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Another Lit Wish List Thread

So, assuming that we're free to declare certain lines to be in error, what if we say that Kirk actually meant to say was Monarchy rather than Democracy in Errand of Mercy. There's exactly as much evidence for eliminating that line as there is for swapping Federation and Starfleet in Pike's statement in ST09.

Bullshit. There's far, far more evidence that the Federation is a democracy than that it's an "armada." For one thing, the name: "United Federation of Planets." Not "United Federation of Starships." Planets can't be an armada.

And that's to say nothing of references to democratically-elected Federation Presidents; to Federation opinion polls; and to Starfleet constantly taking orders from the President and Council, rather than being treated as a co-equal branch.

That's probably the biggest argument against the idea that Starfleet is a branch of the government and that the Federation and Starfleet are the same thing: Starfleet has never, ever been treated as though it's co-equal with the Council and President. It has always taken orders from them.

The problem is that everyone assumes that we've got the perfect system of government, or at least, the absolute best we can currently hope for. If we knew of a better system, we'd be using it already.
Well, first off, I'd much rather see the United States adopt a semi-presidential system like what France has than its current constitutional framework: The democratically-elected President is in charge, and appoints a Prime Minister to administer her policies, but if the Parliament is controlled by the opposite party, she has to appoint a PM from that other party. So you get the benefits of both U.S. presidentialism and of Westminster parliamentary systems.

Secondly: I think the issue here is, you're focusing on the issue of constitutional frameworks -- legislature, executive, judiciary -- when that's not really the only thing that defines a system. I already pointed out numerous ways the Federation's systems would be fundamentally different from our own, outside of the constitutional framework.

Should we assume that interstellar corporations buy and sell candidates support as easily as they do today?
If the Federation is worth a damn, corporations would all be banned and all political campaigns would be publicly-funded. ETA: I'd hope that all or most businesses in the Federation would also be employee-owned co-operatives. End Edit.

Are the People of the 23rd & 24th century as frustrated with the petty bickering between political parties?
That's a matter of overall political culture, rather than constitutional framework, which is what we've been focusing on. My suspicion is that, to some extent, people will always be frustrated by bickering between political parties, because people will always have conflicting ideas about what policies society should adopt and will always get frustrated that other people disagree with them.

The real question is, will that frustration reach the level it has in the modern world, where the sense the public gets is that the bickering is getting in the way of developing effective policies, and preventing the other party from gaining any advantages or power is more important than serving the people. I would argue that this is a function of increased political extremism and classism created as part of a long-term movement to redistribute wealth to the elite, with the opposing forces becoming all the more radicalized in opposition to that movement. (Your mileage on my analysis may vary.) In that regard, no, a Federation that exists in a state of abundance and lacks poverty or economic classism would probably not feature such an extreme level of partisan dysfunction.

Have we simply transplanted our own system into the future and slapped a light coat of paint and a couple of peel and stick labels to it?
Well, considering how many times I've essentially argued, "But the Federation is supposed to be better than that!, I certainly would argue that that's not a fair characterization of my arguments.

In regards to the Federation being based, at least in spirit of the UN, that was the original feeling that Trek was going for. Different races instead of different countries but coming together to work out their differences as an alternative to war and to work together to improve life for everyone.
Well, yes and no. As I've argued previously, even from the very beginning, the Federation, while based in part on the U.N., was not based solely on it. The Federation, from the very beginning, has always been depicted as a sovereign state in possession of its own military in the form of Starfleet, and of its own government in the form of the Federation Council. The United Nations is many things, but it is not a sovereign state, it does not have its own military, and it does not have a government. So while the U.N. has always been a key influence on the depiction of the Federation, the waters have always been more muddied than that; it's clearly also always been based in part on liberal democracies, too.

Does that mean we should disband it and go back to forming petty power blocks and getting into wars over who's god has the bigger genitals?
"Go back?" Please. Forming petty power blocks and getting into wars over whose god has the bigger dick never ended. The U.N. is just a way to channel that and regulate it, and to legitimize the dominance of less-powerful countries by more-powerful countries. But it's not a world government, and never was.

I'm not saying the U.N. should be disbanded, either. U.N. agencies like UNICEF do amazing work and save millions of lives every year. And the international system needs a universal intergovernmental organization to channel and regulate the international dick-waving contests that define international relations. But let's not kid ourselves about what the United Nations is, either.

