Are there ethical problems with Janeway's time travel in 'Endgame'?

[DonIago]

I believe the only way for Ben Sisko to return was for them to be "tethered" at the time when Jake died. If he'd just passed away in his sleep it wouldn't have worked.

Seems a bit nihilistic to believe that since the timeline's already been altered however many times you're at liberty to change it whenever you want to.

I guess Jake was being selfish wanting his dad back, and I suppose there is an argument that what he did could have altered as many or more lives as what Janeway did, but I'm still left thinking his motive were more wholesome in the end. Perhaps I'm biased?

 

[Dukhat]

I believe the only way for Ben Sisko to return was for them to be "tethered" at the time when Jake died. If he'd just passed away in his sleep it wouldn't have worked.

Well, that was just Jake's theory. For all we know his death would have reverted the timeline back to the point of the accident whether Jake was 'tethered' to Sisko or not. What's funny is that the girl Jake is telling the story to doesn't seem fazed in the least that her existence is about to be erased because of Jake's actions. So it's possible that the circumstances were different.

 

[DonIago]

Well, according to multiverse theory Jake didn't change his timeline, he just sent the Ben of his timeline into the Ben of a different timeline with the information needed to prevent the accident. A little creepy if you think that a future Ben overwrote a past Ben, but I guess they were virtually identical to begin with.

Of course, by that logic Admiral Janeway didn't change her timeline either, she just traveled into the past of a different one.

 

[Guy Gardener]

Sometimes they create new timelines, sometimes there is only one timeline that is overwritten, depending on the sensibilities of the author that week.

In Star Trek Four, the probe continued to destroy the Earth and then move out to the colony worlds. The Whales were avenged, because Kirk "returned" to a diverged timeline elsewhere and not the original timeline he left, that needed whales.

Or...

Kirk stopped the Probe by introducing it to George and Gracy, so the Federation was saved.

 

[DonIago]

We rarely know conclusively whether Our Heroes really are in the same timeline they started in during any episode involving time travel.

 

[Dukhat]

Well, according to multiverse theory Jake didn't change his timeline, he just sent the Ben of his timeline into the Ben of a different timeline with the information needed to prevent the accident. A little creepy if you think that a future Ben overwrote a past Ben, but I guess they were virtually identical to begin with.

Of course, by that logic Admiral Janeway didn't change her timeline either, she just traveled into the past of a different one.

While that was basically the logic behind the Abrams films, at the time of both "The Visitor" and "Endgame," the prevailing attitude seemed to be that everything got erased when someone went back and changed the timeline. After all, an entire episode was made about time cops (who were incredibly bad at their job, BTW) who looked for temporal incursions that would cause unauthorized changes in the timeline, and 'right' them.

Of course, they probably just ended up erasing themselves out of existence...

 

[DonIago]

But an entire episode was also made about how there were an infinity of timelines.

 

[UnknownSample]

But an entire episode was also made about how there were an infinity of timelines.

Yeah... well, that one seems a bit separate from the others. In TOS, Trek had already established a "tradition" that this universe could have parallels in more than one sense or way. First, a matter/antimatter parallel. Then a sort of evil/good parallel (which is why Mirror Mirror doesn't bear up under questioning)... So I guess this universe has one-on-one parallels, plus multiverse parallels that I doubt the previous ones (AF, MM) were any part of. Time splinter sub-universes without separate beginnings may be another, or Parallels may have been that.
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Back to Endgame...
Answering a few earlier posts... Erasing lives before they happen is NOT murder. Because they now never lived. You can't murder people who didn't exist in the first place.
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On Endgame (I really groaned at that overused title!) ... presumably older Janeway knew of all sorts of people and future developments that we aren't privy to. All that should have been very real to her. So it should have bothered her, wiping all that out... but maybe she has informed knowledge that we don't, that lets her know her actions won't damage history much.
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A lot of what Trek has been about over the decades is that sometimes you have to break the rules. A large group within fandom seem to be dedicated rules followers. Nothing is absolute right or wrong.
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I see older KJ's actions as coming out of a failing, a mis-step, on the part of older Janeway... which younger Janeway helped her to resolve. Presumably when Janeway reaches that age again, she'll have a better perspective on time travel.
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Let characters be human and have flaws. As you watch Janeway doing something questionable, ask yourself, "Wouldn't I be tempted to do the same thing?" It's easy to sit in a comfortable chair watching TV, not facing these challenges ourselves, and judge. Good drama gets us to ask ourselves these questions, about our own weaknesses. They are attempting to do that.
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Upholding a high-minded, abstract ethical point like "never interfere no matter what" can even look a bit cowardly, when faced with deaths and suffering right in front of you, that you can prevent. I would need to be reminded which specific 100 lives old Janeway is wiping out... but all time travel plays with potentially countless lives.
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On time travel altering things... I see the Temporal Prime Directive as a giant temporary band aid on a huge issue we didn't know how to address. It didn't mean Starfleet or the Federation has determined that it's "wrong" or inherently destructive. They merely went, "AAAAA!!!", and slapped a prohibition on it. It's too risky in vague ways we can't understand yet.
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Also, every day for Voyager, Starfleet, and all sentient beings was/is an exercise in improvising solutions, and not knowing what the results will be. Time travel is therefore not necessarily all that different.

