Spoilers Arrow - Season 5

[Christopher]

Which translates to: "we have no idea who he is, we'll make it up at some point."

I see no reason to assume that. If, as is clearly the case, they introduced Vigilante as a deliberate misdirect from Prometheus's true identity, then that plan probably also includes a plan for who Vigilante really is. They just don't have room for it in this season.

Besides, it seems likely enough his real name will be the name of one of the characters who's used the identity in the comics -- the real Adrian Chase, or Dorian Chase, or Justin Powell, or Alan Welles, or Dave Winston, or maybe even Greg Saunders.

 

[LJones41]

Felicity is in an arc of darkness.
You bet her mother will be involved at some point.

I really wish they would get rid of her. From the moment she became Oliver's love interest, the show has been slowly going down the toilet.

 

[dahj]

The fire rises.

A really great episode, the way they've come head to head with the villains in and out of costumes, just every scene was top notch.

I'm glad Susan wasn't fridged, and I hope Pike pulls through as well. By the way, they should really brick up that back alley entrance to the police station, or at least put some policemen to patrol it, statistically it's the alley with the most violent crimes in the city, a "crime alley" if you will...

Some highlights:
- fistfight in Talia's monastery
- Dinah calling Rene Lassie
- Anatoly being Anatoly

Curtis embracing his balls has finally made him into a useful character on the team in the field, and he's been pulling double duty generally computering in Felicity's absence.

If there ever was a reason for Thea to come back to being Speedy, her brother being abducted would surely be on top of the list...

I suspect that maybe Chase's arc will be wrapped up soon and Talia will take over as the season's Big Bad.

I hope Chase stays on till the end, Prometheus has been one scary villain, and the actor does just the perfect amount of creepy, scary and menacing it would be a shame to lose him too soon.

Adrian Chase might become my favorite DC berlanti show villain ever because a lot of his actions are reminding me of Slade Wilson.

Also, Chase's motivation for revenge makes sense, "You killed my father, prepare to die" is a classic for a reason. "You helplessly looked on as your girlfriend whom I kinda liked a bit was executed" just never had the same gravitas to it

Talia and Prometheus v Arrow, now that's going to be one hell of a showdown

Nyssa should totally jump into that fight and yell "Stay away from my husband!"

Perhaps Vigilante is the real Adrian Chase.

There's no reason to go that route. I'm fine with vigilante being a separate character unconnected to the big bads of the season. It would be either a huge coincidence or contrivance to have both of them be "Adrian Chase", and it's really not necessary considering there's plenty of other comic book Vigilantes to choose from.

 

[Kirk Prime]

No, and the producers have said they may not reveal the answer until season 6.

Which translates to: "we have no idea who he is, we'll make it up at some point."

I have no issue with that. Yes, there are other Vigilantes to choose from, but the idea of it being "the real Adrian Chase" makes sense given that the source material does have a Vigilante named Adrian Chase, and they went out of their way to make this decision.

It would be true to the comics.

 

[Christopher]

Some highlights:
- fistfight in Talia's monastery
- Dinah calling Rene Lassie
- Anatoly being Anatoly

I'm surprised Rene didn't get angry at being called "Lassie." Either he's maturing, or he's more scared of Dinah than he is of Curtis.

I hope Chase stays on till the end, Prometheus has been one scary villain, and the actor does just the perfect amount of creepy, scary and menacing it would be a shame to lose him too soon.

I dunno, I find Josh Segarra a bit dull as Big Bads go. And Prometheus is just another guy in a hood.

Also, Chase's motivation for revenge makes sense, "You killed my father, prepare to die" is a classic for a reason.

I find revenge a boring motivation. It's just so overused in fiction. And it's so petty and mindless. As David Xanatos wisely observed, "Revenge is a sucker's game."

There's no reason to go that route. I'm fine with vigilante being a separate character unconnected to the big bads of the season. It would be either a huge coincidence or contrivance to have both of them be "Adrian Chase", and it's really not necessary considering there's plenty of other comic book Vigilantes to choose from.

Of course I'm not suggesting a mere coincidence. Consider: Vigilante didn't show up until some time after Morrison established himself as "DA Adrian Chase." Maybe the real Chase becoming Vigilante is a direct reaction to Morrison stealing his identity. Maybe Morrison attempted to kill Chase in order to take over his life, but the real Chase survived -- perhaps with facial scarring motivating him to hide behind that mask -- and is pursuing vigilante justice because he knows the city's official criminal justice system is corrupted. Or something like that. That's just off the top of my head -- given time, I could probably come up with other possibilities, and so could the show's writers.

 

[Timelord79 (he/him)]

Next week looks interesting.
Will that episode be Arrow's "Intersections in Real Time"?

