Babylon 5 - I'm finally going to do it
- Thread starter tomalak301
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According to JMS (and a few on screen mentions) the station commander, regardless of rank is not only the CO of the military personnel but also an EarthGov appointed military governor with authority coming directly from the EA President, so they're already effectively representing Earth. Of course they still have to answer to the Senate oversight committee and are usually advised in diplomatic matters by a Senator assigned as liaison, like Hidoshi.
Remember that this is much more like a 17th century British Empire setup than a modern day one. Starship Captains are routinely entrusted with making first contact and initiating diplomatic relations with alien races (with drastically varying results) and the EA isn't above "colonising" already inhabited bronze tech worlds if there's profit to be had. So it's not inconsistent do have and Earthforce officer act in lieu of a full ambassador. It should also be remembered that B5 isn't the ONLY place where Earth has diplomatic contact with other worlds, they still have embassies, missions and consulates on several other worlds and several governments likewise have a presence in Geneva.
Remember that this is much more like a 17th century British Empire setup than a modern day one. Starship Captains are routinely entrusted with making first contact and initiating diplomatic relations with alien races (with drastically varying results) and the EA isn't above "colonising" already inhabited bronze tech worlds if there's profit to be had. So it's not inconsistent do have and Earthforce officer act in lieu of a full ambassador. It should also be remembered that B5 isn't the ONLY place where Earth has diplomatic contact with other worlds, they still have embassies, missions and consulates on several other worlds and several governments likewise have a presence in Geneva.
^^That basically makes sense, but I think JMS still blew it when it comes to the fifth season. As mentioned above, it makes absolutely no sense that Sheridan would in any way be able to represent Earth, given that he's both the President of the whole ISA and that he's the one who made the decision to secede from the Earth Alliance to begin with. Lochley should have been in on those council meetings, unless I'm misremembering and Earth hadn't even joined the ISA yet.
^
D Man is correct. At the very least he shouldn't have had 'Earth Alliance' as his nameplate. But honestly I think the series and franchise is sort of fuzzy when it comes to the relationship with the ISA to the humans; they're almost the same thing only no wait they're compeltely different.
Corwin and Zack, however, do (sort of) make sense. They're not in Earth Force anymore. Corwin could be a lieutenant in the ISA fleet, if only there were such a thing and I'm not sure if there is.
D Man is correct. At the very least he shouldn't have had 'Earth Alliance' as his nameplate. But honestly I think the series and franchise is sort of fuzzy when it comes to the relationship with the ISA to the humans; they're almost the same thing only no wait they're compeltely different.
Corwin and Zack, however, do (sort of) make sense. They're not in Earth Force anymore. Corwin could be a lieutenant in the ISA fleet, if only there were such a thing and I'm not sure if there is.
I'm not sure that I recall Sheridan ever representing Earth. In "Rising Star" it's clear the head of the Earth government is Pres. Luchenko and that Earth is not yet a part of the ISA. Sheridan is President of the ISA, but Lochley is in the role of station/colony governor. Their roles are completely separate, with Lochley totally responsible for the administration of the station. That point is made early on, as one of her conditions of coming on board. Sheridan is there until the ISA facilities in Tuzenor are completed.
I'll try to find some on-screen definition from the DVDs or perhaps Jan can do so in the script guides.
I'll try to find some on-screen definition from the DVDs or perhaps Jan can do so in the script guides.
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^^ I think part of your first paragraph got lost in the ether, Neroon.
Yes, in "No Compromises" Lochley and Sheridan agree that political decisions or anything on behalf of the Alliance belong to Sheridan, the rest is to be left up to Lochley. Earlier in the same conversation, Lochley mentions that the Station is to remain an independent state pending a decision by the Alliance to buy it from Earth.
Of course, we see when Lochley makes a decision that Sheridan doesn't agree with about letting the teeps form a colony, he has no problem declaring something a political issue and overriding her.
Jan
Yes, in "No Compromises" Lochley and Sheridan agree that political decisions or anything on behalf of the Alliance belong to Sheridan, the rest is to be left up to Lochley. Earlier in the same conversation, Lochley mentions that the Station is to remain an independent state pending a decision by the Alliance to buy it from Earth.
Of course, we see when Lochley makes a decision that Sheridan doesn't agree with about letting the teeps form a colony, he has no problem declaring something a political issue and overriding her.
Jan
Is there an Earth Alliance any longer by the end of "Rising Star"? Sheridan had told the colonies they would be granted independent status at some point.
