Angel- Why no Love!

[Bob The Skutter]

Shockingly, sometimes men are tired or busy or have a headache too.

You mean it's not just erectile dysfunction?

Well, Pele might disagree with me, but I doubt it.

Always seems like "That's never happened to me before" is the only reason guys have for not having sex in TV and movies.

 

[Hermiod]

Always seems like "That's never happened to me before" is the only reason guys have for not having sex in TV and movies.

Well, there was that episode of Scrubs where Turk faked it because he couldn't finish, I suppose.

 

[Sci]

Exactly!

Chakotay from Voyager springs to mind.
However, I think the whole Buffy as a feminist icon comes crashing down when you consider Buffy couldn't pay the bills, morgage on the house or even fill out the legal paper after her mom died without Giles.
Buffy & Dawn would have been hungry & homeless without him.

Well she did have some pretty important extracurricular activities on her hands. Pretty tough to hold down a 9-5 job capable of taking care of two people with only a high school diploma given those circumstances.

True but Buffy became a Slayer in the 80's, what did the Slayers before her in the modern era do in the economic world we live in? A Slayer would have no choice but to be dependant on her Watcher to care & provide for her. That's the point I'm trying to convey. If her Watcher is a man, then she is dependant on him for EVERYTHING.

1. Buffy was Called in 1996, not the 80s. She wasn't even born until 1980.

2. Yes, Slayers prior to Buffy were dependent upon their Watchers, because the entire institution of the Watcher's Council and Slayerdom was created by the Shadow Men in order to force female lives to serve as cannon fodder in their war against Demons. It was only after Buffy outmaneuvered the Watcher's Council, the destruction of the Council by the First Evil, and the Calling of all Potential Slayers by Buffy and Willow that being a Slayer became an empowering thing. That was the point of the whole series -- Buffy overthrowing a patriarchal system.

 

[StarshipDefiant]

Well she did have some pretty important extracurricular activities on her hands. Pretty tough to hold down a 9-5 job capable of taking care of two people with only a high school diploma given those circumstances.

True but Buffy became a Slayer in the 80's, what did the Slayers before her in the modern era do in the economic world we live in? A Slayer would have no choice but to be dependant on her Watcher to care & provide for her. That's the point I'm trying to convey. If her Watcher is a man, then she is dependant on him for EVERYTHING.

1. Buffy was Called in 1996, not the 80s. She wasn't even born until 1980.

2. Yes, Slayers prior to Buffy were dependent upon their Watchers, because the entire institution of the Watcher's Council and Slayerdom was created by the Shadow Men in order to force female lives to serve as cannon fodder in their war against Demons. It was only after Buffy outmaneuvered the Watcher's Council, the destruction of the Council by the First Evil, and the Calling of all Potential Slayers by Buffy and Willow that being a Slayer became an empowering thing. That was the point of the whole series -- Buffy overthrowing a patriarchal system.

Which in hindsight, provides a better arc or a more overall arc then trying to connect the various "Big Bad" of the season(s), Kind of like how Angel's story was fighting Wolfram & Hart/The Apocalypse and Angels apparent destiny/prophacy

 

[3D Master]

Well she did have some pretty important extracurricular activities on her hands. Pretty tough to hold down a 9-5 job capable of taking care of two people with only a high school diploma given those circumstances.

True but Buffy became a Slayer in the 80's, what did the Slayers before her in the modern era do in the economic world we live in? A Slayer would have no choice but to be dependant on her Watcher to care & provide for her. That's the point I'm trying to convey. If her Watcher is a man, then she is dependant on him for EVERYTHING.

1. Buffy was Called in 1996, not the 80s. She wasn't even born until 1980.

2. Yes, Slayers prior to Buffy were dependent upon their Watchers, because the entire institution of the Watcher's Council and Slayerdom was created by the Shadow Men in order to force female lives to serve as cannon fodder in their war against Demons. It was only after Buffy outmaneuvered the Watcher's Council, the destruction of the Council by the First Evil, and the Calling of all Potential Slayers by Buffy and Willow that being a Slayer became an empowering thing. That was the point of the whole series -- Buffy overthrowing a patriarchal system.