 

[dahj]

Either he's maturing, or he's more scared of Dinah than he is of Curtis.

Probably both

I dunno, I find Josh Segarra a bit dull as Big Bads go. And Prometheus is just another guy in a hood.

He may be another guy in the hood, but I think he's been a great villain.
This is the fifth season, but we've actually seen ten years of Oliver's journey so it seems fitting that the plot should be focused on Oliver, and that the villains should be personal and not another "destroy the city/world" type plot.
I also love that they revealed him as the villain in this episode, but he still got to keep his job and work in the open, and now they have an added complication of going after what most people in Star City see as "the good guy."

Maybe the real Chase becoming Vigilante is a direct reaction to Morrison stealing his identity.

But then you get into contrived territory, why would he steal an identity when he can just make up one?
Especially if his intent was to get into a very public position where not just the real Adrian Chase but others who knew him would be able to tell that's not him.
And even if he did steal the identity, why didn't Vigilante go after Chase then? He went after Oliver the second allegations popped up he covered up Green Arrows crimes...

Next week looks interesting.

Next week on Arrowverse: a choice of musical and torture episodes

 

[Kirk Prime]

Of course I'm not suggesting a mere coincidence. Consider: Vigilante didn't show up until some time after Morrison established himself as "DA Adrian Chase." Maybe the real Chase becoming Vigilante is a direct reaction to Morrison stealing his identity. Maybe Morrison attempted to kill Chase in order to take over his life, but the real Chase survived -- perhaps with facial scarring motivating him to hide behind that mask -- and is pursuing vigilante justice because he knows the city's official criminal justice system is corrupted. Or something like that. That's just off the top of my head -- given time, I could probably come up with other possibilities, and so could the show's writers.

I think these are some good ideas.

But then you get into contrived territory, why would he steal an identity when he can just make up one?
Especially if his intent was to get into a very public position where not just the real Adrian Chase but others who knew him would be able to tell that's not him.
And even if he did steal the identity, why didn't Vigilante go after Chase then? He went after Oliver the second allegations popped up he covered up Green Arrows crimes...

Why did Hunter Zolomon steal Jay Garrick's identity? Criminals are kind of jerks.

 

[Christopher]

This is the fifth season, but we've actually seen ten years of Oliver's journey so it seems fitting that the plot should be focused on Oliver, and that the villains should be personal and not another "destroy the city/world" type plot.

What's that got to do with Talia? As I said, we've seen her introduced as a pivotal character in Oliver's past. She trained his first teacher Yao Fei, the one who first gave him the hood and started him on the path. Five years later in Russia, she convinced him to go back home and start taking vengeance on the people on The List, and she gave him the idea of creating a dual identity so that he could be Oliver Queen again. And three years later, he used what he'd learned from her to kill her father, though without realizing the connection. That's very personal and very integral to his journey.

And don't forget -- Talia's the one who trained Prometheus, who told him who the Hood/Green Arrow was and set all this in motion. She's already the real Big Bad, the power behind Prometheus. He's just her instrument of vengeance. Which is why I think Talia is going to be the final boss of the season.

But then you get into contrived territory, why would he steal an identity when he can just make up one?

How is that contrived? Identity theft is a major problem in real life. You can't just make up an identity out of whole cloth. The government tracks identities. People need social security numbers and birth certificates and other forms of identification. Fake IDs are often taken over from real people, e.g. by adopting the name and SSN of someone who died in infancy, so that it's a legitimate number and thus the deception is harder to recognize. Killing someone and taking over their life is another way an impostor could acquire an otherwise legitimate ID.

Especially if his intent was to get into a very public position where not just the real Adrian Chase but others who knew him would be able to tell that's not him.

It's a big country. Maybe the real Chase wasn't a public figure. Maybe there aren't many surviving people who knew him. There are tons of stories where people steal other people's identities -- I can't believe you haven't come across this trope in many different forms before.

And even if he did steal the identity, why didn't Vigilante go after Chase then?

I don't know, but I'm not writing the story. There could be a number of possibilities. Maybe he's biding his time, as Morrison did with Oliver.

 

[dahj]

Which is why I think Talia is going to be the final boss of the season.

I'm not arguing that Talia won't be the big bad, I'm just saying it's not an either-or thing and I feel that ditching Prometheus after they've built him up so well just to replace him with Talia would be a mistake, kinda like Luke Cage built up Cottonmouth and then ditched him for Diamondback, it felt like a too abrupt cut-off.
If you look at The Dark Knight Rises, Talia was the de facto big bad, but Bane was also there right up till the end. This Talia is already a more developed and awesome character than the movie one, she can easily take centre stage without necessarily moving Prometheus off the board.