Sad but true. Democratic elections for the judicial branch are very ineffective.
Am I to take this that you don't support having 1/3 of the government being selected by the people? What other way would you suggest? Having them selected by someone else? Who would decide?
My personal sense is that having the judiciary be nominated by the democratically-elected executive and ratified by the democratically-elected legislature is a good compromise between trying to keep the judiciary from being too politicized and trying to make sure there's some democratic accountability and mandate to their holding office.

Requireing all alien civilizations to follow 20th century Earth governing structures sounds like imperialism.
My sense was more along the lines that the basic famework -- democratic elections, an executive, and a legislature -- would most probably have evolved in parallel on all of those worlds, anyway. Think of it as being roughly similar to parallel evolution: Isolated groups developing similar traits to meet paralleled challenges.

"You'll do things exactly like we do or you cannot join our alliance and we'll prevent you from spreading beyond your home plant"
I don't think it's unreasonable for the Federation to require a foreign culture to adopt certain aspects of its culture before it lets them into the club. The Federation doesn't have any obligation to let anyone in, after all. But neither should it be coercing people into joining. And who said anything about preventing anyone from spreading beyond their home planet?
 
I think that's particularly flimsy evidence that's not backed up by anything. In particular. President Jaresh-Inyo in DS9 clearly wasn't wearing any medals, even if President Hiram Roth in ST4 was. So we can't conclude anything about those medals.

If you're referring to the UFP medallions that most people in the TVH Council Chamber scenes were wearing, those were explained in some behind-the-scenes material as being visitors' badges, essentially -- they were worn to show you were authorized to be there.




Could, maybe, possibly, sure. Could.

But you've also got to ask yourself:

Why?

Why would the peoples of Earth, Vulcan, Andor, Tellar, and Alpha Centauri create and consent to a system that limits their democratic input into the selection of the President? Why wouldn't you want a direct, popular election?

I know this isn't what you're asking, but direct election undermines democracy by giving all the power to the majority. It ensures that minority voices will never have a say. That's why we have an electoral college in the US. If you break it down into a lot of little elections by state, by region, by neighborhood, then it balances things out. A group that's a minority in one region may be a majority in another. And just by general statistical principles, the smaller the number of voters in a given election, the higher the probability that a single individual's vote will be decisive. The goal of democracy is not to give all the power to the biggest majority and leave everyone else powerless, but to give as much possible power to each individual. And for that, you need a lot of little elections rather than a single big one.



And, further, it's not like there's a single set of Jurors that determine the guilt or not-guilt of every single person on trial in the United States; each Juror is charged with determining the guilt or not-guilt of the accused, based upon evidence admitted to the Court by the Judge, under the Judge's instructions of how to proceed, and then goes back to his or her life. It's a very different, much more limited, much more supervised, situation.

Well, who's to say this legislature wouldn't be supervised? How about a bicameral system with one house chosen as discussed from among the general population and the other consisting of more experienced professional legislators? (Which I believe is pretty much the form the Martian government took in Kim Stanley Robinson's Mars trilogy, which I strongly recommend. He explains the principles a lot better than I can here.)


The first problem with that idea, as I said before, is that legislating effectively requires a set of skills not equally distributed amongst the population; the people should be the judges of who is qualified, not random chance.

Jury service isn't random chance either. Jury candidates are summoned from the general public, but there are a lot of factors that go into determining whether they're eligible to sit on a given jury. In this proposed citizen legislature, there might be a similar vetting process.


The second problem with that idea is that when you have a large population, it effectively becomes impossible for every citizen to serve a term as a legislator; there are just too many people and not enough time for everyone to serve before they die.

So? It's not like everyone's required to serve, just that everyone's potentially in the pool and the selection is unbiased. It's like that with jury service too. I don't know if you've been called for jury service yet, but it's not about being summoned to sit on a particular jury; it's about being part of a pool of jurors who might be called to sit on a jury if they're needed.