Except that making the Slayer was depicted as rape, making the calling of all Slayers mass rape on a grand scale and not empowering at all, unless you think that a woman raped by a woman is empowering.

Not to mention that the Slayer is a demonic entity, so they stuffed a demonic entity down several hundred to several thousand girls' throats.

Thus it wasn't empowering but depowering and being chained to vicious demonic instincts, as the woman suddenly beating up her abusive boyfriend or husband shows. She did not grow in power, she did not grow a spine, left, called the cops - no, she just turned into a female version of her abusive boyfriend, perpetuating the cycle of violence instead of breaking it.

It also rather denigrating to women in general. Apparently you as a woman do not have the ability to play any sports, or free yourself from any situation, or do anything good or great... unless you've got a demon inside you giving you superhuman strength and speed.

In the end, it was just horrible writing.

 

[Hermiod]

^Let's face it, Buffy's final message was "We're powerful women who don't need men anymore... oh, unless we need one to get rid of those pesky Turok-Han... or loan us money to pay our mortgages".

(Weird trivia note - The lead actors from all four television series created by Joss Whedon appear in "Chosen" - Sarah Michelle Gellar, David Boreanaz, Nathan Fillion and Eliza Dushku)

 

[FALCONX0N]

True but Buffy became a Slayer in the 80's, what did the Slayers before her in the modern era do in the economic world we live in? A Slayer would have no choice but to be dependant on her Watcher to care & provide for her. That's the point I'm trying to convey. If her Watcher is a man, then she is dependant on him for EVERYTHING.

1. Buffy was Called in 1996, not the 80s. She wasn't even born until 1980.

2. Yes, Slayers prior to Buffy were dependent upon their Watchers, because the entire institution of the Watcher's Council and Slayerdom was created by the Shadow Men in order to force female lives to serve as cannon fodder in their war against Demons. It was only after Buffy outmaneuvered the Watcher's Council, the destruction of the Council by the First Evil, and the Calling of all Potential Slayers by Buffy and Willow that being a Slayer became an empowering thing. That was the point of the whole series -- Buffy overthrowing a patriarchal system.

Except that making the Slayer was depicted as rape, making the calling of all Slayers mass rape on a grand scale and not empowering at all, unless you think that a woman raped by a woman is empowering.

Not to mention that the Slayer is a demonic entity, so they stuffed a demonic entity down several hundred to several thousand girls' throats.

Thus it wasn't empowering but depowering and being chained to vicious demonic instincts, as the woman suddenly beating up her abusive boyfriend or husband shows. She did not grow in power, she did not grow a spine, left, called the cops - no, she just turned into a female version of her abusive boyfriend, perpetuating the cycle of violence instead of breaking it.

It also rather denigrating to women in general. Apparently you as a woman do not have the ability to play any sports, or free yourself from any situation, or do anything good or great... unless you've got a demon inside you giving you superhuman strength and speed.

In the end, it was just horrible writing.

The initial formation of the Slayer was depicted as rape. That demonic instinct/power/'essence'(that's even what the call it!) could be argued to be something masculine, a purely destructive force. Buffy even rejects it, despite the concept that it would have made her more 'powerful'--physically but not emotionally or spiritually, 'cause y'know...rape. So is this what she does to everyone else? I don't think so. Remember, this is the same Buffy, who in Restless, goes up against the nebulous, Rape-y "Slayer Demon Hybrid Force" and defeats it not through a match of superior destructive capacity, but simply through the asserting of her own self-identity as a Slayer, and a woman.

It's that which she calls in the girls in Chosen, not simply the 'demon essence.' The Slayer capacity, a masculine force created by a patriarchal system, has been transformed, and now women are in control of it completely.