Althought this isn't what you were referring to Jan, I did run a couple of sentences too close together. It seemed to imply that Lochley's being established as head of the station was noted in "Rising Star". I didn't mean that, and it is confusing. Obviously it was in "No Compromises".
My intent was to emphasize that in "Rising Star", Luchenko represented Earth and that at no point did Sheridan represent Earth. Then again, I don't know when it's established that Earth ever joined the ISA.
Althought this isn't what you were referring to Jan, I did run a couple of sentences too close together. It seemed to imply that Lochley's being established as head of the station was noted in "Rising Star". I didn't mean that, and it is confusing. Obviously it was in "No Compromises".
My intent was to emphasize that in "Rising Star", Luchenko represented Earth and that at no point did Sheridan represent Earth. Then again, I don't know when it's established that Earth ever joined the ISA.
The term "Earth Alliance" is in reference to the joining of Earth's various nation-states into a single political entity. It doesn't have anything to do with it being a multi-planetary body.
Besides, Luchenko only promised that plebiscites would be held. We don't know the outcome.
If we assume that we humans didn't join the ISA during late S4/all of S5, it kind of works, as long as you ignore the EA nameplate in front of Sheridan. This quick-fix just makes it seem a bit strange that our man Sheridan is the head of an alliance of which his own species is not a member. In the future (and the context of the show,) that's no problem, but having watched it from the POV of someone from present-day-USA, where you can't be the President if you weren't born here, it's a little jarring.
In "Crusade", Mars is explicitly defined as an "Independent Member of the Earth Alliance".
It's debatable whether this makes much sense though. Normally you're either independent or you're a member of something.
We can only assume that Mars has achieved a very high degree of internal autonomy after 2261. While Earthgov originally could do on Mars whatever it liked, Mars has probably become a self-governing entity now. Perhaps the colony's new status is comparable to contemporary Puerto Rico or Gibraltar... or maybe even to Canada or Australia within the Commonwealth.
It's debatable whether this makes much sense though. Normally you're either independent or you're a member of something.
We can only assume that Mars has achieved a very high degree of internal autonomy after 2261. While Earthgov originally could do on Mars whatever it liked, Mars has probably become a self-governing entity now. Perhaps the colony's new status is comparable to contemporary Puerto Rico or Gibraltar... or maybe even to Canada or Australia within the Commonwealth.
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I don't think that the ISA is an actual national government but instead a supra-national organization, like the UN but with more guns. It just happened to have been set up so that the executive (in this case, the ISA President) has broad authority and the firepower to enforce that authority. The member states are still independent and have their own military forces.
The Victory class destroyers were a joint effort between the ISA, Earth, and the Minbari. Part of that deal was that EarthForce got first dibs, apparently. The Rangers and the Minbari Warrior Caste would get their own Victorys as new ones rolled out of the construction yard.
The Victory class destroyers were a joint effort between the ISA, Earth, and the Minbari. Part of that deal was that EarthForce got first dibs, apparently. The Rangers and the Minbari Warrior Caste would get their own Victorys as new ones rolled out of the construction yard.
Oh right. Good catch. It's been far, far too long since I saw Crusade. I gave my DVD set to my son when he left for college last September. It's one of his all-time favorites.
Not exactly. The Earth Alliance only got the Excalibur as a loaner, to help find the cure. Presumably, it would've been given back to the Rangers once the Drakh plague had resolved itself, one way or another.
The EA funded and built the Victory and the Excalibur while the Minbari provided the designs and materials (I think the Valen was a test of concept with more human influence in the design.) The intention was that once the two prototypes were finished, they'd belong to the ISA as a supplement to the Ranger fleet and they could then start rolling more off the production line. The EA would have benefited by gaining all the new technologies, but they weren't supposed to get the ships themselves. That of course changed because the Victory was lost and the Drakh blew up the construction docks, leaving the Excalibur to be loaned to the EA for the duration of the new mission. What eventually happened to the ship is unclear (the mentions in the later conon books is vague) by my money is on it going kaboom later in the series.
As for Mars, yes they're independent as if you'll recall in late season 5, Tessa Holloran (aka Number One) is in customs giving Zack an earful about how Mars is independent now and how Earthgov is messing them around by not accepting their new documentation (passports, currency, etc.)
What being independent means for Mars is that they now have a seat in the Earth Alliance Senate, whereas before they were under colonial rule with a military governor (like B5) with no say in EarthGov policy and (I think) no way for an Mars Born citizen to become the EA President. I don't think it was ever said if any of the other major colony worlds like Proxima or the Orion Colonies voted for independence, but I gather they were relatively small settlements compared to Mars, so it's likely most of them stayed as was.