People treat jury service as something to resent or fear, but I enjoyed it. I'd come in, spend a few hours reading or working on my novel, then get sent home once they decided they wouldn't be needing any more juries that day, and I got a check sent to me at the end of each of the two weeks. I literally got paid just for showing up. There was one time when I was part of a group called for a jury just before lunch, but as is so often the case, the prospect of facing a jury convinced the involved parties to settle or take a deal or whatever, and we were let go before I ever stepped into a courtroom.


The third, and most fundamental, problem with that idea, however, is this:

No one elected them.

You're arguing that someone should be able to hold office and make law without the consent of the governed. That he or she should be able to hold office and make law with no democratic mandate.

But they are the governed. They're chosen by lot from the general population, they serve for a year or two, then they're replaced by another batch chosen by lot from the general population. Collectively, over time, it's the people themselves who are making the laws that affect their own lives. That strikes me as being a lot more representative of the people's will overall than just electing the richest and most photogenic people with the best fundraising skills.

Democracy isn't magic. It's got as many flaws and potentials for abuse as any other system of government. It's better than most of the known alternatives, but that doesn't mean it's smart to cling to it as a religious dogma and refuse to consider whether blending it with other approaches might produce a more functional and fair system.


Expanding that set of eligible office-holders to the entire population rather than just a plutocratic elite doesn't actually make it democratic, since you still have people holding office without that individual's holding office being the clear will of the people.

That's really dangerous, really scary. What if someone like Jared Laughtner had been randomly selected to serve in Congress, for instance? Or David Duke? Or someone with severe mental retardation? Or just someone with a really poor grasp of economics, or foreign policy?

Then they'd be outweighed by the dozens or hundreds of other people sharing the legislature with them (as well as the other, more conventional chamber of the legislature, in the Robinsonian model), and they'd be sent back home when their term ended. They'd only be in service for a single legislative session, and then they'd be done with government.

And dude, we have had plenty of racists in the US Congress. And plenty of idiots who got there with family money or connections. And lots and lots of people with absurdly bad ideas about economics and foreign policy. Our democratic system produced Joe McCarthy, and kept him in power for a long, long time. At least in this proposed model, nobody is kept in office long enough to do any lasting harm.



So, in other words, unelected advisers would have actual power and setting policy, with the randomly chosen citizen as a figurehead?

How is that democratic?

You're making a caricature of this, and that's beneath you. "Citizen?" Singular? What the hell? I'm not talking about picking one person to be king, I'm talking about one house of the legislature consisting of a large number of individuals selected by lot from the general population, for a single term at a time.

Look, just read the Mars trilogy.



Fascinating! Can you give us a hint as to who some of those Members were in 2270?

I don't remember that much of the list offhand, and I'm too tired to go to the trouble of opening it, but I included several of the "Journey to Babel" background species and associated a couple of them with pre-existing names of Federation member worlds.


True. Though, to be fair, that does present a reasonable question about the nature of Federation democracy. If we assume that most Federation Members have more or less an equal population, it's all good -- but if you have a situation where the typical Federation Member has, say, 6 billion citizens, but Members like Deneva suddenly have maybe 1 million or fewer, you basically have a situation where a Denevan Federate's vote is much more influential, much more determinative, than, say, a United Earth Federate's.

That's why, like I discussed before, you don't have a single planetwide election, but a bunch of local elections whose cumulative results determine the winner. That way everyone's more fairly represented.


(A similar situation exists with the United States Senate today, where the vote of, say, a citizen of Wyoming is much more influential than the vote of someone from California, because there are so many more Californians than Wyomingites.)

Which is why we have both a Senate elected by state and a House elected by population -- as a compromise between the Founders who wanted the states to be equally represented and those who wanted the individuals to be equally represented. Checks and balances -- that, far more than democracy alone, is the key to fairness.


In the canon? It hasn't. I'm making that assertion, right now, because if the Federation does not make liberal democracy a requirement for Membership, then it's a worthless union. Liberal democracy is the only legitimate form of government.

I think that's a very narrow-minded attitude. It may be one of the most effective ones we've managed to cobble together to date, but it's got a lot of flaws, and we shouldn't rule out the possibility that someone could invent a better one in the future. Things like this shouldn't be treated as matters of ideology and dogma. We should be open to finding whatever system works best based on evidence, not on rigid ideology.

