Angel- Why no Love!

[Hermiod]

^That's exactly what did happen. She touched him in a way he didn't want to be touched, he said no, she kept going.

They did have sex, Xander walked in on them and Spike claimed to be doing "push ups".

 

[Bob The Skutter]

Way to go around in circles there. Dizzy yet ? Buffy didn't "surrender" by not having sex with him. Do you "surrender" to all the women you want to have sex with who don't let you ?
.

How does sucking his dick after he told her to leave equate to "Surrendering to his wishes"? She may not have forced him to have full penetrative sex but she certainly sexually assaulted him.

No, she didn't. Attempting to change someone's mind by sexually arousing them is not sexual assault. It only becomes sexual assault if you keep going after someone tells you not to, and refuses your advances. This obviously didn't happen, as Buffy remained unsatisfied and thus left and accepted his wishes after he stayed adamant. Thus, there is no sexual assault.

If your idea of sexual assault were actually sexual assault, than anyone making the first move attempting to seduce someone is a someone who commits sexual assault. EVERYONE.

Sucking someone's cock after being told to leave does not equate with "Making the first move".

 

[3D Master]

Accepting their wishes and moving on, is a form of surrender, it's surrendering to their wishes and moving on. Not surrendering, is not accepting their wishes and force yourself on them.

So you're just confusing the words "surrender" and "accept" then ?

Not at all, you don't seem to understand all the meanings of the words and phrases.

She initiated, he said no, she continued to push until he gave in. They did have sex, he just didn't want as much as she did and she complained when they stopped.

Bullshit. She complained that they did not have sex, thus they did not have sex and he did NOT give in. She accepted his wishes and she complained about it.

The nature of the episode means we don't know exactly what Buffy was doing, but it looks very much like she at least put her hand down his trousers before he knew who it was. He visibly tried to stop whatever was going on, but she carried on. That is not exactly taking "no means no" in to account.

Nowhere did he not know who she was. He only stopped her after Xander had arrived and left the crypt. He then told her to stop, and she did, or she wouldn't be complaining later on they stopped.

Xander isn't the male lead, that's Angel. Xander is just the supporting character, at best, if you're lucky. I know, it's wrong, and Xander should be the male lead, but them's the breaks.

Xander was in virtually every episode. Angel was only a regular for two seasons. In fact, in the second half of one of those seasons he was barely around at all in many episodes.

And yet, Angel is the lead. Xander is treated as dirt, as a mere sidekick at best. Xander is relegated to being a hanger on, he never has a single significant running storyline. Angel as the male lead got his am I a hero, or a coward in the shadows story line in S1, losing his soul, getting it back story line in S2, in S3 it was his guilt and his desire to fuck Buffy again and happily lose his soul again versus finally growing a pair and leaving story line.

In S4, Riley replaces Angel as the male lead. His S4 story line is the orders versus family and friends story line. In S5, it's the should I stay or should I go / I can't understand Buffy / she doesn't love me story line. Then Spike replaces him as the male lead.

Xander is just side fodder, regardless of the fact that he is in more episodes.

Regardless of who was the victim, acts of violence against the male characters were not given the same sympathetic treatment as the female ones - the most obvious example being Buffy's reaction when she found out Riley had slept with Faith-as-Buffy. Far too much emphasis was placed on Buffy's point of view and nothing at all on Riley being effectively raped by Faith.

As opposed to Spike's attempt to rape Buffy where Buffy as the victim gets written as if nothing happened, and happily brings her sister in the next scenes to be protected by her attempted rapist, pretty much acting like a nutcase, and the whole story line about the attempted rape is woe-is-me poor little attempted-rapist Spike.

It's got nothing to do with male/female but which characters are the writers' pets.

Yes, that's exactly what the article says. In Bizarro world.

Funny, Bizarro world is also where Xander was treated well in the first five seasons of the show.

Two seasons of the show. In the first two seasons he was treated okay, after that he was treated as old garbage, aka the Zeppo. Back in S2, it was Buffy that went on donut runs so the sugar could keep Willow, Xander, and Giles keep an active brain as they researched.

In season 3, he suddenly inexplicably is the guy going on donut runs. "The Zeppo" is a major offense in this.