How is that contrived?

Well...

by adopting the name and SSN of someone who died in infancy

... because there's simpler ways to steal an identity in real life, let alone a world where moms have petabytes of data and you can hack everything, even nukes in mid air
Prometheus' plan took a lot of time to implement and is so elaborate, that the idea he would foul up on step one just seems very unlikely...

 

[Christopher]

I'm not arguing that Talia won't be the big bad, I'm just saying it's not an either-or thing and I feel that ditching Prometheus after they've built him up so well just to replace him with Talia would be a mistake, kinda like Luke Cage built up Cottonmouth and then ditched him for Diamondback, it felt like a too abrupt cut-off.

I don't see it as abrupt. Obviously next week is going to be a big confrontation between Oliver and Morrison. I'm suggesting that will be a climax to their interaction, bringing it to a suitable resolution and then transitioning into the final stage of the season. Keeping him around afterward might be an anticlimax for his character. This is the final confrontation Prometheus has been working toward all season. Once Oliver survives it, where does Morrison go from there?

 

[Guy Gardener]

HA!

Oliver just wades through league of Assassins rank and file.

Did he ever wonder why it was so easy?

It's so fricking obcvious.

The fighting style that Talia taught Oliver, was specifically designed to target the weakspots and limitations of league training... Although Merlin pwned him on their first meeting, but maybe Merlin has his own stories about hunkering down against Talia?

 

[Claudia]

I have to admit that the most recent episode doesn't really make sense to me. Why doesn't Argus capture "Adrian Chase"? I don't think that they would really care about Susan (and I don't, either, TBH). And is it coincidence that just at that point of the story Felicity is contacted by that hacker-group? The universe is hardly so lazy. So how are they connected to Chase and Talia? Anyway, I've waited for Talia to show up... very TDKR-y. Enter Nyssa and we'll have a nice family reunion...

I enjoy Oliver's arc more this season because he doesn't keep wallowing in self-pity but actually wants to accomplish something as mayor. But all those ruminating about the parallels between him and Prometheus... I don't quite get those parallels. Granted, they have both suffered losses, and maybe season 1 Oliver was more the vengeful guy, but he suffered even more losses afterwards and he's become arguably a better man, nevertheless.

I just don't like Felicity - never have, never will, and I think given all the speeches about morals she gave Oliver she's highly due one from him. The new team has grown on me, except for Curtis maybe. As with Felicity I just don't like all those overly perky characters. And where's Thea?

 

[dahj]

Why doesn't Argus capture "Adrian Chase"?

Same reason they didn't capture Damien Darhk, Ra's al Ghul, Slade Wilson and Malcolm Merlyn.

 

[Christopher]

I'd guess that ARGUS under Lyla isn't as much of a black-ops, dirty-tricks agency as it was under Waller. It probably doesn't haul people away and toss them in secret prison without extraordinary reasons, like being a threat to national security or being a telepathic gorilla or ginormous shark-man from a parallel reality.

 

[Claudia]

Same reason they didn't capture Damien Darhk, Ra's al Ghul, Slade Wilson and Malcolm Merlyn.

*g* But at least 3 of those had an organization behind them - so it would have been kind of like cutting of a Medusa's head, just to have 7 grow back in its place. And that's not the case with Chase (although we don't know more about Talia's resources, but she's so far not the primary adversary anyway).

 

[dahj]

And that's not the case with Chase

Well he is the DA, a government official and a public figure, disappearing him would probably raise some questions and might be frowned upon by other agencies...

 

[Commander Richard]

5x17...

"Intersections in Real Time" indeed.

Nice to see Artemis again.

 

[sojourner]

OK, getting real tired of that little musical flourish they do every time Prometheus does something "dramatic".

 

[Christopher]

Is this the first time we've had an episode that was mostly flashback? I think maybe it's at least the second, but I don't remember.

Anyway, wow, they went insanely dark here. When the moral center of the episode is a Russian mobster, then you know the other characters are way off the rails. I'm not sure I'm comfortable with them taking Oliver somewhere this dark. It's hard to see how he can come back from it and still be considered a hero.

That said, though, as soon as the episode ended, my first thought was, "He needs to talk to Barry." If anyone can help him find the light within him again, it's Barry.

And I can get Ollie feeling he needs to step down as Green Arrow -- it might be better just to retire and be mayor full-time. But why shut down the whole operation? Why not let Spartan, Overwatch, and the team continue without him?

I found it odd that they waited until about 9 minutes in to start running the episode credits, then interrupted them for the title card and a commercial break, then resumed the credits after the break. I can get starting the credits early because the cold open was an incredible 12 minutes long, but then, why not start them a minute or so earlier and get the whole thing in before the title card?