Like I said, checks and balances are the key. Democracies without adequate checks and balances can easily become unjust and tyrannical -- a democratically elected president may be free to dissolve the legislature and suspend due process at a whim. Whereas a monarchy with strong checks on the monarch's power can be quite fair, at least in comparison to the aforementioned democracy. Heck, the whole reason democracy is a relatively good system overall is because it theoretically keeps too much power from getting into the hands of any one person or group. That's what checks and balances do as well. And democracy can be subverted so that it does give power in an unbalanced way, and that's when you need to bring in the checks and balances.


There is absolutely no such thing as a benevolent dictatorship. The entire concept is self-contradictory and absurd.

Well, that depends. Do you mean a dictator in the modern sense, or in the original Roman sense of a magistrate given absolute power in an emergency, like Cincinnatus?


The second thing I'd ask is: On what basis would such candidates be chosen? By whom? Who gives those people the authority to determine who may stand for election? I haven't read Imperial Earth, but that sounds very ominous to me.

I think in the novel the candidates were chosen by a computer based on an unbiased assessment of their qualifications. But it's been a very long time since I read the book.


I don't think that's a reasonable argument at all. Plenty of people want power for specific purposes, not just for the sake of having power.

But personal political ambition does blind a lot of people from serving the good of the public. Just look at members of Congress who deliberately scuttle valuable reforms or deliberately force the government to shut down just so they can make the party in power look bad and improve their chances of gaining power in the next election. Our current system is terribly corrupt and dysfunctional, and it's largely because of ambition and self-interest trumping responsibility.

Of course I'm not saying we should adopt the Imperial Earth system immediately. But it's worth acknowledging that there are serious flaws with the system we have now. There's always room for improvement, so it's important to keep an open mind.


Actually, his exact line was, "I never sought this job. I was content to simply represent my people on the Federation Council. When they asked me to submit my name for election, I almost said no. Today I wish I had."

So we don't know who asked him to run -- only that "they" did.

Given the sentence structure, the intended antecedent is clearly either "my people" or "the Federation Council." Proximity suggests the latter. In general, if you follow a proper noun with a pronoun, and are skilled in speaking clearly as a politician presumably would be, then it's a safe assumption that the proper noun is the antecedent of the succeeding pronoun. If Jaresh-Inyo did intend some other, unspecified "they," if he was suddenly changing the subject without letting his listeners know, then his communication skills are sorely lacking for a president. True, we've had presidents who abused the English language horribly, but nothing else in Jaresh-Inyo's dialogue suggests a Bush-like ineptitude.
 
If you're referring to the UFP medallions that most people in the TVH Council Chamber scenes were wearing, those were explained in some behind-the-scenes material as being visitors' badges, essentially -- they were worn to show you were authorized to be there.


That would work except not everyone is wearing them. The people who seem to be councillors or members of Starfleeet are, Sarek is, but Spock (who wasn't charged with anything and was sitting with Sarek, apprently as an observer) isn't wearing one and neither is Gillian Taylor, also sitting with Sarek. The Enterprise crew, being the accused are not but they would also be authorized to be there, would they not? In short, everyone who is weating the medallions seems to be doing so in some sort of official capacity. They're not just visitors badges.

All withour badges seen here : http://dl.dropbox.com/u/1426584/tvhhd2141.jpg

How about a bicameral system with one house chosen as discussed from among the general population and the other consisting of more experienced professional legislators? (Which I believe is pretty much the form the Martian government took in Kim Stanley Robinson's Mars trilogy, which I strongly recommend. He explains the principles a lot better than I can here.)

Perhaps that's why there's two of most of the various races in the council chambers? One is the directly elected member and the other is the one chosen from the professional legislators on their home planet.Perhaps every two years the Council member for Vulcan, for instance, steps down and a replacement is chosen by lot of the current Vulcan world government. That's how T'Pau could have been chosen. She then turns it down to continue with her current position, staying on the planet rather than travelling to Earth. She did seem to be rather a stay at home type.

Individual planets could choose their "elected" representative by whatever means they choose. I can't really see Vulcans with "Vote for Spork" signs in the front yard and attack ads on the holo-displays "T'Bonz - She is NOT logical".

