Any OZ fans here?

Discussion in 'TV & Media' started by Top41, Dec 1, 2009.

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  1. Top41

    Top41 Vice Admiral Moderator

    Dec 6, 2001
    I'm Here For The Sun
    I think Alvarez said something along the lines of, "The guy was right here in Oz under your nose the whole time and now he's dead and there's nothing you can do to punish him." That was pretty low, I thought.

    Yes, exactly--Ryan and Keller are equals, and interact that way. Ryan reaching out to Toby was an act of kindness, but I don't think he ever looked at Beecher as his equal. Same with Keller--he adores and protects Beecher, but he never really talks to Beecher the way he does with Ryan. He can't plot out killing people with Beecher because Beecher would never go for that. He and Ryan never consulted with Beecher when they decided to oust Querns, for example.

    Showrunners do tend to promote characters/actors they like, or ones that really gel with the audience. I wonder if that's what happened with Robson? I'm kind of indifferent to him, but maybe at the time the show was going on, he was a fan favorite? Another bummer of missing out on the show when it was first on--it's always interesting to see which characters become popular and which ones aren't.

    With Keller, I think Chris Meloni had a lot to do with that character being as awesome as he is. I truly can't imagine anyone else playing him, and Meloni really brought sex appeal and a real sense of danger to him. I've never had much of an interest in SVU before now, but now I'd like to go back and watch it!

    Speaking of... check out this pic from the ep that Lee Tergesen is guest starring in! Oh, they're totally playing to Oz fans with that--it's a total mimic of the first time Toby and Keller kissed! And, uh, Meloni's SVU character sure looks like he'd be open to redo of that scene between Toby and Chris. :devil:

    Oh yeah, Keller was none too pleased about being interrupted during that kiss with Toby. I kind of wonder what would have happened if the guards hadn't interrupted it--if it would have stopped at kisses or if it would have gone further.

    Yeah, I can see how guys like that wouldn't be too fond of the depiction of the Aryans in Oz. But the whole thing with the Aryans is that they hate and look down upon other races... so I imagine they're not the best guys to begin with. It might have been interesting to see an Aryan who wasn't quite as bad as the others, though.

    It did strike me as kind of funny/cool that the actor's real life brother played Cyril in the show! It seems like he was or became pretty good friends with Tom Fontana, so I imagine he had some influence.

    If I watched it again, there's probably some stuff I'd skip over. I'd definitely like to see Toby's story from start to finish again. He's definitely my favorite character, and his storylines are always good. I can't think of one I didn't like.

    Me too! :lol: I love talking about this show, and watching it... I hate when a week goes by and I don't have any time to watch even one episode. :/

    Oh, too funny! I don't think I've had an Oz-related dream yet, but watch... I'll go home and have one tonight. :lol: Hanging out with Schillinger would definitely be creepy!!

    Heh, yeah, mine are a little shorter, too--trying to squeeze them in at work!
  2. stillarium

    stillarium Lieutenant Junior Grade Red Shirt

    Jan 20, 2010
    Ooh right, that one wasn't nice!

    But AFAIR Keller and Beecher weren't on speaking terms when Chris and Ryan plotted and killed to damage Quern anyway (BTW, I love that little handshake-high five-like gesture K and R did when Quern was out and Tim came back :D ) . That was the whole "You can fuck whoever you want, I don't care (and just kill them afterwards)" thing. I also remember Toby uttering some negative comment about the Chris / Ryan "friendship" when they were sitting together playing chess or something. Not to mention the thing during the reporter episode! He didn't really approve of their friendship :lol:

    Somehow, I can't imagine Robson being a fan favorite :D But his story sure was interesting and I'm sure a lot of people enjoyed watching what was coming to him. With Peter, I have the feeling the male audience loathes him because he's weak an the girls adore him because of his looks :lol: The bipolar comments are fun to read.

    True, there is really something about him. When I first set eyes on him, I didn't even find him particularly handsome (of course he's not bad on the eye either, just not THAT amazing IMO), but his aura / charisma really outweighed it! I didn't have interest in L&O in general, now that I began SVU I think it's nice to watch every now and then but I'm usually not a fan of endless series, I prefer "short" shows that really hook you, quality over quantity.
    Haha, the comments are awesome and so true! Love the picture, I read someone mention Lee guest-starring... the ep hasn't aired yet, has it?
    It really mimics that scene o,o wouldn't surprised if it was on purpose. Wow, it's been 7 years...

    I just noticed afterwards that Lee was in Desperate Housewives (I guess I didn't recognize him partly because I watched it in german and of course I didn't know Oz back then) and rewatched some of his scenes with Bree's gay son Andrew, they're also great fun :D

    Well, they were in the laundry room, I guess there wouldn't have been much of a chance to go far without the COs noticing ( and a picture of disapproving Bob pops to my mind :lol: )
    I agree, seriously... I picture the Aryans like that, if not worse. I mean, no prisoner is a saint and while I don't judge the Muslims / Latinos / Blacks / Italians / Asian / Gays - I'm not the type to differentiate much anyway (I wouldn't even know many racial stereotypes to be honest XD ) - the Aryans are a different thing because their whole belief is based on discriminating others.
    I did find it interesting that the guy Vern called claimed that guys like Robson join more out of an identity crisis. Winthrop wasn't a Nazi either despite belonging to them, makes one wonder how many truly believe in it and who's just in need of a group or a sadist in want of company xD

    Yeah, there were instances where I thought Ryan and Cyril really look like brothers, so it didn't surprise me *that* much, but it was a pleasant surprise nonetheless. You get the feeling they really love each other, maybe that's part of why their relationship on screen was so great and believable - similar to B / K, the actors were really behind it.

    Yeah, me too. With so many characters and plots there's bound to be something that you like - and something that you don't. Personally, I didn't like the leaders after Adebisi at all; like Burr Redding o_O Hernandez and Morales were okay, but I didn't care much for them either...

    I think I finished it all in a month *sweats* XD (but of course, I had more time than you I guess, holidays!)
    Oz was so addicting! I'm either a marathon watcher (when I'm hooked) or as slow as a snail when I'm only half interested xD

    Yeah, but he was kinda nice, pleasant Vern! :lol: Ohh I hope you'll have one too, more stuff to discuss! :D I just remembered I had a dream where Eddie Malavarca (the actor of Peter) appeared for a moment, too! He was the guy who checked our tickets (in that dream, I was going somewhere with friends ... I don't remember where) and I only recognized him afterwards, d'aw. XD <- even in dreams, he doesn't have much luck with his job it seems... :wtf::guffaw:

    Aww, the Oz addiction is spreading to your workplace xD
  3. Top41

    Top41 Vice Admiral Moderator

    Dec 6, 2001
    I'm Here For The Sun
    They weren't, but I also thought it kind of spoke to how Keller didn't see Toby as an equal. I mean, he didn't have any problem telling Toby that he had a problem with Toby sleeping around with other guys, but he didn't let Toby in on the plan, even though they were sort of speaking again by then--even if to just fight.