The point is that Buffy's take on male/ female gender/ sexual politics is not as simple as "All women = strong= good, All men = weak=good", but is, in reality, much more complicated than that.

Given your interest, and often quite thoughtful criticisms of material involving powerful female heroes, I thought you'd find this fascinating reading. Perhaps I was wrong.

Buffy is the worst possible example of a powerful female hero. She's a whining, useless, pathetic, immature child who just so happens to have superpowers.

Indeed, that add the whole attempted rape business and her "getting her power back" because her attempted rapist has a sweet spot for her and he holds her in his arms. Yegh.

Remember that episode of Futurama where Leela meets all the other kids from the orphanage again ? She's successful space captain while the rest of them are still deadbeats, yet because she's only got one eye she's the loser. That's pretty much how the show presents Xander. He's the loser because he doesn't have superpowers.

Which in Angel S5 gets compounded by the other normal guys, Gunn and Wesley, be reduced to losers and pathetic, or unable to do anything unless they let W&H jack them up with a super power, like super smarts; despite the fact than in the first 4 seasons when Greenwalt was still running the show or in the fourth when his influence on the Angel writing staff was still bigger before Joss butted in after Buffy ended, there is not a single hint at Gunn and Wesley being pathetic, they're in fact those with the greatest power.

True but Buffy became a Slayer in the 80's,

The nineties, she became a Slayer in the 90s.

^That's exactly what did happen. She touched him in a way he didn't want to be touched, he said no, she kept going.

They did have sex, Xander walked in on them and Spike claimed to be doing "push ups".

And there was no sexual assault involved. HE was actively fucking HER, she wasn't riding him against his will.

Again, if this is your definition of sexual assault, than everyone making the initial move during a sexual seduction is sexually assaulting the other.

 

[exodus]

How did we go from Angel being a good show to sexual assault & sucking cock?

 

[Bob The Skutter]

How did we go from Angel being a good show to sexual assault & sucking cock?

Whedon show threads always go this way.

 

[Snick27]

Does anyone remember when this thread was about Angel?

yeah ive been wondering what the hell happened to my thread here.


I tried to watch some Buffy but the lesbo crap between Willow an Tara just killed it along with all the soapy storylines.

And dam doesnt Eve look hot as hell on Angel. And is it me that Angel and Spike seem to push the rest of the cast into the shaddows in season 5?

Atleast early on.


Oh btw the curse on Angel. Is it a one time thing since he had his happyness after banging Buffy and turned into Angelus. So woudnt the curse be done and if he gets his soul back wouldnt he be ok now or was the curse that if he had a soul he would always lose it if he had a moment of happyness?


Just been wondering that. Again Eve is freaking hot!

 

[StarshipDefiant]

Curse is if he had a soul, and gains happiness, he looses it, even if this has happened and he gets it back.

 

[Hermiod]

How did we go from Angel being a good show to sexual assault & sucking cock?

How do you think Boreanaz got the job.

 

[WillsBabe]

When she then pretends to be Buffy and sleeps with Riley, the focus is on Buffy being betrayed by her boyfriend and not on Riley being tricked in to sex that he wouldn't have consented to.

I only watched this episode the other day and this didn't occur to me. I would have liked to have seen the ramifications of this from Riley's pov explored, rather than from Buffy's. Thematically, it would have tied in with the other things that were being done to Riley's body without his consent (the drugs and the chip in his chest). On the other hand, it might have been too much of the same thing and detracted from what the Initiative were doing to him. I wish they'd gone with it.

 

[Bob The Skutter]

When she then pretends to be Buffy and sleeps with Riley, the focus is on Buffy being betrayed by her boyfriend and not on Riley being tricked in to sex that he wouldn't have consented to.

I only watched this episode the other day and this didn't occur to me. I would have liked to have seen the ramifications of this from Riley's pov explored, rather than from Buffy's. Thematically, it would have tied in with the other things that were being done to Riley's body without his consent (the drugs and the chip in his chest). On the other hand, it might have been too much of the same thing and detracted from what the Initiative were doing to him. I wish they'd gone with it.

I think it all ties in to the eventual "She doesn't love me" but yeah, it's all about Buffy feeling betrayed and not whether Riley did or should feel violated. And yeah, given the other stuff it would have connected well with Riley's story. It's a shame there wasn't more made of Riley's point of view in all this.