Now, whether the act itself of essentially saying "Hi, I'm Buffy you're ____ now, bye!" regardless of if she called man or women to be Slayers or bakers or candlestick makers is a good or bad thing, well...that's not just 'rape' that's simply a violation of free will. And oddly enough, season 8 seems to be erring on the side of "Buffy did a very, very dangerous thing for all the pure intentions in the world, and it has not had the empowering effect she thought it was going to." For what it's worth, one of the very first set ups is Buffy vs another patriarchal system, but this time when she gives the Girl Power speech the guy just shouts her down and chides her for thinking in such small-minded terms. Buffy's reaction to that is deliberate and more than a little disturbing.

And then there's the ultimate fate of the point of this topic, Angel himself. With recent events I'd even go as far as to say that Buffy is ceasing to be a feminist icon and becoming a feminine avatar, more about representing the female than empowering it, in a mythic sense. With Angel as the masculine counterpoint.

 

[Hermiod]

^Unfortunately, it's this kind of analysis that largely explains why - unlike a lot of shows I have gone back to again and again - my Buffy DVDs have not seen the light of day again since I finished watching them the first time.

While I don't disagree with your analysis, the whole business is about as subtle as a Troll Hammer in the face. It doesn't really need or deserve this kind of deep thought.

And that all brings me back to what I said at the beginning - Angel was a better show because it lacked the boring "girl power" crap Buffy was held back by.

 

[FALCONX0N]

^Unfortunately, it's this kind of analysis that largely explains why - unlike a lot of shows I have gone back to again and again - my Buffy DVDs have not seen the light of day again since I finished watching them the first time.

While I don't disagree with your analysis, the whole business is about as subtle as a Troll Hammer in the face. It doesn't really need or deserve this kind of deep thought.

And that all brings me back to what I said at the beginning - Angel was a better show because it lacked the boring "girl power" crap Buffy was held back by.

Really? I kinda find this stuff fun I do agree that Angel is the superior show, though, absolutely and 100%. Angel wasn't about a gender bias as it's primary statement--I always felt it was about a hero, and how truly difficult, and painful it is to do the right thing in a corrupted world. To me, that's more universal than anything else.

 

[3D Master]

1. Buffy was Called in 1996, not the 80s. She wasn't even born until 1980.

2. Yes, Slayers prior to Buffy were dependent upon their Watchers, because the entire institution of the Watcher's Council and Slayerdom was created by the Shadow Men in order to force female lives to serve as cannon fodder in their war against Demons. It was only after Buffy outmaneuvered the Watcher's Council, the destruction of the Council by the First Evil, and the Calling of all Potential Slayers by Buffy and Willow that being a Slayer became an empowering thing. That was the point of the whole series -- Buffy overthrowing a patriarchal system.

Except that making the Slayer was depicted as rape, making the calling of all Slayers mass rape on a grand scale and not empowering at all, unless you think that a woman raped by a woman is empowering.

Not to mention that the Slayer is a demonic entity, so they stuffed a demonic entity down several hundred to several thousand girls' throats.

Thus it wasn't empowering but depowering and being chained to vicious demonic instincts, as the woman suddenly beating up her abusive boyfriend or husband shows. She did not grow in power, she did not grow a spine, left, called the cops - no, she just turned into a female version of her abusive boyfriend, perpetuating the cycle of violence instead of breaking it.

It also rather denigrating to women in general. Apparently you as a woman do not have the ability to play any sports, or free yourself from any situation, or do anything good or great... unless you've got a demon inside you giving you superhuman strength and speed.

In the end, it was just horrible writing.

