Babylon 5 and O'Hare's departure.

[Jan]

Just like how Warren Keffer was replaced with a pot plant in Season Three.

Pot plant or potted plant? If the former, you give the Keffer character far too much credit (and it was the second season).

Keffer died in the season two finale, thus was replaced in the third season.

Oops, yeah. Got it now.

Jan

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

I thought it was because O'Hare is from New York and wanted to work closer to home? (similar to how George Dzundza left Law & Order, but in the opposite direction)

 

[Neroon]

If there's one thing I've learned over the past few years, it's that Jan is quite accurate when it comes to much of Babylonian history. She is insane, after all

 

[Candlelight]

If there's one thing I've learned over the past few years, it's that Jan is quite accurate when it comes to much of Babylonian history. She is insane, after all

Yeah, that whole 'bucket on the head' speech by Marcus in Matters of Honor came about after Jan cornered JMS at a convention.

(with the upmost respect, naturally)

 

[Starbreaker]

The story I've always heard is that it was mandated by the network because they wanted a better leading man.

 

[Jan]

If there's one thing I've learned over the past few years, it's that Jan is quite accurate when it comes to much of Babylonian history. She is insane, after all

::bows:: Why thank you! Insane *twice*, don't'cha know.

Yeah, that whole 'bucket on the head' speech by Marcus in Matters of Honor came about after Jan cornered JMS at a convention.

(with the upmost respect, naturally)

Now, now... I've *never* cornered JMS anywhere - that's all just a viscious rumor! I do believe that I've heard him let go of a resigned "Zog" upon my showing up yet one more time when/where he was appearing.

Jan

 

[Candlelight]

^ And that the J in JMS doesn't stand for Jan.

Nope. Not at all.

 

[Jan]

^ And that the J in JMS doesn't stand for Jan.

Nope. Not at all.

But it does, of course. My name is Jan M. Schroeder -> JMS



(I just know I'm gonna regret that...)
Jan

 

[Reverend]

WB wanted somebody with more acting credits since at that time Pat had more stunt credits on her resume with a few co-starring roles.

No *way* Talia/Andrea was sexier than Lyta/Pat!!

Jan

Well, she was blonde and had bigger tits; I can see a studio or network exec mistaking that for her being "sexier." It's the same school of logic that says putting stripes on your car makes it go faster or that words with the letter 'X' in them are automatically cooler.

In all seriousness though, the impression I'd always been under is that for the most part the studio (as in WB) pretty much left them alone. I'm not so sure how much of a say the network had (PTEN in the states, right?)

Indeed I'm pretty sure the inclusion of Keffer was one of the last notes JMS felt obliged to follow, hence his being burnt down to a cloud of atoms at the earliest opportunity. If that is indeed the case then I really can't see a scenario where JMS is pushed into changing his leading man against his will. Whatever the witherto's and whyfor's it appears clear enough that it was a mutual arrangement and not some mandate from on high or a sacking for fiddling with Jerry Doyle's car radio.

 

[Starkers]

Thanks for all the replies everyone, interesting stuff, even if it appears we might never know for sure!

I'm glad at least that O'Hare was able to return and complete Sinclair's arc, it would have been terrible if we'd just never seen him again after Chrysalis!

Jan, I think having seen Jerry Doyle live that I'd be inclined to agree with you about the boorish elements. He was also dimsissive of the guy who played Keffer, and of pinickity fans in general. I seem to recall him saying something along the lines of "I used to wear my insignia upside down in some episodes just to fuck with the more obsessive fans!"

As for Talia...hmm, well she's blonde, and it isn't like she isn't hot, but I recall liking Lyta a lot more. That might have more to do with me prefering red heads over icy Blondes however.

 

[Admiral_Young]

I never liked Talia and though Andrea was a pretty average actress at best concerning her acting ability. I far preferred Lyta and Pat.

 

[Jan]

Well, she was blonde and had bigger tits; I can see a studio or network exec mistaking that for her being "sexier." It's the same school of logic that says putting stripes on your car makes it go faster or that words with the letter 'X' in them are automatically cooler.

Yeah, I think that's the same manual that the studio/network execs abide by that says that everybody in TV should be young, isn't it?

In all seriousness though, the impression I'd always been under is that for the most part the studio (as in WB) pretty much left them alone. I'm not so sure how much of a say the network had (PTEN in the states, right?)

I gather it depended on the situation. It was the PTEN that made the decision, for example to hold back the last several episodes of each season and show them just before the begining of the next so that there was no season climax, it just stopped for a while.

In the case of Keffer, this is what JMS said in volume 3 of the script books:

But as we geared up for season two, during which the
network still had its hooks in the renewal process, PTEN vetoed Dory Shima, preferring a character they thought would be better suited to “bringing in the female demographic,” as they put it. They felt that the character of Dory, as described above, was “too thoughtful and not dynamic enough.”​

“Give us Babylon 5’s Han Solo,”13 they said, “someone dashing, young, brash.”​

<snip>​

But with the network dangling our second season renewal before us like a cat toy, with the clear implication that if we didn’t leap for it they’d put it back up on the shelf and that would be the end of playtime…I dutifully leapt for it.​

After that, the 'benign neglect' seems to have set in and the studio and network went away for the most part to play with other shows. JMS still had to submit scripts and keep them posted as to story plans, etc. but mostly they left the show alone.