 

[Refuge]

Let characters be human and have flaws. As you watch Janeway doing something questionable, ask yourself, "Wouldn't I be tempTted to do the same thing?" It's easy to sit in a comfortable chair watching TV, not facing these challenges ourselves, and judge. Good drama gets us to ask ourselves these questions, about our own weaknesses. They are attempting to do that.
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Upholding a high-minded, abstract ethical point like "never interfere no matter what" can even look a bit cowardly, when faced with deaths and suffering right in front of you, that you can prevent. I would need to be reminded which specific 100 lives old Janeway is wiping out... but all time travel plays with potentially countless lives.

You kind of get to the heart of the matter, that ethics grapples with. I remember taking ethics at Uni and being tested on its principles at a personal level. That is what ethics does, that is what morality does. It becomes personal and about behaviour not about logic. The old dilemma... you can save the human who has a cure for cancer or your father, who do you choose? I choose my loved one. It's wrong but it's right.

 

[suarezguy]

By old Janeway going back in time to allow Voyager to get home earlier than it did, the future timeline she originally came from was erased. Please explain to me how she had any ethical reason to do that.

Do you think Picard should have gone back to save Rene and Robert? If so how does saving them justify erasing a week worth of the timeline?

That's an interesting point. Essentially, old Jake erases an entire timeline as well, and I don't think his motives had much to do with the Dominion war, or the fate of Bajor or the Alpha Quadrant... but those consequences probably would have been huge, his father being a pivotal figure in all that. The future Earth (and Federation) Jake ends up doesn't look like a bad place - the little we see of it -Still he did it just for his own, and his father's benefit. Though of course in his case it is easier to identify with the emotional issues involved.

So what exactly is the difference between that and Janeway's actions? Why are Janeway's actions considered selfish/frowned upon but not Jake's ?

Jake's wasn't in the final episode (and the series Deep Space Nine did a lot fewer time travel or otherwise reset button episodes). A lot of people (especially Niners) like Sisko a lot more than Chakotay, Tuvok or Seven (even a lot of the people who like Seven thought she had been over-focused on for 2 to 4 years). "Endgame" has other characters (including present Janeway) directly acknowledging or arguing that future Janeway's actions are dubious or unethical while the other characters were pretty much all supporting Jake to various degrees (although Sisko is a little disturbed though also touched by future Jake). "Endgame" is otherwise controversial or disliked, mostly for further weakening the Borg and ending too abruptly while "The Visitor" is considered a strong, well-made episode aside from character ethics.

 

[Dukhat]

Do you think Picard should have gone back to save Rene and Robert? If so how does saving them justify erasing a week worth of the timeline?

First of all, it wasn't a week; Picard found out about their deaths literally hours before he was given the opportunity to travel to any point in time he wanted. But even if it was a week, how is erasing a week's worth of time the same thing as erasing 25 years of time?

 

[MacLeod]

That's an interesting point. Essentially, old Jake erases an entire timeline as well, and I don't think his motives had much to do with the Dominion war, or the fate of Bajor or the Alpha Quadrant... but those consequences probably would have been huge, his father being a pivotal figure in all that. The future Earth (and Federation) Jake ends up doesn't look like a bad place - the little we see of it -Still he did it just for his own, and his father's benefit. Though of course in his case it is easier to identify with the emotional issues involved.

So what exactly is the difference between that and Janeway's actions? Why are Janeway's actions considered selfish/frowned upon but not Jake's ?

We often hold those who are supposed to uphold the law to a higher standard than those who aren't sworn to do so.

 

[MacLeod]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but wouldn't the timeline have reset back to when Sisko had his accident once Jake died anyway? I thought he was just trying to speed up his own death so that the reset could happen sooner. But the actual reset seemed to be out of his control.



Could you explain that? I'm not sure what you mean by 'altered many times over.'

I'm guessing they mean all the other time travel shenanigans we have had.

 

[valkyrie013]

I agree, If Future Red was from a future that the borg was on there doorstep, or some other catestrophic thing, then maybe her changing the past would make more sense, and in that sense, the time cops wouldn't have done anything because, her being there corrects things back to the "Correct" timeline.
Better version of the show might have been this:
Voyager gets back, years past, Old red, same as the episode, but, say Braxton shows up, says there's something wrong with the future, that the borg should not be knocking on the federations door, or some other thing, and he enlists her to travel back to set it right, and they find a borg operative on voyager that makes them bypass the "Transwarp Hub" and take an extra 10 years to get home instead of them finding the hub, and destroying it. in the new future, the borg still have there hub, and are doing strikes against the federation.
So braxton sends old red back, and we get the rest of the episode we have, and bobs your uncle, and Old red isn't a villian.