As for Sheridan's seat still having the EA nameplate in front of it, I'd just call that a set dressing oversight and wouldn't read too much into it. Sheridan is clearly not an appointed representative of Earth.
As for Mars, yes they're independent as if you'll recall in late season 5, Tessa Holloran (aka Number One) is in customs giving Zack an earful about how Mars is independent now and how Earthgov is messing them around by not accepting their new documentation (passports, currency, etc.)
What being independent means for Mars is that they now have a seat in the Earth Alliance Senate, whereas before they were under colonial rule with a military governor (like B5) with no say in EarthGov policy and (I think) no way for an Mars Born citizen to become the EA President. I don't think it was ever said if any of the other major colony worlds like Proxima or the Orion Colonies voted for independence, but I gather they were relatively small settlements compared to Mars, so it's likely most of them stayed as was.
As for Sheridan's seat still having the EA nameplate in front of it, I'd just call that a set dressing oversight and wouldn't read too much into it. Sheridan is clearly not an appointed representative of Earth.
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As I said, it's never mentioned how the other secessionist colonies voted, only Mars.
Martian independence was never about leaving the Earth Alliance. Though it's the oldest (save perhaps, Luna) and largest human off-world colony, it's population is only around 2 million (10% or so of which are non-humans) so it's never going to be able to sustain itself as an interstellar power in it's own right - not until the great burn, at least.
In this case independence is actually about self governance and the ability to have a say in political and economic matters rather than be just dictated to by a bunch of Earthers in Geneva who basically just let the Mars Conglomerate (a bunch mega-corporations) squeeze the colony for every credit it's worth. An independent Mars is on the same footing as the other member states (Russian Consortium, the North American State, France, Amazonia, Indonesian Consortium, Central African Bloc, others.)
Martian independence was never about leaving the Earth Alliance. Though it's the oldest (save perhaps, Luna) and largest human off-world colony, it's population is only around 2 million (10% or so of which are non-humans) so it's never going to be able to sustain itself as an interstellar power in it's own right - not until the great burn, at least.
In this case independence is actually about self governance and the ability to have a say in political and economic matters rather than be just dictated to by a bunch of Earthers in Geneva who basically just let the Mars Conglomerate (a bunch mega-corporations) squeeze the colony for every credit it's worth. An independent Mars is on the same footing as the other member states (Russian Consortium, the North American State, France, Amazonia, Indonesian Consortium, Central African Bloc, others.)
The Corps is Mother, The Corps is Father - The Wide Awake Edition. 
Anyone remember when I reviewed this episode before (Like several months ago now) and I said that I was barely able to follow it and was falling asleep throughout. Well, I watched this episode again wide awake and it actually improved my feeling on it. Nice murder mystery, and seeing the "behind the scenes" of Psi Corps was nice, but I still contend this episode should have come in Season 2. Coming here right after the whole Byron thing and in the middle of the Centuri storyline seemed a bit odd. The only thing going into this episode's favor is the whole possibility of war between the Mundanes and Telepaths.
Anyone remember when I reviewed this episode before (Like several months ago now) and I said that I was barely able to follow it and was falling asleep throughout. Well, I watched this episode again wide awake and it actually improved my feeling on it. Nice murder mystery, and seeing the "behind the scenes" of Psi Corps was nice, but I still contend this episode should have come in Season 2. Coming here right after the whole Byron thing and in the middle of the Centuri storyline seemed a bit odd. The only thing going into this episode's favor is the whole possibility of war between the Mundanes and Telepaths.
ReadyAndWilling
Fleet Captain
i've been thinking about watching this as well.
would i be better off watching B5 before all of DS9?
would i be better off watching B5 before all of DS9?
It's probably better to watch one series in its entirety before beginning the other series. That's just my own personal preference, however. I tend to enjoy it that way, because I can concentrate solely on that series before diverting attention to the other.
I watched B5 and DS9 at the same time, but they were still airing on TV at that time. Given a set, I would watch one all the way and then start the other.
Thanks to this thread, I shall now think of Byron as Marcus doing the Jesus routine.
Season 5 was very uneven in my book. I enjoyed Lennier's and Londo's story arcs more than any other single thing in season 5. Even Bester seemd a little off.
Thanks to this thread, I shall now think of Byron as Marcus doing the Jesus routine.
Season 5 was very uneven in my book. I enjoyed Lennier's and Londo's story arcs more than any other single thing in season 5. Even Bester seemd a little off.
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