Jan

 

[Admiral_Young]

I'm curious as to how Andrea thought the series should star and revolve around her now. I've never heard that before.

 

[The Mirrorball Man]

I'm curious as to how Andrea thought the series should star and revolve around her now. I've never heard that before.

I guess she just wanted a meatier part, and didn't feel comfortable as part of an ensemble cast.

And then she went on to play a bland character in NYPD Blue.

 

[Jan]

I'm curious as to how Andrea thought the series should star and revolve around her now. I've never heard that before.

I don't think it was quite that extreme but word is that she was lobbying for more screen time and seemed to think that any episode she appeared in should be about her. Jerry Doyle, being married to her at the time also joined in the lobbying despite JMS explaining that there would be a big arc about Talia and Ivanova but that it was an ensemble show where people were brought in and out of the spotlight.

Eventually her agent called and said that she either wanted more screen time or to be released from her contract so "Divided Loyalties" was written and Andrea was released from her contract.

It's worth mentioning that in season one, Andrea was contracted (and paid) for a guaranteed number of episodes whereas Peter Jurasik and Andreas Katsualas didn't have any guarantee.

Jan

 

[Claudia]

Very interesting thread.

Is there any information how Talia's arc would have gone had she not left the show? When and how would her sleeper-programming have been discovered then? And how does this play into Kosh's scanning her that one time in season 1?

And about Marcus - was it always planned to have him killed at the end of season 4? I always thought that he and Ivanova had a good chemistry and were geared up for romance, so I'd really like to know whether any real life issues (other than Christian's departure) put a stop to that story arc.

And to add my 2 cents to the initial comment: I really liked both Sinclair and Sheridan, but then again it was a bit too obvious that most of Sinclair's arcs were transfered onto Sheridan: Anna also working for interplanetary expeditions, Sheridan's eventual marriage with Delenn (that it was planned for Sinclair was forshadowed in "Parliament of Dreams" with that Minbari ritual). Granted, it was rewritten (especially the Catherine/Anna similarities) but still, it's too much of a coincidence to really be credible.

 

[Jan]

Is there any information how Talia's arc would have gone had she not left the show? When and how would her sleeper-programming have been discovered then? And how does this play into Kosh's scanning her that one time in season 1?

The only bit we know for sure is that Talia and Ivanova would have become an item. As far as I know, anything else is speculation but I may well be forgetting something.

And about Marcus - was it always planned to have him killed at the end of season 4? I always thought that he and Ivanova had a good chemistry and were geared up for romance, so I'd really like to know whether any real life issues (other than Christian's departure) put a stop to that story arc.

Marcus' death was meant to set up Ivanova to have a rebound romance with Byron (which is why there's a superficial resemblance between them) which would have caused a lot of dramatic tension when things with the teeps spun out of control and she'd have had to call Bester, wouldn't it? JMS has stated that if he'd known Claudia wouldn't return for season 5, he'd never have killed off Marcus.

Jan

 

[Forbin]

WB wanted somebody with more acting credits since at that time Pat had more stunt credits on her resume with a few co-starring roles.

No *way* Talia/Andrea was sexier than Lyta/Pat!!

Jan

Well, she was blonde and had bigger tits;

Nope. Pat was much shaplier. And a redhead. Go rent Knightriders for visual evidence.

 

[Candlelight]

Is there any information how Talia's arc would have gone had she not left the show? When and how would her sleeper-programming have been discovered then? And how does this play into Kosh's scanning her that one time in season 1?

The only bit we know for sure is that Talia and Ivanova would have become an item. As far as I know, anything else is speculation but I may well be forgetting something.

Talia would've become a mole within the command team, but how it would've worked long term I have no idea.

And about Marcus - was it always planned to have him killed at the end of season 4? I always thought that he and Ivanova had a good chemistry and were geared up for romance, so I'd really like to know whether any real life issues (other than Christian's departure) put a stop to that story arc.

Marcus' death was meant to set up Ivanova to have a rebound romance with Byron (which is why there's a superficial resemblance between them) which would have caused a lot of dramatic tension when things with the teeps spun out of control and she'd have had to call Bester, wouldn't it? JMS has stated that if he'd known Claudia wouldn't return for season 5, he'd never have killed off Marcus.

Jason Carter said at a convention (?) he wanted to return to the UK for work.

 

[Reverend]

Is there any information how Talia's arc would have gone had she not left the show? When and how would her sleeper-programming have been discovered then? And how does this play into Kosh's scanning her that one time in season 1?

The only bit we know for sure is that Talia and Ivanova would have become an item. As far as I know, anything else is speculation but I may well be forgetting something.

Talia would've become a mole within the command team, but how it would've worked long term I have no idea.

Given that the betrayal plot was shifted to Jack, I imagine Control would have been uncovered in much the same way as it was in the end, though probably not with Lyta's help but some other one-shot character or Ranger.
Actually I could see that serving as a possible way to introduce Marcus as if you notice it was a Ranger on Mars that got the intelligence on Control away from Psi Corps, but that's just speculation. I'm not even sure how far in advance that character was planned to appear and to what degree.

Still, we can safely presume that Kosh's data crystal would have played a part in getting Talia's mind back and from then on it's not much of a stretch to presume she'd go rogue, become Kosh's aide and basically do more or less what Lyta ended up doing.

How her relationship with Ivanova would have progressed is anyone's guess, though somehow I doubt it'd have a happy ending.