The Federation President seems to have a fair bit of power over Earth, at least, and perhaps over other planets as well. Why would the Federation President be the one to issue a planetary distress call instead of the leader of the United Earth government? There's no indication of any sort of consultation with the Earth government at all, just Sarek & the President having a brief conversation. Not even a Starfleet representative even though Cartwright is right there. Is Earth the UFP's District of Columbia? Self rule but, in exchange for hosting the seat of the Federation's government and Starfleet, they have limited control on the running of things above the atmosphere? Earth could still have the ability to make individual treaties regarding trade and cultural exchanges but may be more limited in it's ability to control anything off planet. A limit to keep Earth from becoming too powerful with all the big guns of the Federation at it's fingertips?



There are going to be as many new forms of government we encounter as there are new civilizations. To insist that they all follow the same form that Earth does is arrogant to the extreme, If that is the case then maybe Azetbur was right. The Federation really would be a homo-sapiens only club because I can't see too many other planets wanting to join up. Let's not forget the Prime Directive. There may be parts that apply differently depending on your level of achievement. No talking about life on other planets to more primitive cultures. No telling more advanced cultures how to run things on their planet within certain agreed upon limits. Ardana may have been allowed to keep it;s caste system when it joined but it also agreed to treat it's citizens fairly and provide for the health and welfare of all. Their big problem wasn't the mining it was not keeping the miners protected from the zenite gas.


Maybe this should be spun off into a new topic, Federation politics or some such.
 

dLV1s092


There ya go...

However, Pike didn't say the planet was an armada. He said the Federation was.
 
Sci said planets, plural, not a single planet. The Federation is a large group of planets. An armada is a large group of warships or other vehicles. There is no way in which a single anything can be an armada.
 
Sci said planets, plural, not a single planet. The Federation is a large group of planets. An armada is a large group of warships or other vehicles. There is no way in which a single anything can be an armada.

I am pretty sure that DrBashir was joking. :p
 
I just remembered something else I've been wanting. More stories about Harriman and/or Demora Sulu's time as Captain of the Enterprise-B.
 
Sci said planets, plural, not a single planet. The Federation is a large group of planets. An armada is a large group of warships or other vehicles. There is no way in which a single anything can be an armada.

I am pretty sure that DrBashir was joking. :p

Yeah, pretty much. :rommie:

I have been thinking about the whole "peacekeeping and humanitarian armada" thing. It seems to me that the kelvin incident was sort of a 9/11 type of event. Big enough to get a Starfleet shipyard built in George Kirk's hometown, ramping up the military spending it would appear. (The peacekeeping aspect of the armada. Taking action before an enemy can attack them again. Keeping the peace through superior technology and firepower)

What if Pike's concern is that Starfleet is in danger of having it's human leadership usurped by aliens, particularly Vulcans? He doesn't know what the connection between Vulcans & Romulans is, simply from the distant past or have the infiltrated Starfleet and the Federation?

What he's telling JTK in the bar is not that Starfleet keeds more people with his skills, attitude, etc. he's telling him that it needs more humans (the humanitarian aspect of the armada). Starfleet should be taking care of humanity first.

Spock, when faced with defeat, rather than steeling his resolve and detrmining to do better, plans to run off and hide with the Vulcan survivors even though there must be millions more than the 10,000 he keeps talking about. His older self tells him that he needs to find his place and that is under the command of JTK. His job is not to lead but to follow. Kirk pretty much tells him this when Spock says that Kirk would simply ignore regulations and Kirk says that Spock is getting it. The regs don't matter, what matters is that Spock follows Kirk's lead.
 
That line from Pike in the film has always bugged me since it establishes the Federation as being something very different than what we know it is in the prime universe. I also noticed that on the website bios for the characters that it mentions the Federation is a peacekeeping armada. I suppose that Orci and Kurtzman wanted a vague definition of the Federation so that they could establish exactly what it was in later films, at least that is how I reconcile the statement. Of course it could have just been a script error. Or he was really describing what Starfleet is.
 
Thinking about Star Trek/ Legion of Superheroes....

The only Star Trek crossover I'm really interested in would be-

Star Trek/ Star Wars

I have no idea what the story would be but if it was an in depth novel trilogy that took both franchises seriously and didn't bash on either one, it could be awesome.
 