    I loved the hugh five with McManus's return, too. I was cheering as well!

    He did seem to feel a bit left out, and compensated for that by being snotty. And sleeping around, because he seemed to know that was the way he could piss Keller off. It definitely worked!

    Yeah, I can't really either, but he sort of falls into that "love to hate him" category, I guess, though he's nowhere near as interesting as Vern (or Querns, another character I loved to hate). But at least he's no Clayton Hughes!

    Do people think Peter's bipolar? Is he one of the characters people fight about? I wasn't a huge fan in the beginning, but I never had anything against him. Alvarez and Hughes I could bitch about all day, though!

    Same here. I never found him cute until I saw him as Keller, and oh wow... the man has charisma in spades! It's funny because of the two, I think Beecher is cuter (I have offbeat taste, lol), but Keller is definitely sexier.

    I prefer quality over quantity, too, but at the same time, I hate it when I'm loving a show and it ends. Like Oz... I don't want it to be over! :o

    It hasn't aired yet, no. I think I read somewhere that it airs March 3rd. And yeah, I'm sure the position mimicking the famous Oz kiss is on purpose! Alas, I doubt we'll get a kiss, but as long as there's sexual tension in the air, I guess that will be pretty good... ;) :D

    I've watched most of DH but I don't really remember him being in it. I'll have to go back and see those episodes!

    LOL, well, maybe Chris would have picked Toby up and carried him to their pod. :devil: ;) That was one intense kiss--I thought it was cute how it started very soft and then Keller intensified it. Definitely hot... damn those COs. :p

    Yeah, that's my feelings about the Aryans. The other guys might do bad things, but the Aryans have really hateful views.

    I think a lot of them joined for protection, to have a group to belong to. Winthrop obviously did it so he could stop being a prag, and Robson like Vern said... out of an identity crisis/need to belong to something. Whereas a guy like Vern is a true believer.

    I'm not a big fan of Redding either. I think he's kind of dull. I do like Morales, but that's in part because I like the actor--he's on Dexter and has been in a bunch of other shows I've seen. The woman who plays Gloria is on Dexter, too! But I do agree that no one had the charm and charisma of Adebisi.

    I'm totally into it, but work really keeps me from it. :( And there are also TV shows that I watch now that I don't want to fall behind on (like 24) so I mainly watch on the weekends.

    Well, he's a much better guy to dream about than Vern! I think I'd be creeped out if Vern showed up in my dreams.

    Hahaha, it is--I just took another little break to reply. :o :)
  4. stillarium

    stillarium Lieutenant Junior Grade Red Shirt

    Jan 20, 2010
    Hmh, in this case I don't think it has to neccessarly mean anything with his standing. Keller is mostly too sly to admit something like killing someone, even when it's obvious. He never confessed raping and killing those victims before Oz, not even in front of Toby. I don't even remember what he was actually taken in for / if there was a crime flashback, I'll have to dig.

    I loved the way McManus said "I'm baaack", must've been really annoying but great at the same time for the prisoners :lol:

    Their jealousy issues were really something else *snorts* They're really like girls, insulting each other and getting intimate with someone else to make he other jealous, only it's waaay more serious here. xD

    Clayton turned out to be really obnoxious. I liked his little crazy speech after breaking out though, he had completely lost it. Querns, I really disliked. xD I think the only ones I loved to hate were Adebisi, Vern and sometimes Ryan!

    The opinions on him sure are! When I rewatched scenes on YT, there were some awful comments about how he's a little *** (insert any cuss word) and deserved what happened to him - even the first rape, apparently - and basically agree with Adebisi and the Aryans that the rape scenes are fun. :wtf: I'm not sure if it's true but I read that even Fontana found it partly funny and that's why he wrote that quote of Vern about how Peter should compare his size with Adebisi's (could be someone's personal theory on TOm's opinion... at least I hope so!). And the other comments about him were mainly in the direction of "poor Schibetta" and "he looks gorgeous!", so the diversity was really strange to read. XD
    Alvarez seems to be really popular with the fans, just like Ryan!

    Sexy is definitely the more fitting word to describe Keller than cute. XD Toby is cute, but just like with Ryan, the hype about him in fandom is so big that it almost annoys me by now! I do like both of them, but I don't think either is so perfect like many seem to picture them. It's funny how people seem to forget they're still capable of the worst deeds and have already committed them - of course, Ryan a lot more so than Toby. IMO, the show clearly shows that Keller is a criminal; a charming one, but nonetheless a murderer... a lot of people in the show condemn him for it, too. With Ryan, his nonchalant way of plotting and killing and always getting away with it unnerves me sometimes.
    I know, I always dread the end too =( Though with how Oz went with season 6, I'm glad they didn't continue. I'd wish there was something similar though or a new Oz. XD (Prison Break doesn't nearly compare =/ ) this is my favorite part of Lee's storyline n DH :guffaw:(the next part is too, even though it ends pretty sad for Andrew)
    Bridal style? 8D *sigh* Too bad there's no more B / K =O I wish there would have been a time where they had already an established relationship and were happy, but there was always some trouble in paradise! THat's what made it interesting ...
    Most of the scenes I found worst included the Aryans, like the betrayal in the gym, the gang rapes, nailing the priest, butchering the Muslim... and Robson's gums!! :scream:

    Yeah, he was boring and unlikeable IMO. It was funny to see Morales, Gloria and also Moses! I've lost interest in watching Dexter during the 2nd season, but the actor of Doakes sure has it hard. Gloria is the only one who's one of the good guys on both shows :lol:
    Sure, work's more important (unfortunately, huh? XD) But you can look at the bright side, at least you still have something to look forward to XD

    Haha, exactly! :) I think he was probably more JK Simmons-ish than Vern-ish in my dream, thank god. (I always dread dreaming about Robson's gums though... yes, I think that story traumatized me!)
    Aw =D that's dedication :devil: xDD I had to think of our discussion during work today, too! Luckily, I don't have internet there, so I'm never tempted... :3 (I'm sure I'd follow your example of posting while breaks otherwise :D) I wonder how long we can continue to discuss the show until we run out of things worth discussing XD
  5. DevilEyes

    DevilEyes Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

    Jun 9, 2009
    basking in the warmth of the Fire Caves
    Robson was in the "love to hate" category for me - he could be funny in his assholeness, and he was such a jerk that it was great to see him get his comeuppance :devil: (does that make me bad? :D)

    re: the Aryans
    Ha ha, Stormfront - I've read some of their musings on Star Trek once, it's fun to see what people like that are thinking. I started liking the new movie even more after I read how freaked out the neo-nazis at that site were over the Spock/Uhura relationship. People can say what they want about ST09 and its supposed lack of relevance to the social and political issues - anything that can get Stormfront posters like that pissed off is great. :bolian: ;) It was really fun reading their whining over the interracial relationships and Trek's "liberal agenda", and listing all the Trek people they thought were Jews. There's apparently even something called Jewdar?! :wtf: :cardie: :rommie:

    Back to the topic of Oz: There were apparently some neo-nazis who actually thought Schilinger was really cool. :cardie: I've read that J K Simmons said he would sometimes get approached by some people like that on the street - and he was shocked when, instead of just congratulating him on a great character and performance, they would say that Vern was a great guy and they agreed with his views!