Then again if there had been "fans" would have probably complained even more than they did about him.

 

[Hermiod]

Instead we got "How could you sleep with someone who looked exactly like me and gave you no indication that she wasn't me ?"

As always, Riley's feelings were treated as being of little importance. The irony is that when he finally goes off the rails, Buffy doesn't see it coming yet there's obvious reasons why.

 

[Bob The Skutter]

^Instead we got "How could you sleep with someone who looked exactly like me and gave you no indication that she wasn't me ?"

As always, Riley's feelings were treated as being of little importance. The irony is that when he finally goes off the rails, Buffy doesn't see it coming.

The thing was, if I remember correctly, he did question it, she was acting un-Buffy-like and then Faith ran away. I mean how many people would question their partner making advances in an unusual way, other than thinking they maybe just had a bad day or something?

 

[Hermiod]

^Instead we got "How could you sleep with someone who looked exactly like me and gave you no indication that she wasn't me ?"

As always, Riley's feelings were treated as being of little importance. The irony is that when he finally goes off the rails, Buffy doesn't see it coming.

The thing was, if I remember correctly, he did question it, she was acting un-Buffy-like and then Faith ran away. I mean how many people would question their partner making advances in an unusual way, other than thinking they maybe just had a bad day or something?

While it goes against the fact that I strongly dislike the "always up for it" stereotype, a guy like Riley isn't going to really object if his girlfriend shows up and wants to have sex with him even if she's a little rougher than usual.

In fact, he was more of a gentleman than a lot of people would have been in that situation.

Ultimately, this all just confirms Buffy's rather self-centered view of the world.

 

[Bob The Skutter]

^Instead we got "How could you sleep with someone who looked exactly like me and gave you no indication that she wasn't me ?"

As always, Riley's feelings were treated as being of little importance. The irony is that when he finally goes off the rails, Buffy doesn't see it coming.

The thing was, if I remember correctly, he did question it, she was acting un-Buffy-like and then Faith ran away. I mean how many people would question their partner making advances in an unusual way, other than thinking they maybe just had a bad day or something?

While it goes against the fact that I strongly dislike the "always up for it" stereotype, a guy like Riley isn't going to really object if his girlfriend shows up and wants to have sex with him even if she's a little rougher than usual.

In fact, he was more of a gentleman than a lot of people would have been in that situation.

Ultimately, this all just confirms Buffy's rather self-centered view of the world.

This brings to mind something that was said on twitter the other day. Someone said every woman she knows has, at some time, had trouble getting their boyfriends to have sex with them. They were up for it and their boyfriends weren't.

Even so, I don't think most people would question their partners being up for it.

 

[Captaindemotion]

^ Especially if their partner looked like Buffy (though even more if they looked like Faith ...)

 

[exodus]

How did we go from Angel being a good show to sexual assault & sucking cock?

How do you think Boreanaz got the job.

OUCH!!!

 

[Hermiod]

This brings to mind something that was said on twitter the other day. Someone said every woman she knows has, at some time, had trouble getting their boyfriends to have sex with them. They were up for it and their boyfriends weren't.

Shockingly, sometimes men are tired or busy or have a headache too.

 

[exodus]

This brings to mind something that was said on twitter the other day. Someone said every woman she knows has, at some time, had trouble getting their boyfriends to have sex with them. They were up for it and their boyfriends weren't.

Shockingly, sometimes men are tired or busy or have a headache too.

Hard to believe, folks but it is true.

 

[Bob The Skutter]

This brings to mind something that was said on twitter the other day. Someone said every woman she knows has, at some time, had trouble getting their boyfriends to have sex with them. They were up for it and their boyfriends weren't.

Shockingly, sometimes men are tired or busy or have a headache too.

You mean it's not just erectile dysfunction?

 

[Hermiod]

This brings to mind something that was said on twitter the other day. Someone said every woman she knows has, at some time, had trouble getting their boyfriends to have sex with them. They were up for it and their boyfriends weren't.

Shockingly, sometimes men are tired or busy or have a headache too.

You mean it's not just erectile dysfunction?

Well, Pele might disagree with me, but I doubt it.