The initial formation of the Slayer was depicted as rape. That demonic instinct/power/'essence'(that's even what the call it!) could be argued to be something masculine, a purely destructive force. Buffy even rejects it, despite the concept that it would have made her more 'powerful'--physically but not emotionally or spiritually, 'cause y'know...rape. So is this what she does to everyone else? I don't think so. Remember, this is the same Buffy, who in Restless, goes up against the nebulous, Rape-y "Slayer Demon Hybrid Force" and defeats it not through a match of superior destructive capacity, but simply through the asserting of her own self-identity as a Slayer, and a woman.

Except of course, that this has got absolutely nothing to do with the act she and the rest of them performed on hundreds if not thousands of girls.

It's that which she calls in the girls in Chosen, not simply the 'demon essence.' The Slayer capacity, a masculine force created by a patriarchal system, has been transformed, and now women are in control of it completely.

No, the Slayer is a demonic essence, to empower a potential Slayer to a full Slayer, you need the demonic essence, and stuff in their throat. She didn't actually tell any of the potentials that the Slayer is a demon in nature; which makes her aggrandizing speech severely manipulative. The gender of the force doesn't really matter, what matter is that it is demonic.

Now, whether the act itself of essentially saying "Hi, I'm Buffy you're ____ now, bye!" regardless of if she called man or women to be Slayers or bakers or candlestick makers is a good or bad thing, well...that's not just 'rape' that's simply a violation of free will. And oddly enough, season 8 seems to be erring on the side of "Buffy did a very, very dangerous thing for all the pure intentions in the world, and it has not had the empowering effect she thought it was going to." For what it's worth, one of the very first set ups is Buffy vs another patriarchal system, but this time when she gives the Girl Power speech the guy just shouts her down and chides her for thinking in such small-minded terms. Buffy's reaction to that is deliberate and more than a little disturbing.

And then there's the ultimate fate of the point of this topic, Angel himself. With recent events I'd even go as far as to say that Buffy is ceasing to be a feminist icon and becoming a feminine avatar, more about representing the female than empowering it, in a mythic sense. With Angel as the masculine counterpoint.

The comics is just more of the same disgusting bullshit that was S7. Buffy is now a criminal, she thinks she's above the law and above everyone else, and will kill everyone in her way, pretty much seems like the demon has taken over; which makes Twilight and the "patriarchal system" (which it isn't) she's facing the good guys, and her and rest of them, the villains.

And now she's supergirl and Angel is Twilight. Thank god, I realized how bad it was and was going to be worse so I quit reading that after just a few issues.

 

[FALCONX0N]

No, the Slayer is a demonic essence, to empower a potential Slayer to a full Slayer, you need the demonic essence, and stuff in their throat. She didn't actually tell any of the potentials that the Slayer is a demon in nature; which makes her aggrandizing speech severely manipulative. The gender of the force doesn't really matter, what matter is that it is demonic.

My only point is that they set up in the show previously that the "Slayer as an entirely evil, demonic force" was no longer the case. The force they called upon to defeat Adam was "the Slayer Essence" and Buffy defeats it essentially by saying "we are above what you were."

What I'm not going to say, though, is that you're 100% wrong--because Season 8 might be about to prove you very right with a big 'revelation about the Slayer line" in the next issue.

And now she's supergirl and Angel is Twilight. Thank god, I realized how bad it was and was going to be worse so I quit reading that after just a few issues.

...Or season 8 may be giving you (and a lot of us) sweet, sweet, satisfaction by calling Buffy on a lot of her shit. Right now they're setting it up to go both ways--and Angel is pretty much the only other character, both in-universe and on a meta level, that can tell Buffy that she's wrong and to STFU.

However, as I've argued on this board before, the season 8 comics have nearly ruined the character of Angel. What he did with Wolfram and Hart was making the best out of an awful situation. What he does in season 8 is...nearly irredeemable. Does anybody else feel this way? The last issue seemed to soften the blow, and those upcoming retcon revelations may shed more light on things, but I still feel that Angel-as-Twilight runs contrary to the entire point of the show.