More oddball one-off novels exploring little corners of the Trekverse with mostly unknown characters. Ones that aren't just the TOS/TNG/VOY/ENT template with different names and faces. Most recently, Watching the Clock explored the DTI's role in the Federation. A Stitch in Time and The Final Reflection gave us looks into Cardassian and Klingon life. The Case of the Colonist's Corpse was a murder mystery on a Federation colony planet. Starfleet Academy and The Best and Brightest gave us peeks at academy life in the TOS and TNG eras.

I find books like these really add an aura of depth to the Star Trek universe as a whole.
 
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That line from Pike in the film has always bugged me since it establishes the Federation as being something very different than what we know it is in the prime universe. I also noticed that on the website bios for the characters that it mentions the Federation is a peacekeeping armada. I suppose that Orci and Kurtzman wanted a vague definition of the Federation so that they could establish exactly what it was in later films, at least that is how I reconcile the statement. Of course it could have just been a script error. Or he was really describing what Starfleet is.

I don't think the line was nessicary, and it did not fit.

Imagine a guy sits you down and says "join NASA...you know what NASA is right?"
or worse your a European and you're a solider and a guy says to you "join a unit thats part of the Euro-Battle-groups...you realize what the European Union is right?"

Its because studio execs have this notion that their audiences are brain dead and have to have everything spelled out ultra-simplistic for them.
Explaining that a United Earth is part of a United Federation of Planets...its not exactly difficult.
It was a lazy and stupid refrence.


Anway my wishes, either as novels or tie ins or as part of anthologies...


1. An Aventine series, maybe start off as New Frontier did with some small books to test the waters. I like the new flash ship a lot to explore there with the Quantum Slipstream drive etc, I think Dax's new personality and Bowers have a lot of poitential and they could bring new characters like Nog in since he's left DS9, or even O'Brian, promoted to master cheif or given an officers commission, lots of possibilities for fleshing out the Aventine crew.

2. More about the Enterprise B under Harriman or Sulu, I enjoyed the two that have been.

3. Exploring how Odo and Laas and the few founders left deat with being in charge of the Dominion.

4. DS9 during the borg war

5. DS9 during the TyphonPact cold war

6. Some decent voyager novels set during their time in the delta quadrant (those that are there are thin and low in quality with a few notable exceptions)

7. The second (or third?) 5 year mission of the Enterprise A between V and VI.

8. I LOVE President Bacco, I think we need to see more of her, 1-2 west wing style books with her in them, in the AOTF mould would be great, set during the Typhon Pact era
 
That line from Pike in the film has always bugged me since it establishes the Federation as being something very different than what we know it is in the prime universe. I also noticed that on the website bios for the characters that it mentions the Federation is a peacekeeping armada. I suppose that Orci and Kurtzman wanted a vague definition of the Federation so that they could establish exactly what it was in later films, at least that is how I reconcile the statement. Of course it could have just been a script error. Or he was really describing what Starfleet is.

As I said earlier, I think the line was probably written by Abrams, not K&O. It wasn't in the early version of that scene released online, and it wasn't in the first draft of the novelization. So it almost certainly wasn't in K&O's script. I recall news reports saying that since the writers' strike didn't allow Abrams to rewrite the script during production as he usually would, he had to do what he could to modify it through editing and dubbing in post-production. And since Pike's "armada" line was uttered entirely while Pike was offscreen, that further suggests that it was dubbed in late in the game. Probably because Abrams realized that the film didn't define the Federation for new viewers.

And I wouldn't be surprised if the line was originally written to say "Starfleet" and then got changed to "the Federation." Films often end up employing that kind of shorthand to keep up a lively pace, even at the expense of clarity or precision.
 
Thinking about Star Trek/ Legion of Superheroes....

The only Star Trek crossover I'm really interested in would be-

Star Trek/ Star Wars

I have no idea what the story would be but if it was an in depth novel trilogy that took both franchises seriously and didn't bash on either one, it could be awesome.

I like 'within universe' crossovers such as DS9 / Next Gen or Warehouse 13 / Eureka but have a real problem with crossovers between different franchises. For example, I can't think of anything Doctor Who would fit with - the only possible exception being Hitchikers Guide.

Star Trek and Star Wars are too different in premise - the past / the future, different galaxies, different physics, different supernatural forces etc.

I couldn't take the X Men crossover (and I like the X Men) and although the LSH may be a slightly better fit I can't see this being much different.

My problem I suppose...
 
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