Just her going back to save a few lives is just.. Wrong.. and as said.. changes the lives of millions if not trillions of lives. those on voyager, those that they meet.

 

[Dukhat]

I agree, If Future Red was from a future that the borg was on there doorstep, or some other catestrophic thing, then maybe her changing the past would make more sense, and in that sense, the time cops wouldn't have done anything because, her being there corrects things back to the "Correct" timeline.

Again, one should not count on the 'time cops' being able to do their job correctly.

 

[valkyrie013]

In the episode, 23 years pass instead of 7.. so 16 years of extra journey, 16 years of meeting new people.
So, examples:
They meet a species.. say 4 years latter in the voyage.. they deflect an E.L.E. asteroid from impacting an inhabited planet.. that said species grows, becomes warp capable, they have a gentic definse from the borg, capable of passing on said genes to other speices, borg slowly dies out because they can't find replacements.
.. In comes Old Red..
Species dies.. Borg live to take over galaxy..

 

[DonIago]

^That's my basic grievance with Janeway's decision..the 16 years of who-knows-what happening.

Janeway is just so casual about the whole thing, as though Voyager made absolutely no difference for all that time.

At least when they did something similar in "E2" they indicated the ship had pretty much been in the expanse the whole time.

 

[Ghislaine H. B. BRAEME]

Of course, there was an ethical problem with Adm. Janeway's decision to time travel but before judging her, let's try 1 minute to put ourselves in her place: this woman carried the "survivor guilt" for 25-30 years, to the point that it's destroyed her from within. An alien technology to go back and correct the course of things was within reach of her hand so, she logically seized it and made what she considered fair, not for her as an individual but for her as a leader of a crew she stuck in DQ and was unable to protect and bring back to their families.
As for her sacrifice, let's be honest, it was a logical conclusion: Janeway was so large in terms of personality that there would never have been enough place for 2 Janeways in a same universe! ).

Yes, of course, by interfering with the course of events, she sacrificed the future of her some of her dear friends but come one, look at what became Harry Kim: an exhausted Captain with graying hair (wha a gap when we compare to Janeway when she held the same seat on Voyager and God knows how her journey was stressing and dangerous -> hey at this rate, he will not live long enough to wear the stripes of Admiral!) or older B'Elena Torres/Tom Paris who seemed not ot be a couple in love anymore and for sure, completly gave up what was their first love (being genius operationals in their respective fields) and what to say of Torres as a Klingon Ambassador, while she spent almost all her life struggling to accept her roots, seriously?! And what to say about the Doctor, who is maybe famous but married a blonde bimbo (Seven's pale copy) and who didn't seem to have much in the head ...
Please, don't tell me that for you, these future doppelhängers of our beloved characters are right!

=> to get older is one thing but to turn away from what they were, no, there was something wrong!

Don't get me wrong, I don't say that Adm. Janeway was right but her action/attitude were understandable given what she has lived/experienced since the return of Voyager.
And then, here, who would not give anything to correct an event which dramatically change his/her life? I would (for ex: the attacks that bloodly ravaged some European countries these last years and which since, make us live in terror ; the almost 3 years which followed the 2016's Brexit which brought the current mess -> can you imagine that families and long friendships are broken because of it?! ;
and as more personal, the loss of loved ones which leaves me in a oppressive loneliness / emptiness -> being a sentimental, I am finding this all very hard to cope with).

 

[UnknownSample]

You kind of get to the heart of the matter, that ethics grapples with. I remember taking ethics at Uni and being tested on its principles at a personal level. That is what ethics does, that is what morality does. It becomes personal and about behaviour not about logic. The old dilemma... you can save the human who has a cure for cancer or your father, who do you choose? I choose my loved one. It's wrong but it's right.

Ethics is about grappling with the problem. There is no inherently right answer. We always need to empathize, not just with those in front of us, but those we don't even know. We always need to be logical also. All at the same time. It's hard.

 

[Kirk Prime]

I'd have to watch the Visitor again to really get a grip on the differences. But at best, bringing up the Visitor is a two wrongs make a right defense, and doesn't change the evil Janeway inflicted.

But there is a difference. Ben Sisko wasn't killed. I think that is a distinction. He was bobbing around in time, but he was very much alive. You have the right to save a living soul. You could argue that from Ben's point of view, his timeline never changed. He saw a potential future without him, but from his point of view, he lived one timeline.

But Janeway was in a timeline where everything was fine. Ben's accident actually involved essentially time travel. He kept being thrust into the future. But in Janeway's case, she just didn't like an event and time traveled to play god. Jake himself didn't time travel. He just broke the tether at a point where his father could be saved. It's a distinction.