Web of time? What do you expect from Queen Arachnia.
Are there ethical problems with Janeway's time travel in 'Endgame'?
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I've bought the first series and seen several episodes, so shall look for that.
As does Jake in (the (rightly) beloved) "The Visitor".
It's definitely meant to be regarded as controversial, it directly is regarded as such by other characters, but that seems a little ridiculous to think that a character having some hubris makes them clearly very wrong or a villain. She definitely had benevolent intentions, albeit selectively benevolent, and it's hard to see how trying to concretely help a few people as she did would be particularly damaging to other or more people (edit: well when you think about there is the issue of exposing the Borg to more advanced technology but it seemed to work out well). And arguably trying to change the timeline isn't particularly riskier and thus more unethical than taking action, especially selfish or selectively-beneficial action, now to change the present, which usually doesn't get criticized.
It was interesting and believable that as the shows got even further in the future time changing was still controversial but decreasingly so, more ethical characters thought it right.
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Did Kirk have a right to steal his ship and take it to Genesis to revive Spock? Did Spock have the right to violate orders to rescue Kirk and McCoy from Klingon prison?
Well Soran the villain was basically trying to reverse time, deny reality, even if it killed millions, there change for personal benefit was presented as the wrong thing, Picard went back in time a very little to save millions, going back much further for personal benefits would have made the film's themes and perspective pretty muddled.
What does any of that have to do with completely changing a timeline and erasing everyone from existence?
Sorry, no. We were practically beaten over the head with Robert and Rene’s deaths, and then Picard is suddenly given the chance to go back to any point in time he wanted. It made zero sense to pick the point that he did. The film’s ‘theme and perspective’ was already flawed by the writing; the decision Picard made only made it more so.
I'm glad this thread exists, because I was thinking about this actually just yesterday for some reason. Janeway is the biggest villain in Star Trek history.
What she did was not only unethical, it was maniacal. She literally wiped out an entire timeline for her own selfishness.
Dr. McCoy unknowingly saved a woman's life and caused WWII to go the wrong way. That was an accident--one that was corrected.
But here? Janeway knowingly went back in time and introduced over 100 people who died over the course of natural means, were supposed to die, but didn't. In 26 years, they would interact, meet, marry, and have kids, who would have kids, and exponentially change the timeline--all because one person didn't like the fate of a few people she knew.
Everyone goes through life experiencing loss, but when undoing that loss creates chaos, and the motivation was pure selfishness, we have a serious issue and a serious villain.
And let's not forget the hypocrisy. Janeway lived through Future's End. This episode was basically a rewrite of Timeless.
While you can't hold "present" Janeway accountable, "future" Janeway is the biggest villain in Trek history, with no one even close except maybe Nero.
What she did was not only unethical, it was maniacal. She literally wiped out an entire timeline for her own selfishness.
Dr. McCoy unknowingly saved a woman's life and caused WWII to go the wrong way. That was an accident--one that was corrected.
But here? Janeway knowingly went back in time and introduced over 100 people who died over the course of natural means, were supposed to die, but didn't. In 26 years, they would interact, meet, marry, and have kids, who would have kids, and exponentially change the timeline--all because one person didn't like the fate of a few people she knew.
Everyone goes through life experiencing loss, but when undoing that loss creates chaos, and the motivation was pure selfishness, we have a serious issue and a serious villain.
And let's not forget the hypocrisy. Janeway lived through Future's End. This episode was basically a rewrite of Timeless.
While you can't hold "present" Janeway accountable, "future" Janeway is the biggest villain in Trek history, with no one even close except maybe Nero.
Time change would/could change people's life events (I don't see how Voyager arriving early would change them, let alone negatively, for a lot of people), it could erase some but wouldn't definitely erase everyone and probably wouldn't many.
Spock's rescue could have started a war affecting billions, probably killing at least millions, it was trying to change the present, and thus future, in a way that was very risky for many for the concrete benefit of a few. Also not unethical, not clearly wrong, but definitely questionable.
I’m not understanding your logic. Janeway’s actions literally wiped out an entire universe. Spock’s actions not only did not start a war, it caused the eventual peace between the Klingons and the Federation.
A very good question. and an easy one to answer. This episode was basically the reverse of City on the Edge.
But let's look at the result of McCoy's changes,
Edith Keeler died in the original timeline.
Now McCoy travels to the past, and saves her life. Kind of cool, as she gets to live. But this amazing woman rose to a level of fame that even got the attention of the president, and sparked a peace movement that delayed the US entry into WWII. As a result, Germany invented nukes first, and won WWII.
One life changed. Millions died that did not die before. Imagine now how history was changed by the 23rd century. How many people did not live?
Another example--John Christopher is plucked out of the timeline and put onto the Enterprise. If he stays, then his son, who wasn't even conceived at the time, would not be born, and his son became the first man to fly to Saturn.
History changes.
Edith is the best example because so many lives are changed, and that was inserting the life of ONE PERSON into the timeline that shouldn't be there. And that one person wasn't evil by any stretch.
Now Janeway, ON PURPOSE, is doing the same thing, but with over 100 people.
Multiply Edith Keeler by 100, and think about how many people they interact with and affect. Those 100 people will live their lives, and have children. Those children should never be born. The spouses who married those 100 people presumably would have had different children. Over 26 years, you could be talking thousands of people affected by Janeway's actions. Over centuries, that's exponential, which is why Spock's quote, "millions will die that did not die before" is so accurate, and it makes Janeway into a monster.
It's not just the people on Voyager. It's every planet that Voyager would have interacted with during their longer journey home, for good or for ill. Since we have no idea what Our Heroes accomplished during the rest of their trip, it's possible that Janeway's decision altered trillions (or more) lives.
But hey, they didn't even have nametags, so who cares?