    I once read an Oz thread on some heavy-metal music forum, or something like that, that I found via Google search; and there was actually one "Aryan" guy there, who thought Vern was cool and kept defending all he did. I kid you not! :wtf: The only thing he really thought crossed the line was kidnapping Beecher's kids and killing Beecher's son, but tried to explain it away by claiming Vern wasn't thinking straight at the time and that he felt bad later.

    I think Keller is better-looking than Beecher. Beecher is cute, but Keller is handsome, and has probably the best body in Oz. :drool: Keller is also sexy and charismatic, while Beecher is endearing and lovable. Peter is pretty - and not my type. Ryan is between cute and good-looking, but it's not his looks that do it for me (I'd prefer Keller and a few other inmates as far as looks go) - he is just so charming and sexy! And Adewale is actually... beautiful, but it took me time to notice that, since I just couldn't see Adebisi that way - his personality is likable in some ways, but also repugnant in many others! The first time I realized it was when Adebisi was getting sensitive :D towards the end of season 2, and I can see it when he's not playing Adebisi. Said is an attractive man, too... Did I forget anyone? Oh yeah, Hill and Supreme Allah also looked good naked. Heh, Oz was such a sausagefest - literally. :lol:
  6. stillarium

    stillarium Lieutenant Junior Grade Red Shirt

    Jan 20, 2010
    @Robson: No, I don't think it makes you bad (or does it? :devil: ), he was definitely in the "love to hate" category IMHO XD as is Scott Ross if you ask me, I just noticed while rewatching an episode with him xD

    @the Aryans: *rooofl* I've never seen it that way, but it's so funny now that you mention it, poor babies must be upset by Spock/Uhura :lol: I wonder how people like that can even be fans of Star Trek, I mean I always saw ST as innovative and optimistic regarding people of different "races" (and species xD) working together, plus the bridge's basically multiculti lovefest! Jewdar... :guffaw:

    @Schillinger: Wow, that would really freak me out if I was JK Simmons. I wonder how he deals with it when people come up to him like that. I remember that Edward Norton on American History X was basically an *icon* to Neonazis, the film was really popular in their scene and deliberately misinterpreted (given the movie's ending, I can see how...)

    I was actually surprised the Aryan Brotherhood really exists, with slogan and all, I didn't know that! (Well, of course I knew they existed, but not that they have a special name + banner) Maybe it has something to do with living in Austria - there isn't even really a german term for them - and I'm not really that informed about prison, anyway. But the idea of so many still following this idea always seems so alien to me. I mean, here in Austria there is this infamous ex-concentration camp (Mauthausen) and a while ago there was some news about how Neonazis sprayed the walls with their slogans etc.

    Wow, and how did that guy justify all the things Vern had done to Beecher before? Given that Beecher hadn't done anything to Vern in the beginning.

    Yay, let's talk about looks :lol:
    I also think Keller's much better-looking than Beecher. To be honest, I wouldn't describe Lee Tergesen as good-looking, he's average IMO. But that's something that speaks for the actor, when you're intrigued by their character despite not finding them attractive (like with Toby or Vern in my case). I think I once read that the concept behind movies with female leads is to make the (male) viewer sympathize with her and "build an imaginary love relationship" with her or something :D
    There was this article, mentioning the actors on Oz and giving them a few attributes each and Meloni had "sexy and handsome" :lol:
    I didn't particularly like Ryan's look, he's just not my type, despite everyone adoring Dean Winter's looks it seems. Surprisingly, I liked him better in SVU, to me he looks better when he's a good guy.
    Funny that you say that, I totally agree that Adewale is actually beautiful, but I didn't see that at all with Adebisi, either! When I first read someone claim "he's beautiful" while I watched Oz, I was all like... "Whaaat? No, he isn't!" But with hair and a slight beard, he looks great.

    BTW, I loved how Oz was whether particularly too "white" or "black". Usually when the cast consists of so many black people like here, it's also directed towards a black audience, but Oz is just... Oz.

    If I go by looks, my personal favorites were Peter (especially with slighty longer hair like in season 5 / 6 :eek: ), Ja and the other Asian inmate, Supreme Allah, Chris Keller and maybe also Miguel and Augustus.

    Miguel looks awful when he's crazy, but endearing when he's hurting... I know that sounds strange, but he really wins me over each time he's depressed and calm. The scene where he cuts himself is greatly done by the actor and crew.

    And with Harold Perrineau, I liked him much better as Augustus than Michael in Lost, must be his style and the hair :D

    I almost feel like those prisoners ranking the females! (Personally, I think Gloria was really pretty in the beginning! She seemed to gain more weight though and I didn't really like her face and appearance when I watched Dexter. Sister Pete is pretty, but I'd never like to see her in a sexual way like certain inmates xD And Whittlesey, I didn't find pretty at all)
  7. Top41

    Top41 Vice Admiral Moderator

    Dec 6, 2001
    I'm Here For The Sun
    I think he confided in Toby about the killings, or at least didn't deny them. Toby knew about them and lied to Katherine McClain about them, which is what eventually caused her to break up with him. And after Keller killed Ronnie Barlog, Toby and he talked about it quite openly. It's a little twisted, but I think Keller liked that he could confide in Toby, and that Toby still loved him despite the horrible things he did. Which is kind of twisted... but there you have it. :lol:

    I loved that, too! :D I was like, "Hell, yeah!"

    Yeah, I always found that amusing, and enjoyed that there were more layers to it than that. Toby was drowning in self-hatred over the death of his son and Keller was hurt by the fact that Toby thought he was capable of hurting him... all the while still obsessed with possessing him.

    I hated Clayton right from the beginning--his attitude of entitlement never sat well with me. And then he was such an ass to everyone once he got fired from Oz and shot Devlin... ugh.