 

[Hermiod]

Really? I kinda find this stuff fun I do agree that Angel is the superior show, though, absolutely and 100%. Angel wasn't about a gender bias as it's primary statement--I always felt it was about a hero, and how truly difficult, and painful it is to do the right thing in a corrupted world. To me, that's more universal than anything else.

Yes, that's largely why Angel is a considerably better show in hindsight.

Buffy was, at time, ingenious, superbly original, funny, moving and generally brilliant. However, those last few episodes spoiled the whole thing for me.

I'm not just talking about the hamfisted "releasing the true power of women from male oppression" business in "Chosen" but the character of Caleb as well.

You make an army made up largely of women and then put them up against a male villain who refers to them as "whores" and generally fits every misogynist stereotype you can think of.

Then, when Buffy finally kills him, she cuts upwards through his male genitalia, because subtle is a word lost of Joss at this point.

Then again, this is the same Joss Whedon who used to run a show called Dollhouse. A show where, despite having numerous large, strong, male Actives at their disposal, every single time they needed someone who could fight, they gave the assignment to one of the female ones.

 

[3D Master]

No, the Slayer is a demonic essence, to empower a potential Slayer to a full Slayer, you need the demonic essence, and stuff in their throat. She didn't actually tell any of the potentials that the Slayer is a demon in nature; which makes her aggrandizing speech severely manipulative. The gender of the force doesn't really matter, what matter is that it is demonic.

My only point is that they set up in the show previously that the "Slayer as an entirely evil, demonic force" was no longer the case. The force they called upon to defeat Adam was "the Slayer Essence" and Buffy defeats it essentially by saying "we are above what you were."

No, she defeated the First Slayer by telling her to shove off and that she's no longer alone. That is NOT the demonic essence that gives a Slayer her power.

 

[DS9Continuing]

Much as I hate to get myself involved in this unending and dizzying merry-go-round...

Except that making the Slayer was depicted as rape, making the calling of all Slayers mass rape on a grand scale and not empowering at all, unless you think that a woman raped by a woman is empowering.

The damage had already been done - these girls were already marked as Potentials. What Buffy did was turn that around - make the bad thing that had been done to them into a good thing by giving them back the power that had been taken away from them.

Thus it wasn't empowering but depowering and being chained to vicious demonic instincts, as the woman suddenly beating up her abusive boyfriend or husband shows. She did not grow in power, she did not grow a spine, left, called the cops - no, she just turned into a female version of her abusive boyfriend, perpetuating the cycle of violence instead of breaking it.

At this point you're simply imagining things in an attempt to support your argument. No such scene was ever shown. What we see was the young woman standing up and blocking the hand that had been about to strike her. That's all. Anything more is fantasy on your part.

But if you must have it, then consider "Damage." That episode demontrates that activating all the potentials was not necessarily a good idea by giving the power to a psychotic. Of course, she was only psychotic because of what had been done to her previously - by a man. Even then the new Slayer Army dealt with the consequences of their own actions.

It also rather denigrating to women in general. Apparently you as a woman do not have the ability to play any sports, or free yourself from any situation, or do anything good or great... unless you've got a demon inside you giving you superhuman strength and speed.

And here you completely forget the concept of metaphor, which is the entire basis of the show.

 

[3D Master]

Much as I hate to get myself involved in this unending and dizzying merry-go-round...

Except that making the Slayer was depicted as rape, making the calling of all Slayers mass rape on a grand scale and not empowering at all, unless you think that a woman raped by a woman is empowering.

The damage had already been done - these girls were already marked as Potentials. What Buffy did was turn that around - make the bad thing that had been done to them into a good thing by giving them back the power that had been taken away from them.

1. No power was taken away from them, in fact, S7 pretty much goes by Potential Slayers are all but real Slayers and instinctive perfect fighters - which a. defeats the whole purpose of training them, and b. it means they were given power, nothing was taken away from them.

