mary, Wilder, Alice or anyone else, so with his connection and years of insider knowledge, he should have a more prominent role than what is happening.

    What did Kate say in "A Secret Kept from All the Rest" from season one?

    "We both know there's no Batwoman without Luke Fox."

    She too got ahead of herself until she realized how much Luke is the brain and soul of any operation attempting to pick up the Bat-baton and succeed. That was one of the best scenes in the debut year--a natural outcome of what audiences already knew.
     
    Last edited: Oct 19, 2021 at 1:21 PM
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  16. DarKush

    DarKush Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Just looked at the season three premiere. I didn't even know this series was back on until I saw this thread. I've ragged on this series' writing, but I got to say the season three premiere was a marked improvement almost completely across the board for me.

    Leslie looks even more assured in the suit. I liked a lot of her action scenes. Her betrayal of Alice was unexpected, and felt like something a more seasoned Batwoman would do, and I liked the surprise and disappointment when Alice realized that Wilder really wasn't going to let her escape (to me it seems like Wilder's Batwoman from last season might have actually let her go). I thought that betrayal, along with all the imagined postcards she thought Jacob was sending, is helping to turn Alice from an irredeemable character to an antihero. I further liked Alice's betrayal of Batwoman at the end. It keeps their relationship from becoming too mushy too quickly.

    Overall, had no problem with the acting. I thought the Mad Hatter impostor was good, sufficiently creepy enough, and the writing gave him some valid points, but with him just taking his making them to the very extreme, and that all made for a more compelling villain.

    I also like how Montoya is being used, so far, here. This first episode neatly set up the season's arc, but also helped establish several of the relationships that might blossom, or devolve, as it were.

    I do have quibbles. I thought the timing didn't work as well when Team Batwoman jumped into action to save the professor. Seemed like they were dawdling a bit too long, and Batwoman even stops to let Alice dress up? I thought the commencement scenes could've been executed better.

    I also wonder how they are going to make Wilder's mother storyline work. If she had millions of dollars to pay off a crooked doctor seems she could've just terminated her pregnancy or put the child up for adoption without going through all that. Or even paid some people to look after the child. I think bringing this angle into it creates a bigger storyline, mythology for Wilder, however it also takes away what was supposed to be her appeal, as a poor/working class Batwoman as opposed to Kate, who was a child/scion of privilege. Granted, Wilder's mom being rich doesn't erase all the years of struggle Wilder endured, however it still undercuts the idea of what was supposed to make Wilder special to me. Now, her specialness is going into a more typical entertainment direction (in terms of being lost royalty). That said, I think Robin Givens is an inspired choice for the wealthy, glamorous mother. I'm assuming we'll get answers to many of my questions, and I hope we find out who Wilder's father is. Perhaps whoever he might be is a factor in the decision's her mother makes. Here's hoping that it's a familiar Batman/DC/Arrowverse character. Can't think of many off the top of my head that might make the mother want to hide Wilder (which I suspect is what she might have been doing), outside of Ra's Al Ghul. There's also Vandal Savage, Damien Darhk, and Deathstroke, all established in the Arrowverse already along with Ra's, if they wanted to go that route. If Wilder is the daughter of the Dark Archer that would be interesting and a nice Arrow connection. Of course I would love to see a great black DC supervillain get some attention here. I can't see Black Manta getting the nod, owing that the Aquaman sequel is coming out. Brick was race bent on Arrow, but perhaps could be changed again. Arrow's Tobias Church got way too short shrift. Some flashbacks establishing Tobias Whale as her father would be pretty sweet. With Jezebel Jet, in the comics, being a member of the Black Glove, debuting Dr. Simon Hurt (perhaps as Wilder's father, or as the real big bad of the season) in live action would be really cool.

    Also not a fan of how the series is handling Batwing thus far. From jump, him being called a 'sidekick', then his suit freezing up leaving Batwoman to keep saving him, and lastly Batwoman giving him his code name. I would rather Luke not be Batwing than to be a substandard one. The only tolerable thing about it thus far is the bantering between the two actors, it has a nice sibling vibe.
     
    Last edited: Oct 19, 2021 at 12:39 PM
  17. DarKush

    DarKush Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Couple other things I forgot about that stuck out to me. I thought it was strange that the person who found Mad Hatter's hat didn't see the circuitry in the hat before selling it. Also a throwaway line about Batman putting Mad Hatter away (or something) 20 years ago. If that was the case, the actor they picked to impersonate Bruce last year was way too young. I still wish they had cast Dougray Scott as Bruce Wayne/Batman. He would've made for a very good Bruce/Batman.
     
  18. Mr. Adventure

    Mr. Adventure Admiral Admiral

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    The naming thing is indeed weak.

    Would've been 25 at the time going by the actor's real life age.
     
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  19. David cgc

    David cgc Admiral Premium Member

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    I guess it having been twenty years (and him having a successor) means I'll never get the scene I wanted of the original Mad Hatter complaining about Alice stealing his schtick. Also makes my headcanon that the Wonderland gang was wearing old masks from the Hatter's goons that they got used less likely.
     
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  20. Kaiju "the spy"

    Kaiju "the spy" Admiral Admiral

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