    I don't know what it is about Querns I really liked--I think it had to do with the actor. He just had so much personality!

    Wow, that's a little twisted... "fun"???

    That's probably dark writer humor. I mean, in a show that twisted, sometimes you've got to have a sense of humor... the commentaries are very irreverent, too.

    I kind of wonder where I fall in with the fans... I love Beecher and Keller, but I just can't stand Alvarez! I do like Ryan, though. Said and Adebisi are probably my other favs. And Vern, oddly enough.

    Some characters get over-hyped. I think Toby is kind of that everyman--that character we're supposed to be able to identify with. Everything Toby does in prison is kind of understandable and forgivable, more or less. The same isn't really true of any of the other main characters, aside from Said.

    Hell, I'd watch Keller run his laundromat and come home to Beecher every night. :adore: But yeah, I hear you--eventually shows run their course.

    Oh my god, I totally remember his character now! :lol: :lol: :lol: Hahahaha, that was soooo funny. I think Lee looks better with shorter hair though.

    Hell, yeah, bridal style! :lol: I wish we got to see them happy more, too. There's one deleted scene in season four where they're just chatting in their pod (about Keller killing Ronnie, like they're just talking about how their days were!) and Toby kissing the back of Keller's neck before he leaves. There's a real sweetness to their relationship and their interactions that sadly you don't get to see too often.

    Yep, exactly! They were responsible for the worst of what happened in Oz, it seemed.

    Hopefully for quite a while! :D

    Not unless it makes me bad, too. ;) I can't say I feel too sorry for him!

    So messed up... and I can't imagine how weird that must have been for JK Simmons, who probably strove to make his character well-rounded but likely didn't sympathize with his views at all.

    Wow. That's just freaky and chilling. So it was okay that Vern repeatedly raped and tormented Beecher? It was okay that Vern gave his own son drugs to cause him to OD? Man... there are some people out there with really twisted POVs.

    Oh, I love talking about all the sexy men in Oz. :drool: Beecher is my fav guy on the show--I think he's sexy, but not in an obvious way. One thing I find interesting is that a lot of times we see him through Keller's eyes--when Keller is looking at him obsessively. It's that "male gaze" thing that so many shows/movies use... and I think it kind of puts forth Beecher as an object of desire. But overall, yeah, Keller is definitely the sexy one there.

    Supreme Allah is just beautiful. And I find Said extremely attractive as well. I can appreciate that Ryan is attractive, but he's not really my type. I kind of find McManus oddly attractive--I do have offbeat taste. :)

    No kidding! Those are not fans you'd want approaching you, I'd think...

    Yeah, I can't imagine they're big fans of homosexuality, either.

    I think it's a big part personality, definitely, though I think Lee Tergesen has possibly the most adorable little snub nose ever, and very pretty blue eyes.

    I imagine that works in reverse, too.

    Yes, character-wise I so prefer him in Oz to Lost! After second season, I really hated his Lost character.

    Gloria and Katherine McClain were probably the prettiest, IMO. I like pretty much all the female characters, save for Howell... who is just one of those "love to hate" characters!
  8. stillarium

    stillarium Lieutenant Junior Grade Red Shirt

    Jan 20, 2010
    Just trying to squeeze a "short" post in here :D :

    Hmh, not denying them is one thing, but did he ever admit them? I only remember a case in season 6 where he confessed to one in front of Toby, I'm not sure anymore about Ronnie. But Toby himself claims during the last season that Keller never admitted anything out in the open, which is really interesting IMO. Despite it all he still has secrets from Toby, which is sad, but going by his character typical for him I think =/
    Yeah, I felt sorry for him at first, but that faded really quick with his idiotic behaviour.

    I just rewatched the story with his baby =( Guess that was a really good start, I doubt I would've liked him as much without it. I like all the characters you mentioned, probably like this: First Keller, then Alvarez, then Beecher, Vern (in terms of like to his character's story) and Said, then Adebisi and Ryan xD But I liked them all.

    Yeah, that's even his description sometimes (the one the audience can identify with). Funny, because I often thought that's Augustus's role! He's the level-headed one with the common sense IMO, never doing something extreme and understandable when he ODs...

    His character had a funny addiction :lol: I like him better with short hair, too!

    Ohh, I've recently seen this scene! Too bad only a few deleted scenes were uploaded, I'll have to wait until I finally get my hands on the DVDs :lol:

    Haha, I remember an interview where he said that they could've at least make him happy when he sang in drag, but he wore this horrible shoes and his "dress" consisted of 3 red shirts or something :D
    Supreme Allah was pure eye candy it seems XD Before I watched Oz, I read a manga that was inspired by Oz and the main character really takes after him...
    I have to say... I was really irked by McManus and Diane or Howell having sex, since I personally find them all very unattractive :lol: (and of course, the nature of the sex scenes! No lovey-dovey here either) I liked McManus' personality in the beginning, but I never like his looks 8D

    Yeah, I can imagine him going: "O....oookay, bye!" I wouldn't like to disagree with them on the spot, either :wtf:

    OK, now I'm curious. XD I'm in the middle of season 2 right now.

    And I had a Lost / Oz crossover dream tonight :wtf: (Kate, Locke and Gloria appeared) These discussions sure are influencing me :lol:

    Don't forget Shirley Bellinger :D another one you love to hate!
  9. Top41

    Top41 Vice Admiral Moderator

    Dec 6, 2001
    I'm Here For The Sun
    Maybe it was that Toby just knew, but he admitted to Katherine that he lied to her about Keller committing the murders, so I guess he must have known. He certainly knew Keller killed Ronnie, since he was the one who told Keller that Ronnie was going to rat on him. But I'm sure Keller had secrets from Toby.

    Obviously I don't know yet how it all ends, but one of the things I wonder about is if Toby and Keller could really be happy together. Or is Keller just a sociopath who would eventually abuse/kill Toby, too? What do you think?

    I kind of wonder how Augustus would have been in jail if he hadn't been paralyzed. Would he have been more of a badass? I really like him, but sometimes I felt like his character's role as the narrator kept him from being fully realized as a character in some ways.

    Yeah, now that I saw that clip, I totally remember his character. He was Bree's AA sponsor, who was also a sex addict. :lol: Her daughter tried to seduce him, but he ended up sleeping with her son instead! I wonder if that was a sly wink to Oz fans as well. Probably not, but it's funny nonetheless.

    I love that scene--it's so domestic and cute! I think the DVDs are definitely worth it. I love special features on stuff I'm really into.

    He sounds like such a funny guy! :lol: Poor Beecher--that was definitely a low point for him. He looked so sad. And funny about the dress--I remember thinking it was an ugly ass dress but didn't realize it was made out of t-shirts. I wonder where Schillinger got the panty hose for him to wear. :lol:

    He's just a gorgeous, gorgeous man. I was sorry to see him go...