2. Taking a tiny taint, and then turning it into a full-fledging jack up by a demonic being, is NOT a good thing. That's a bad thing on it's own. Further, they're now targets, to every demonic thing, instead of the one that knew how to find them (which begs the question why they aren't dead yet, one of the many, many plot-holes of S7.) Even worse.

3. Whether you think turning potentials into Slayers is a good thing or not, doesn't matter. I personally think sex is a very good thing. However, if I force it onto someone without their consent, I'm still committing the horrible act that is called rape.

4. If being a potential, having just a touch of a demonic entity, onto you is a bad thing, and takes away potentials power, than the good thing to do, would have been to cleanse the demonic taint from, transform the demon into a spirit of light, nature, Gaia. THIS would have been the good thing that gives potentials back their power; to be full women with their own minds, instead of a demonic essence festering on them.

(I used this in fanfiction, in fact. It allows the woman getting abused, the potential taint festered on it, to get out and call the cops. The baseball girl that was going to swing with all she got, miss, screw the three bases loaded game through her team's nose - because the taint wouldn't let her do anything else - swing less hard, hit, made to go out but cause their team to win.)

Thus it wasn't empowering but depowering and being chained to vicious demonic instincts, as the woman suddenly beating up her abusive boyfriend or husband shows. She did not grow in power, she did not grow a spine, left, called the cops - no, she just turned into a female version of her abusive boyfriend, perpetuating the cycle of violence instead of breaking it.

At this point you're simply imagining things in an attempt to support your argument. No such scene was ever shown. What we see was the young woman standing up and blocking the hand that had been about to strike her. That's all. Anything more is fantasy on your part.

Uh, no, her fist flew at the camera.

But if you must have it, then consider "Damage." That episode demontrates that activating all the potentials was not necessarily a good idea by giving the power to a psychotic. Of course, she was only psychotic because of what had been done to her previously - by a man. Even then the new Slayer Army dealt with the consequences of their own actions.

Which of course is just more, "men are evil, and the cause off all misery in the world." It would have been so much better if the damage was done to her by a woman, or better yet, if she just couldn't handle being a Slayer and having the instincts and nightmares drove her nuts - a reason why the Slayer essence never chose her to be the actual Slayer.

It also rather denigrating to women in general. Apparently you as a woman do not have the ability to play any sports, or free yourself from any situation, or do anything good or great... unless you've got a demon inside you giving you superhuman strength and speed.

And here you completely forget the concept of metaphor, which is the entire basis of the show.

And here you completely forget that a metaphor doesn't work if it is broken. A proper metaphor to show the unshackling of women and giving them power, would be what I wrote above; turn the demonic into a spirit of nature.

 

[DS9Continuing]

I wonder, can we ever have a thread on a Whedon-related topic without getting into this Over and Over and Over again? It's no wonder I barely ever bother coming into this room anymore.

 

[Snick27]

I wonder, can we ever have a thread on a Whedon-related topic without getting into this Over and Over and Over again? It's no wonder I barely ever bother coming into this room anymore.

i see my Angel topic was high jacked?

EVE

 

[Ethros]

^ As soon as I saw a certain poster enter this thread I knew any enjoyable discussion of the orginal topic (believe it or not I think it was Angel) was over.

Just had a look now to see if anything interesting had happened, but I just see a plethora of absolute waffle that I'd rather stick pins in my eyes than read.

 

[Captaindemotion]

^Amen to the above. Can we just kill the dull and agenda-driven stuff about feminism please?

 

[Hermiod]

^Amen to the above. Can we just kill the dull and agenda-driven stuff about feminism please?

As long as both sides agree, fine.

All my position has been all along is that Angel was a better show for being free of all the gender crap. Unfortunately, Buffy as a show was agenda-driven itself, so it's bound to come up.

That said, I've said my piece on the subject and I'll try not to let season seven spoil my memory of the show in future.