Babylon 5 - I'm finally going to do it

[Ensign_Redshirt]

The "bad CG" is pretty much limited to the first season. From about the end of the second onwards they'd pretty much got it all sussed out.
Some people just like to whinge but the fact is, even 'The Gathering' for all it's limitations, at the time featured the very best CG work seen on a TV show (other shows were still filming miniatures.) Of course it's crude by modern standards, but then how can it not be?

Yeah, it was 1993 after all. That's like saying that the special effects of Star Trek: TOS suck. Well, they do compared to today (emphasis on "today").

But maybe it's a bit different for people (like me) who originally watched the show in the mid-90ies.

 

[tomalak301]

As for 'Shadow Dancing' as a season finale, it might be worth noting that JMS has never ended a B5 season with a "big battle" or conflagration episode. There's usually one near the end, but the end itself is always about the characters, not the ker'splosions.

That's true (Even though I would Argue there was a big battle in Fall of Night), but I wasn't even thinking about it ending with a big battle. I was thinking more of Anna Sheridan showing up at the very end, which was surprising the first time around.

 

[tomalak301]

I made it to season 4 today. In the second go round, I really was looking forward to early season 4 again because I remember, especially the premiere, not really appreciating it at first. I think given I gave myself some time between Za'Ha'Dum and The Hour of the Wolf, it might have helped change my opinion because THOTW is a damn good season premiere, given what we know is coming. It's like a bridge (Calm before the storm) between what just happened and what is going to happen, and together with Whatever Happened to Mr. Garibaldi and The Summoning, it's making for an exciting start to the season.

I may have to rethink season 4 now. Originally, I think I liked season 2 more, but Season 4 is riviting, exciting, and awesome. I mean the scene in The Summoning of the 40 lashes just to get G'Kar to scream is excellent television. Then Sheridan comes back, and Geribaldi has become distrustful, and then everything else that happens, this season is busy. Looking forward to rewatching it again. Heck, it might even become my favorite, passing Season 3.

 

[StarshipDefiant]

I made it to season 4 today. In the second go round, I really was looking forward to early season 4 again because I remember, especially the premiere, not really appreciating it at first. I think given I gave myself some time between Za'Ha'Dum and The Hour of the Wolf, it might have helped change my opinion because THOTW is a damn good season premiere, given what we know is coming. It's like a bridge (Calm before the storm) between what just happened and what is going to happen, and together with Whatever Happened to Mr. Garibaldi and The Summoning, it's making for an exciting start to the season.

I may have to rethink season 4 now. Originally, I think I liked season 2 more, but Season 4 is riviting, exciting, and awesome. I mean the scene in The Summoning of the 40 lashes just to get G'Kar to scream is excellent television. Then Sheridan comes back, and Geribaldi has become distrustful, and then everything else that happens, this season is busy. Looking forward to rewatching it again. Heck, it might even become my favorite, passing Season 3.

I definitely consider season three and four to be among the best (if not the best) for Babylon 5

 

[Reverend]

Keep in mind that Joe designed the series to mimic the structure of a novel; introduction, rising action, complication, climax and denouement. Seasons 3 & 4 are essentially complication & climax, respectively, so of course they're going to be faster paced and more exciting than the others. However, they are a part of a whole and wouldn't really stand up so well without the support of the other 3 seasons.

 

[tomalak301]

Keep in mind that Joe designed the series to mimic the structure of a novel; introduction, rising action, complication, climax and denouement. Seasons 3 & 4 are essentially complication & climax, respectively, so of course they're going to be faster paced and more exciting than the others. However, they are a part of a whole and wouldn't really stand up so well without the support of the other 3 seasons.

I know, and all this time I've been looking at it as such, but I'm slowly changing my opinion on Season 4 the more I watch it. That's got to count for something.

 

[tomalak301]

I really think Season 4 might just be the best season. Going through the first half it's quite excellent with some quibbles here and there. I just like where this season is taking some of these characters now, especially Garibaldi, who I've said just shined in the final two seasons. Some thoughts on where I'm at so far:

-The Long Night, while setting up everything, is an amazing episode. We get Cartagia biting it, and then all that set up for the next episode is just really really good. I feel bad for set up episodes, like this one, or DS9's Favor the Bold, or some others. While they are excellent in their own right, they get overshadowed because just mainly they are the bridge between the last episode and the major happenings of the next one.