    Hahaha, well, I certainly would have preferred seeing Beecher and Keller get it on than any of those folks, but I did think it was funny that McManus was such a big ho. He slept with practically every woman on the show!

    Oh wow--I won't spoil anything then. Are you enjoying Lost?

    Oh wow--don't know how I forgot her! She's incredibly pretty. And I just really liked her... no hatred there. She was fascinating.
  10. stillarium

    stillarium Lieutenant Junior Grade Red Shirt

    Jan 20, 2010
    That's a good question... we all want to believe that Keller wouldn't do Toby any harm, but the thing is... I'm very uncertain of that. In fact, I think even though he probably wouldn't kill Beecher, he would be capable of harming him in other ways out of jealousy or out of spite if he leaves him. There is a reason why the audience is always doubtful when it comes to Chris's intentions. I remember that when Toby assaulted him because of his son... I felt sorry for Chris, but if I had been Toby, I would've thought that he could be behind it, too. And that kind of mistrust speaks for itself about the credibility of a character's good will, I think. I also thought Toby could've been the one to stab Keller in the mailroom. Even though the short glimpses we get of the guy don't look like Beecher, it was never solved... and he knew that Chris was stapling paper...

    I thought so too! He had to stay pretty neutral so his narrations could be received without judgments, you don't want the narrator to be biased or unreliable, I guess. I think the parallel between him and Supreme Allah was interesting, maybe he would've been like SA, all wannabe-bad, if he wasn't in the wheelchair...

    Indeed :D It was probably a coincidence... Andrew was awesome XD "NOW we're even!"
    Yes and such a stupid death, too... You killed me... with EGGS! XD Similar to Peter, he came back to Em City after a while only to get written out permanently with a lame death. xD

    He did and personally I'm surprised because I don't find him appealing at all :guffaw:

    I do find it interesting, but sometimes very slow-paced (sooo many secrets / mysteries that still have to be solved) and while I dislike some of the characters (Locke and Sayid mainly), I haven't got a real favorite (It was Bones >.> And now maybe Mr. Eko). I started Lost before Oz, but only continued watching it recently, Oz had priority :D

    I disliked her at first, her poor child! But she's a really charming vamp, her and Chris should've met :lol:
  11. Top41

    Top41 Vice Admiral Moderator

    Dec 6, 2001
    I'm Here For The Sun
    I do wonder if the control thing would be an issue. I think Keller would be happy if Toby would submit to/obey him, but I wonder if he'd hurt him if he didn't. Like in the first episode of the fourth season, Keller called Beecher a bitch, and then when Toby went to walk away, Keller made a grab for him... and that was what made Toby turn around and punch him. I wonder if they could have a healthy relationship, or if Keller would always have that need to control Toby. That's when relationships turn abusive. I mean, Toby did eventually go back to Keller after Keller basically assaulted him, so right there that sets the stage for a pattern of abuse.

    Yeah, on one hand I was sitting there going, "No, no, Toby, you can't think Keller had anything to do with it!" But on the other, I could see how Beecher might think Keller was punishing him for "defying" his order. Trying to teach him a lesson. I didn't think Keller was capable of that--but then, at the same time, after Keller totally set Toby up and then broke his bones in season two, I can see why Toby would think that he was.

    I wonder about that, too! At that point Toby was just lashing out, and I think he probably did want Keller dead for what Keller and Schillinger had done to him. At the same time, the Aryans were after Keller, too. I'm not sure. Do you think Toby stabbed him?

    Yeah, it was interesting... I tend to think Augustus was overall a good guy--as it was pointed out earlier, he didn't mean to kill the cop--but I wonder if he would have been more involved in the drug trade. More a Poet I guess. His death was really sad and unfortunate. :(

    I totally loved that!!! Definitely cracked me up.

    Yeah, there have been some dumb deaths on this show. And Cloutier "disappearing" was beyond cheese.

    I think it was more his personality than his looks--there's something interesting about him. But definitely I didn't expect him to be such a hit with the ladies. :lol:

    I really like Lost, but I've been watching it since the beginning. My roommate recently went through it all on DVD and was really into it and is so addicted now! They're such different shows... it's so hard to compare. I probably have more favorites on Oz. I like the Lost characters, and I think they're interesting, but it's different. A lot of Lost is watching the story unfold and see how the various characters lives led them to where they are now (and how they intersect at different places).

    I did feel bad for her child, absolutely. And it sounded like Shirley herself had a pretty sad life.

    Her and Chris--oh my! That would have been interesting for sure. :eek:
  12. stillarium

    stillarium Lieutenant Junior Grade Red Shirt

    Jan 20, 2010
    I remember reading some awesome story... a girl wrote that she watched Oz with her boyfriend and when B and K finally made up and kissed, he yelled "No!" She thought he was being homophobic, but it turned out he had that outburst because he hated that B forgave K, he was all like "Don't go back to him, he broke your arms and legs!" :lol:

    To be honest, I don't think their relationship would be healthy, they're both too messed up (Chris more so than Toby, but Toby sure had his share of traumatic experiences and also caused some). But sometimes, the feelings are too strong, so it doesn't matter if it's "right" from an observer's POV, because it is for them. I think Beecher could have a healthy relationship with a woman, but it wouldn't be as strong as his love for Chris. There are just places I'm sure only Chris would go for him, like killing for him or confessing to the hitjob on Hank.

    I didn't think it was him, but it was understandable, Toby was desperate and confused and it wouldn't have been the first time Keller betrayed him big time.

    I don't think so (or maybe I don't want to? :D ), I actually think it was an Aryan, but it was really strange how Toby knew what Chris was doing before. Was he just guessing? Or did he spy on him, maybe? I wonder if he would have called someone for help then. We don't know if the COs found Keller, or do we? (I don't remember...) I don't think it was really him, but I do think he would be capable, we've seen his crazy / raging side.

    Me too, he was one of the "best" guys (besides Said or Bob, Busmalis) with no bad intentions or plans, but in for life =(
    I don't think Augustus would ever be as stupid as Poet, ruining his freedom by shooting someone XD
    I hated that storyline.. the final solution made it a bit better, but still...