In the novelverse Voyager's early return is ultimately pivotal to ending the threat of the Borg, but what if it had been the other way around?
But hey, they didn't even have nametags, so who cares?
In the novelverse Voyager's early return is ultimately pivotal to ending the threat of the Borg, but what if it had been the other way around?
By old Janeway going back in time to allow Voyager to get home earlier than it did, the future timeline she originally came from was erased. Please explain to me how she had any ethical reason to do that.
Establishing that things were actually going to become terrible between the Present and the Future would have made for a much stronger episode. Cliched but passable would have been: "This is the last point in time where we have a fighting chance of holding back the Borg."
Agreed that that would have worked better. If Old Janeway’s future was a dismal and hellish place precisely because Voyager returned when it did, then having her change the timeline for the better would have been more ethical, or at least more ethical than wiping out future people’s existence just so she could get Chakotay and Seven together in their completely contrived relationship which we never heard about again after the show ended.
Maybe Janeway should have went back in time and altered the horrible writing for the majority of the Voyager series.
Seriously though, the timeline could change every single day and no one would have any idea of it, because those memories that were experienced would no longer exist. They would be replaced with different memories that would seem normal and correct to everyone. The events that happened after Janeway showed up to try to convince the younger Janeway to follow her plan may have been just an alteration of a previous timeline. Of course, that timeline may have been changed or been altered millions of time before that. The idea that the same people would exist in different timelines seems nearly impossible. The same man and woman would need to meet and procreate together. Each individual sperm cell has a wide variety of differences in its genetic material. One with the same exact DNA would need to be produced (who knows if it would even exist), and it would need to be the one to impregnate the egg. Considering there are 100 million sperm cells trying to impregnate that egg, the chances of the same one winning the race basically 2 times in a row is ridiculous; it is something like 10 quadrillion to 1 (15 zeros). And this all goes under the assumption that there wouldn't be any change in any of the DNA sequences in the egg as well. The chances of the same exact person being created if the timeline changed before their birth is almost impossible.
While the idea of time travels seems borderline ridiculous to me in the first place, even if it was possible and the same people were created, then why would one timeline be better than another? Would one be better just because the first choice a person made has more merit or validity than a choice made after having a set of information concerning the events that will happen?
Seriously though, the timeline could change every single day and no one would have any idea of it, because those memories that were experienced would no longer exist. They would be replaced with different memories that would seem normal and correct to everyone. The events that happened after Janeway showed up to try to convince the younger Janeway to follow her plan may have been just an alteration of a previous timeline. Of course, that timeline may have been changed or been altered millions of time before that. The idea that the same people would exist in different timelines seems nearly impossible. The same man and woman would need to meet and procreate together. Each individual sperm cell has a wide variety of differences in its genetic material. One with the same exact DNA would need to be produced (who knows if it would even exist), and it would need to be the one to impregnate the egg. Considering there are 100 million sperm cells trying to impregnate that egg, the chances of the same one winning the race basically 2 times in a row is ridiculous; it is something like 10 quadrillion to 1 (15 zeros). And this all goes under the assumption that there wouldn't be any change in any of the DNA sequences in the egg as well. The chances of the same exact person being created if the timeline changed before their birth is almost impossible.
While the idea of time travels seems borderline ridiculous to me in the first place, even if it was possible and the same people were created, then why would one timeline be better than another? Would one be better just because the first choice a person made has more merit or validity than a choice made after having a set of information concerning the events that will happen?
The problem with this is that we saw older Janeway's world, and it was fine. If there was a hopeless timeline where everything hinged on Voyager returning earlier, then you have an argument, but this was pure selfishness.
I saw a video yesterday that had a great idea--that maybe Voyager is destroyed and only a few of them make it home, but the reason for the destruction is that the Borg time traveled and did that because in the original timeline, someone on Voyager invented something that stopped the Borg threat. Then you have older Janeway restoring the timeline, rather than infecting it.
I have a theory on that--the temporal police exist, which means there IS a way to monitor and police time travelers. They would have to have figured out some way to know if a major change in the timeline happens. I can think of only one place where they could do that--the Guardian planet.
Think you misread me. I think what Janeway did was pure selfishness and that it would have been karmic retribution of the worst sort if Voyager's premature return precipitated a Borg invasion that wasn't averted.
Y'know, as a "Look at the good we're doing here, maybe returning to Earth isn't the most important thing after all" concept, that could have had some merit... Janeway brings the crew home early because she's lost perspective, but that precipitates a Borg attack, and the crew manages to undo it (reset button warning, but also lesson learned), having learned that what they're doing in the DQ has value.
Y'know, as a "Look at the good we're doing here, maybe returning to Earth isn't the most important thing after all" concept, that could have had some merit... Janeway brings the crew home early because she's lost perspective, but that precipitates a Borg attack, and the crew manages to undo it (reset button warning, but also lesson learned), having learned that what they're doing in the DQ has value.
That's an interesting point. Essentially, old Jake erases an entire timeline as well, and I don't think his motives had much to do with the Dominion war, or the fate of Bajor or the Alpha Quadrant... but those consequences probably would have been huge, his father being a pivotal figure in all that. The future Earth (and Federation) Jake ends up doesn't look like a bad place - the little we see of it -Still he did it just for his own, and his father's benefit. Though of course in his case it is easier to identify with the emotional issues involved.
So what exactly is the difference between that and Janeway's actions? Why are Janeway's actions considered selfish/frowned upon but not Jake's ?
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Correct me if I'm wrong, but wouldn't the timeline have reset back to when Sisko had his accident once Jake died anyway? I thought he was just trying to speed up his own death so that the reset could happen sooner. But the actual reset seemed to be out of his control.
Could you explain that? I'm not sure what you mean by 'altered many times over.'
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