-Into the Fire - The more I think about this episode, the more I just don't like the way the Shadow War ended. I mean we get so much good development, war of ideology, and the only thing we get here is the children are telling their parents to go F themselves. Hell, we never got to see what was in a Vorlon or Shadow ship and that's a missed opportunity. Also, the "Get the hell out of our Galaxy" was a bit heavy handed, like Dennis mentioned in the other thread.

-Really liking this bridge with Epiphanies and, hell, an episode I really didn't like the last time but changed my opinion on now, The Illusion of Truth. When I talk about good chemistry between Boxlietner and Ivanova, the one scene that comes to mind is the "Open Airlock Policy" scene. One of the series best, and funniest moments. Also, now that I know what happens, I really changed my opinion on the ISN report. In fact, the thing I was thinking about was what if I was watching this without knowing the "real" truth. Ah the beauty of propaganda isn't it? As for Epiphanies, like I said, the more I see Garibaldi and knowing what happens, the more I really am liking this storyline. Probably one of B5's best storylines.

 

[Reverend]

Hell, we never got to see what was in a Vorlon or Shadow ship and that's a missed opportunity.

JMS is never going to come out with that description. He didn't even do it in one of the Short Stories where Sheridan boards Ulkesh's old ship. The reason is pretty obvious; as soon as you describe or depict it in any detail, the mystery is gone. The closest you're going to get in the glimpse you get of the inside of Galen's ship. Bare empty space with a few mysterious lights. Less is indeed more.

 

[Neroon]

Hell, we never got to see what was in a Vorlon or Shadow ship and that's a missed opportunity.

JMS is never going to come out with that description. He didn't even do it in one of the Short Stories where Sheridan boards Ulkesh's old ship. The reason is pretty obvious; as soon as you describe or depict it in any detail, the mystery is gone. The closest you're going to get in the glimpse you get of the inside of Galen's ship. Bare empty space with a few mysterious lights. Less is indeed more.

That approach worked for Homer (the poet, that is), so why not for jms as well? Consider it a physical manifestation of G'Kar's well-known quote: "No one here is exactly what he appears. "

 

[RandyS]

Hell, we never got to see what was in a Vorlon or Shadow ship and that's a missed opportunity.

JMS is never going to come out with that description. He didn't even do it in one of the Short Stories where Sheridan boards Ulkesh's old ship. The reason is pretty obvious; as soon as you describe or depict it in any detail, the mystery is gone. The closest you're going to get in the glimpse you get of the inside of Galen's ship. Bare empty space with a few mysterious lights. Less is indeed more.

I've always hated this argument. Less isn't more, it's less. If less was more, it would be called more, but it's not, it's called less.

This is what JMS said in respect to Clark, and the fact, that despite being the show's major villan, he was only seen three times. I always thought (and still do) that that was wrong.

 

[Neroon]

Maybe grammatically "less is more" doesn't make sense, and practically it usually does not. But in the field of entertainment, when you show a person less, if the imagery and its effects on its surrounding environment are created properly their minds fill in what is needed. Which can vary from person to person. Hence why I mentioned Homer as an oblique reference to his lack of description of Helen of Troy. Two other prime examples are the shark from "Jaws" and the alien from "Alien". Because of technical problems, they could only show the monsters a minimal amount of time. Most critics seem to agree that ironically worked to the film's advantage.

Sure it would have been cool to see more detail inside say a Vorlon ship, but that removes a very effective mystery. It would cost more. It also flies in the face of another of G'Kar's well-known lines: "They are a mystery and I am both terrified and reassured to know that there are still wonders in the Universe, that we have not explained everything."

Smart guy, that old Narn.

 

[Jan]

Hell, we never got to see what was in a Vorlon or Shadow ship and that's a missed opportunity.

JMS is never going to come out with that description. He didn't even do it in one of the Short Stories where Sheridan boards Ulkesh's old ship. The reason is pretty obvious; as soon as you describe or depict it in any detail, the mystery is gone. The closest you're going to get in the glimpse you get of the inside of Galen's ship. Bare empty space with a few mysterious lights. Less is indeed more.

That approach worked for Homer (the poet, that is), so why not for jms as well? Consider it a physical manifestation of G'Kar's well-known quote: "No one here is exactly what he appears. "

Or as JMS said:

There's an old saying: to suggest is to create, to define is to kill. No
matter how amazingly I had described Kosh's ship -- and I do happen to know
what's inside and how it looks -- it would have eliminated the mystery of it.
The way it's written, you can see anything you want, as big as you want, and it
stays mysterious. It's the "behind the door" scenario: you hear something
knocking on the other side of hte door, and for as long as you don't open the
door, it could be ANYthing. The moment you open the door, and see that it's a
six foot cockroach, you can think, "Well, it could be worse, it could've been a
ten foot cockroach."