    Yeah, the shows are 2 different worlds. XD IMO, watching Lost is more tiresome than Oz, especially when it's an episode revolving about someone you don't like. There are also eps where the main story / present isn't advanced at all.
    I remember the thing at the beginning of season 2 about finding Desmond's hiding place really annoyed me when I first saw it, it was shown from 4 POVs over the course of 3 or 4 episodes X_X
  13. DevilEyes

    DevilEyes Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

    Jun 9, 2009
    basking in the warmth of the Fire Caves
    :eek: Locke and Sayid are my favorites on Lost, particularly Locke! And Eko, too - those three are my top 3 Lost characters. I like Sawyer, too, and Sun and Jin, but I can't stand Kate or Jack (though Jack has a period in season 3/4 when I kinda/sorta liked him :lol:). I was so-so about Michael - I liked Harold Perineau much more on OZ and in a few movie roles (Smoke, Romeo and Juliet)... and then at the end of S2 I really hated him! You'll see why... though later I stopped hating him... (but it's too early to talk about that, since you're still in S2... :lol:)

    Who is Bones?
  14. Top41

    Top41 Vice Admiral Moderator

    Dec 6, 2001
    I'm Here For The Sun
    ^The only character I really hated on Lost was Charlie. Kind of for the same reasons I hate Alvarez--the whiny self-pity. It was unbearable in season one, and two I think. In season three I sympathized with him a bit more. I like Kate and I'm fine with Jack (there are times when he annoys me). I know I'm in the minority on Kate, though, lol. A lot of people really don't like her! Sawyer cracks me up. I liked Eko, and I thought his backstory was interesting. I do like Locke and especially Sayid. Desmond is awesome, too.

    I can totally get that reaction. I mean, on one hand, Keller did spend a whole season making it up to Beecher. On the other hand, I have to admit, I was wondering if part of the reason he was trying so hard was that he enjoyed the thrill of the chase. He obviously wanted to get in Beecher's pants, and I kind of wondered if once he sated that lust, he'd just hurt Beecher again. It ended up going the opposite way--I think Keller became even more obsessed with Beecher once he got that taste.

    True--I imagine it would be kind of hard going back to a "normal" relationship once you'd been with someone who would literally kill or lay down his life for you! I think Toby is pretty damaged from his experiences in jail, but overall, I think he still had it in him to be in a normal relationship. Keller I think found the one thing he always wanted--I think the gay hook ups/murders suggest Keller probably prefers men to women, and I think that's something he hasn't been comfortable with until Toby. With Toby, he found the perfect balance--a man it was socially "acceptable" to be with, at least in the weird world of Oz, but also one he could protect and care for, and who loved him back. That's pretty much why I think Toby is it for Keller--the one, no matter what.

    Yeah, Beecher was totally out of his mind with grief, and it was really easy for that guy, Elliot Yabitz I think (?) to manipulate him into thinking Keller did it. I can see why Keller was so crushed, but at the same time, you'd think he'd have a little more understanding given the situation. I think the reason he didn't was because he was so hurt by it--he'd been trying to be good to Beecher and treat him well, and here it seemed to amount to nothing. One of my favorite scenes was when Keller just yelled at Schillinger in the lunchroom. You could tell how angry he was at Schillinger for not only hurting Toby, but ruining what they had together.

    I don't want to think it was him, either. :lol: At the same time, the fact that he knew exactly what Keller was doing really does suggest it was him. I think he was angry and felt betrayed and maybe just lashed out. But then, why would he fail to kill Keller and leave it at that? And Vern was kind of gloating over it, too. So who knows?

    Yeah, so many of the guys who were in for life seemed to be the least bad of the bunch! Like Rebadow and Bushmalis... but one has to wonder if they were tougher when they were younger.

    Season two and the beginning of three are a bit slow. It really picks up after then... and gets totally trippy, but so worth the ride!
  15. stillarium

    stillarium Lieutenant Junior Grade Red Shirt

    Jan 20, 2010
    *rofl* sorry, I meant Boone XD no idea why I wrote Bones! (maybe because I used to think Boone was the stupidest name ever and my subconscious replaced it?! :D )

    Wow, opposite opinions! I was so-so about Michael too. I started watching the series with the german dub and I guess that ruined Michael a bit to me, he sounds much better in the original IMO (as does Mr. Eko). I switch to english in eps where Mr Eko / Michael have big appearances :lol: I always find it funny when they're in the same scene, like watching that movie about the button on the couch (just like every time Detective Stabler and Cassidy interact together...)

    Sawyer, Sun and Jin belong to my favorites now too (I had to warm up with Jin). I also kinda like Charlie, Kate and Jack but it's more a so-so with them, similar to Michael. Claire, Shannon, Hurley and Ana Lucia were sometimes annoying, but overall okay I guess.

    Didn't know Kate was unpopular, I thought she'd be a typical fan favorite!

    I don't know why exactly I dislike Locke and Sayid. May be their tougher-than-you attitude, Sayid's torture fetish or the way Locke looks sometimes, I somehow still can't trust him and always think he'll do some double-crossing even though it's unlikely :lol: Or just the way he behaves sometimes, like when Boone was injured... o_o I mostly take Jack's side when they fight

    I think the chase was definitely part of the reason, it was almost a mission to Keller. He did say to Pete that he's obsessed with wanting to make people to love him unconditionally..

    Yeah, I imagine Beecher would have been up to it - would've been difficult, but nonetheless... see the "being paroled" dream - but Keller... phew, I'm not sure his life had been normal at all, we hardly know something about him. Only that he was doing time in Lardner, then murdered at least 3 men and came to prison again - this time Oz - because of another crime. Keller really seems like a depraved homosexual or bisexual killer, somehow :D
    The guy (Yabitz could be right) with the dental care for his daughter... his death was probably the funniest in Oz. Keller and Robson stalking him and then... "*shrugs* Later." "Later!"
    Exactly, he tried hard to make it right... but trust is just hard to earn once it's broken.
    What did he yell? I liked the other lunchroom scene with Vern too, where Toby wanted to go ("Come on, Chris, let's go") and Keller was like "No, I wanna hear"

    That's really the more optimistic belief :lol: Well, it would make sense, why would Toby really want to kill him? Injuring him heavily and then pulling that "Maybe it was me..." would've been a nicer move :D

    By now, I definitely think it was just for Bob. His crime flashback *was* brutal, killing a man because he didn't like his work and obviously feeling no remorse... then killing Guerra and trying to kill Busmalis! Is Busmalis in for life?

    OK, I'll look forward to it! The only things I'm spoilered about are that a certain character will die X__x and apparently there'll be some time-traveling :lol:
  16. Top41

    Top41 Vice Admiral Moderator

    Dec 6, 2001
    I'm Here For The Sun
    Oh, Boone! A lot of people don't like him. I thought he was fine. Shannon is another unpopular one. Really the only one I didn't like was Charlie.

    Hahaha, yeah, I bet if I watched now it would definitely feel different!

    I might be the only person who loves Ana Lucia. And I love Hurley, too, but he's fairly popular.

    Yeah, and that's what's so twisted... basically he's saying, "I want Beecher to love me no matter what I do to him, no matter how I hurt him, no matter how I abuse him." I'm not sure he really changed much in the third season, honestly--it was a challenge, and in the end I think it was a combination of wearing Beecher down and saving him from Schillinger that did it. Ironically, Said--who Keller wanted to kill!--was a big help, because it was him who told Beecher that he needed to forgive both Keller and Schillinger. And it was a big deal for Beecher that Keller saved him from Schillinger--I think that's what convinced him that Keller was sincere.

    There's a big difference between them: Keller's a killer and Beecher isn't. Beecher has killed someone by accident and another in self-defense, but he's still more or less a normal guy in terrible circumstances. Whereas Keller truly has a darkness in him, an urge to kill. We don't know much about Keller outside of Oz, other than that he has a fair amount of blood on his hands. Which is what makes me wonder--could he really have a happy life with Toby, or would those urges just resurface, causing him to kill again... and maybe hurt or kill Toby.

    I guess I'd like to think he would never actually kill Toby, but I could kind of see him getting abusive.

    That was so funny! Two people came to kill him and the guy was so scared he just dropped dead. That was truly the funniest Oz death--one of the good ones for sure.

    Especially given that Keller specifically went about breaking down Beecher's walls and winning that trust--only to betray Beecher by brutalizing him with the person who hurt Beecher the most. Aside from raping Beecher--and I'm assuming he and Vern didn't do that to Beecher, because I don't think Beecher could have ever forgiven that--I'm not sure what they could have done to him that would have been worse.

    After Keller broke up with Beecher and either after or before Yabitz, he chewed Schillinger out in the cafeteria. I can't remember exactly what he said. I really need to rewatch the middle episodes of season four--I watched them all at once while building bookshelves and didn't pay as close attention as I could have.

    True--I think Toby just wanted to strike out and show Keller he meant business and that he wouldn't let Keller take advantage of him again. Beecher let his guard down and got hurt... so he started to act sinister crazy and grew one of his crazy beards again.

    Good point about Rebadow. I can't remember how long Busmalis is in for... I think it was for a long time though. He's not a young guy--even a 20 year sentence could theoretically be the rest of his life!

    Which death? And yes, time traveling becomes quite a big part of the show.
  17. stillarium

    stillarium Lieutenant Junior Grade Red Shirt

    Jan 20, 2010
    No wonder Shannon's unpopular (I did like her now and then though), but I'm surprised about Boone. IMO, he always tried to do the right thing ( looking out for Shannon, making him useful etc) and it ended so badly for him...

    Hurley's popular? Another surprise xD
    I'm generally a bit tired of Michelle Rodriguez, all the roles I've seen her play are pretty much the same! I detested Ana Lucia until the episode about her (I liked her in the little flashback with Jack before that too).
    Yeah, I do see why people would call it kind of a stockholm syndrome and not wanting Toby to stay with Chris. =/
    Right, I think it's in Keller's nature that he couldn't lead a normal life. So far he's showed us that he's a real sociopath and his inner turmoils (killing in general, killing gay men, wanting to kill a part of himself with them, wanting to be loved, the need to control and manipulate, the tough attitude and self-loathing...) a psychologist would have all hands full with him. xD
    Yeah and even after Beecher told him he's reluctant to trust =( no wonder after Schillinger.. I'm sure Keller didn't lie when he said that trusting someone is hard for him, too. I'm not even sure he trusted Toby fully. I have the feeling he's pretty paranoid.
    Yup, the worst must've been lying in the hospital bed for weeks until it healed, not being able to move or do anything, just plenty of time to think about his betrayal..

    OK, I don't remember that at all, I'll have to rewatch eventually too. I looked at some scenes from season 1 and 2 and I was actually surprised at how different the characters looked. Ryan with full hair and then without hair, Beecher...

    xD if you compare this [​IMG]
    and this [​IMG] :lol:
    or Schibetta here [​IMG] (nice B / K kiss there too XD) and here [​IMG] :eek: looks thinner and beautified, in both cases xD

    Yeah... it's like with Nino, 130 years and up for parole in 60 (?) xD might've as well said life.

    Lost spoileeer:

    Mr. Eko X__X When I looked around about Oz there was a board where someone casually mentioned how Adebisi's character got offed in Lost >_>
  18. Top41

    Top41 Vice Admiral Moderator

    Dec 6, 2001
    I'm Here For The Sun
    I just watched the third episode of the sixth season.... NOOOOOOOO!!! :( :( :( SAID!!!!! :( :( :( I'm sorry, how did that guy get a gun in?? And why?? I hope we're going to find out why. Every episode of this season ends on such a depressing note. :( :( :( I loved Said--it feels like such a random and pointless way to kill him. Why??? :( :( :(

    Cyril's execution looming is really sad, too. It seems ridiculous to me that they would execute someone who is so clearly not all there mentally. Why he isn't in the psych ward is beyond me. :(

    On a happier note--how awesome is it that Beecher got paroled? :D Yay, finally something happy! I loved his goodbye with Keller, and you could tell Keller was really struggling to be happy for him. I can't even imagine how Keller feels... it probably seems like he's losing the one good thing in his life. I'm glad Beecher will be involved with his appeal.

    I really wonder who killed that mayor. I'm inclined to think it was either Vern or Devlin, and not Beecher, but I'm guessing we'll never find out. Anyone else have any theories?

    Not so into the telemarketing plotline at all.

    I guess Brass finally got his revenge on Morales. I wonder if there are going to be any repercussions for that.

    Bob and the librarian are kind of cute, and I am curious to see what Norma's explanation is for blowing off her wedding to Busmalis and turning up pregnant.

    I'm still damn depressed about Said. :( :( :(

    It was in a way--as either DevilEyes or Timewalker (sorry, can't remember exactly who! :o ) said earlier in the thread, Beecher does seem to suffer from battered wife syndrome when it comes to Keller. And the way Keller loves him/treats him definitely fits the pattern of an abusive husband in some ways.

    Goodness, no kidding! Though the one who tried, Sister Pete, ended up getting manipulated by him so I wonder if anyone could get through the tangled web of lies/manipulations he weaves. He seems to have found what he wanted in Beecher, and I wonder if Beecher loving him back would be enough to make him want to strive to be better... or if he's even capable of that in the long run. I'd like to think so, but it's hard to tell, really.

    Again, fitting the pattern of the abusive husband... I think Keller only trusted Toby to a point, and what he needed to trust him was to control him. And with Toby, I think he was abused so badly by Schillinger--and then Keller turned on him--that it was probably difficult for him to trust Keller completely. But in the end, Toby is a pretty sweet-natured person, and I think once Keller won him back in season four by confessing to Hank's murder, he won Toby's trust back, too.