No matter what I would've described, somebody would have said, "Well, it wasn't
as special as *I* imagined it would be." So best to keep the mystery intact.

Jan

 

[RandyS]

Maybe grammatically "less is more" doesn't make sense, and practically it usually does not. But in the field of entertainment, when you show a person less, if the imagery and its effects on its surrounding environment are created properly their minds fill in what is needed. Which can vary from person to person.

Oh, I wasn't questioning the grammar of the statement. Just expressing my annoyance with a statement that I personally consider to be stupid.

 

[Reverend]

It's not stupid, it's an artistically valid principle. Not just in film and TV but in just about every medium; visual, literary and (to a point) acoustical.

 

[tomalak301]

I'm not sure if there was a show that was better at revealing important stuff than Babylon 5, and the most classic example I can think of to that fact was the best episode of Season 4, The Face of the Enemy. I wonder what it was like, watching this show every week (one episode a week and then with some wacky scheduling, having it be at least a full year between what happened in Za'Ha'Dum and Face of the Enemy before we found out why Garibaldi changed. I remember in the second season of Heroes, it wasn't until episode 8 when we found out what happened right after the season finale for season 1 and really not liking having to wait that long. Of course B5 is much more interesting than Heroes, so that has something going for it, but I digress.

Anyway, that brings me to this episode, and everything about screams classic. I mean this episode alone has two of Babylon 5's best scenes ever: The bar scene (Which is probably in my top 3 best scenes) and then in somewhat the same format, the big reveal. God I love how those two scenes were filmed, with the foreboding music, and the awesomely cool flashes.

I also saw Intersections in Real Time again (An episode I said originally maybe it might work better after seeing how the season ends and the big picture) and I have to say, I really wish it wasn't just two guys in a room. What was there was great, and I think I can appreciate it more the second time, but I felt like we were taking a major detour from the big picture of the war, resistance, and heck what was happening on the station, that this episode didn't quite work for me. I understand maybe the atmosphere needed to be set and the mood needed to be right, and that probably meant no interruptions, but in the end, it itself felt more like an interruption than part of the bigger role.

Loved Between the Darkness and the Light though. Back to what matters, and man I'm still sad about what happens to Ivanova in this episode. The ending was so sad, yet so perfect. I still wish though we got one scene, just one big scene between Sheridan and Garibaldi. After everything Garibaldi put John through, the fact we didn't get a scene felt really wrong.

I just love this whole resistance, retaking earth arc. Feels like so long ago we just finished Into the Fire and the Shadow War. This season covered so much ground, and it was only in 22 episodes. I think that's incredibly awesome.

 

[Mr Light]

B5 is my number one show but LOST is better written when it comes to mystery and hint and revelation.

 

[Forbin]

Or as JMS said:

There's an old saying: to suggest is to create, to define is to kill. No
matter how amazingly I had described Kosh's ship -- and I do happen to know
what's inside and how it looks -- it would have eliminated the mystery of it.
The way it's written, you can see anything you want, as big as you want, and it
stays mysterious. It's the "behind the door" scenario: you hear something
knocking on the other side of hte door, and for as long as you don't open the
door, it could be ANYthing. The moment you open the door, and see that it's a
six foot cockroach, you can think, "Well, it could be worse, it could've been a
ten foot cockroach."

No matter what I would've described, somebody would have said, "Well, it wasn't
as special as *I* imagined it would be." So best to keep the mystery intact.

Jan

Something Speilberg would have wise to follow with his CE3K special edition.

 

[Harvey]

^^
You mean the version in which he was forced to show the inside of the alien space ship by the studio in order to secure funding to shoot the added scenes he wanted? And years later, when he was finally able to make a director's cut, the alien space ship scene was the first scene cut.

There are plenty of things that are Spielberg's fault, but that isn't one of them.

 

[Forbin]

^^
You mean the version in which he was forced to show the inside of the alien space ship by the studio in order to secure funding to shoot the added scenes he wanted? And years later, when he was finally able to make a director's cut, the alien space ship scene was the first scene cut.

There are plenty of things that are Spielberg's fault, but that isn't one of them.

Ah! I didn't know that, thanks. I'll take my Speilberg dartboard down.

 

[Harvey]

Hey now, he's still the man responsible for the ending of A.I.