    Yeah, poor guy... I felt so bad for him when we saw him with his arms and legs in the casts, lying in the hospital bed so obviously devastated and enraged.

    Amazing how much they changed over the years! Toby looks tougher--it's obvious the mistreatment and danger in Oz has taken its toll on him. Schibetta not so much--if anything he looks younger and more vulnerable with the longer hair!

    Oh, and just found out/was reminded in this last episode that Busmalis has 12 more years on his sentence.
  19. stillarium

    stillarium Lieutenant Junior Grade Red Shirt

    Jan 20, 2010
    You tell it :( His death was so sudden and unnecessary. I mean, how the hell did he get the gun in and why was he killed like that? Pretty anti-climatic. I liked how Arif reacted though (and later Toby and Omar), you could really tell people cared for him and were devastated by his death. I love how Arif and Said came a long way, had their issues etc but in the end Arif really loved him and stood to his side :(
    After Said's death, the show was very boring and unpleasant to me, I didn't like how they solved Cyril and Keller's dilemma, either.
    Unfortunately, it's not so far off. It's ironic that the real murderers without remorse like Hoyt and Bellinger got commuted to life but he one with the good heart who's like a child has to die. o_o
    Yes, Keller is really struggling with himself... you'll have to watch the next episode soon!! XD
    My guess is Devlin, then Vern and then Beecher! I don't think it was Beecher and Vern was disrespected, but it was most important to Devlin. Didn't the guy who did the deed belong to Devlin's influence? IDK...
    I wonder if they ran out of ideas...

    Oh god, I hated that scene, one more instance where the COs were as bad as the inmates. I didn't expect Murphy to participate!
    The librarian totally reminded me of an english teacher I once had. XD

    It's pretty sad, but if you think about it... who was Sister Pete able to help at all in the end? She ended up being manipulated by Keller, all her interaction sessions ended badly and Peter... well. I was surprised to read that people actually thought he was able to meet his wife thanks to the counseling. It was always pretty clear he wanted to meet her to give her the rosary for the curse, Pete even said something like "I have to say I'm surprised. You refused to see her all these months an now all of sudden you want to meet her?" Was there anyone else? X'D Mukada had at least helped Miguel! :lol:

    He must have a big heart to forgive Keller, I'm not sure if I had been able to after all he's done!

    Yes, Toby definitely changed for the better, from nerd to crazy beard to tough/normal. I also thinks he looks the best with the short hair in the later season, like on that picture.

    I think Peter's change to look more vulnerable also makes sense, he was in the psyche ward for years and after his return he's mostly scared and except for some moments not so cocky/tough anymore.

    BTW, I loved the scenes with Beecher and Pancamo about the hit. Really nice of Pancamo to take the blame, Beecher didn't even hold up his end of the bargain :D (killing Vern)
    There's one in ep 2 of season 5 where they talk about it in Pancamo's pod and Schibetta who just came back is lazing around in the background, eating a orange and reminding me of a child :lol: Just noticed with a rewatch how random that is, there are also often other funny prisoners in the background... like sometimes the neighbours watching the pod the camera is on, Cyril doing that thing with his cheeks or Toby dancing crazily during the riot! :D
  20. Top41

    Top41 Vice Admiral Moderator

    Dec 6, 2001
    I'm Here For The Sun
    Do we ever get a good explanation of why Said was killed? Do we find out who that guy was and why he killed Said? It just felt so random and out of the blue. I don't mind sudden deaths, but if it happens to a main character, there better be a damn good reason for it, and an explanation. :( Poor Arif, and yeah, I can't imagine either Toby or Omar taking this well. :( I loved how Toby said goodbye to Said and Sister Pete. In many ways, Said was his best friend in jail. He's going to be crushed. :(

    Oh, that's not good. :( I'm guessing one or the other, either Cyril or Keller, is actually going to be executed.

    Yeah, exactly. You can tell he just doesn't really get what's going on. It's very sad. :(

    I'm hoping I can watch tonight! Depending on how much work I get done. But yeah, given how obsessed Keller is with Toby, I can't imagine he'll be able to deal with not having him in Oz with him. But then, the last time Toby was up for parole, Keller told him to run and stay away from him, so maybe he'll be able to handle it. Though if Toby is handling his appeal, maybe not. I guess we'll see!

    My guess would be Devlin, too. I don't think Beecher would jeopardize his parole over killing the mayor--if he was going to have someone killed, I'd think it would be Vern himself. But I think he was ready to leave Oz behind and didn't want to put that in jeopardy for revenge. As for Vern, he was crushed, but I don't know that he'd actually kill the guy. The man who committed the murder had actually talked to Vern when Vern was leaving the mayor, so that's what definitely makes Vern a top suspect. But I think it was Devlin, too.

    Me neither! Especially since Murphy is so moral most of the time. But I imagine the COs stick together much of the time.

    I think Sister Pete helped Toby, definitely. First when he was on drugs and then with the interactions. Maybe she didn't help him as much as some others did, but I feel like she did have an influence. Keller wasn't really seeing her for help--his only purpose was to get Beecher back. And she tried with Peter!

    I feel like Mukada's attempts with Miguel were much more futile. That was part of what made me hate Alvarez--what a shit he was to Mukada. He didn't help him during the riot, he attacked him in solitary when Mukada brought him a sandwich and he took him hostage after blinding Rivera. Mukada was waaaaay too patient with Alvarez IMO.

    That's the thing with Beecher--he does have a big heart. He's capable of forgiveness for even the most horrible transgressions. I imagine that's part of why Keller loves him so much... I doubt he's ever met anyone as thoroughly good as Beecher is.

    Yeah, I think the third and beginning of fourth, and the sixth season are the best looks for him. The crazy beards are not hot! :lol: And the long hair in season five was a little much, though sometimes it looked good.

    Yeah, definitely--I'm sure it reflected how he was feeling on the inside.

    Agreed. I forget--did Beecher promise to kill Vern? I thought he just paid Pancamo. And then when the body was found, Pancamo said he'd take the blame because he'd specifically promised Beecher the body would never be found. I thought it was just a monetary transaction on Beecher's part.

    I love watching what everyone is doing in the background! It's funny--someone said on one of the commentaries that the primary actors pretty much had to be in the background for a lot of the scenes. It's fun to randomly spot one of them in another character's scene.

    And I loved Beecher's crazy dancing during the riot! It was so random and cute! :lol: Totally showed how he definitely was detached and didn't really care what happened. But his visit to Vern, and his threat to screw up his parole definitely showed he knew what was going on and wasn't as crazy as he seemed.
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