Angel- Why no Love!

[Captaindemotion]

Angel was a great show. Not a bad season in its run. The final season was slow to get going but once it did, it was incredible. And the last episode is one of the best finales in genre tv, with quite possibly the best final scene.

'Let's go to work.'

 

[Thestral]

So you missed all the dialogue about the one Slayer (who are, inexplicably, all female) at a time rule being just a rule made up by men. Then, suddenly, Willow breaks that rule and hundreds of little girls suddenly become Slayers. It's about as subtle as a Troll hammer in the face.

"Inexplicable" that they're all female? Not really, it's just an inversion of the usual trope.

And the bit about one Slayer at a time being a rule made up by men? Nope, not seeing the problem there either. Misogyny does, after all, have a long history and controlling (one of the?) most powerful beings on the planet seems right up that alley.

Still, give Buffy a bit of credit - it has the most quotable line about the way women view men in the history of the written word.

And what would that be?

So, actually, I wasn't even talking about the explicitly misandrist character.

Even if I grant that Anya was a misandrist character for much of the show, her presence says nothing about the character of the show. How do other characters view her attitudes towards men? How are we meant to view them?

Indeed. After all, she's a Vengeance Demon. I don't know about you, but in my world Demons are bad things

 

[Hermiod]

Still, give Buffy a bit of credit - it has the most quotable line about the way women view men in the history of the written word.

And what would that be?

Anya: "We could watch sports of some kind."
Xander: "Uh, I don't know."
Anya: "Men like sports. I'm sure of it."
Xander: "Yes, men like sports. Men watch the action movie. They eat of the beef and enjoy to look at the bosoms. A thousand years of avenging our wrongs, and that's all you've learned?"

 

[Warp Coil]

Angel was a great show. It was dark and brooding, much like the main character. It did some pretty dramatic and shocking things. It took risks, it told great stories, and had wonderfully story arcs. The show took a little time to get itself in gear - season one is mostly primer, with the exception of a few great episodes. In season two, things slowly begin to change and the series begins to ramp up. Seasons 3 and 4 are amazing (season 4 may be my favorite of anything Joss has ever done). The final year was a little awkward and clumsy at first, but really pulled itself together in the end.

I don't really care to pick and choose between Buffy and Angel as to which was the better series. Even though they existed in the same universe and revolved around many of the same characters, the shows were really very different from one another. I like them both for different reasons.

 

[Thestral]

Still, give Buffy a bit of credit - it has the most quotable line about the way women view men in the history of the written word.

And what would that be?

Anya: "We could watch sports of some kind."
Xander: "Uh, I don't know."
Anya: "Men like sports. I'm sure of it."
Xander: "Yes, men like sports. Men watch the action movie. They eat of the beef and enjoy to look at the bosoms. A thousand years of avenging our wrongs, and that's all you've learned?"

<snicker>

A fine description of men!

 

[Hermiod]

<snicker>

A fine description of men!

A fine description of how ignorant women are about men, sure.

 

[Thestral]

<snicker>

A fine description of men!

A fine description of how ignorant women are about men, sure.

Oh lighten up. That's the whole point of the exchange, after all, that assumptions shouldn't be made.

Besides, it is a fine description of men. Or at least of me. And many men I know. (In fairness, many women too)

I mean, what's better than a bacon cheddar burger, a football game, and a hot chick? (feel free to sub in a good action film for the football game)

 

[Hermiod]

<snicker>

A fine description of men!

A fine description of how ignorant women are about men, sure.

Oh lighten up. That's the whole point of the exchange, after all, that assumptions shouldn't be made.

Besides, it is a fine description of men. Or at least of me. And many men I know. (In fairness, many women too)

I mean, what's better than a bacon cheddar burger, a football game, and a hot chick? (feel free to sub in a good action film for the football game)

You misunderstand me. In its original context it's a humourous line that I always found funny.

However, it's also a very useful and quotable line when people start making generalisations.

 

[Michael Chris]

One of my all time favorite shows. I have lots of episodes on my phone that I watch frequently

 

[RoJoHen]

I started re-watching some random episodes of Buffy the other day, but I'm doing a lot of skipping just so I can get to the end of Season 3 and start re-watching Angel instead!

You can actually get the seasons of Angel for REALLY cheap. I didn't pay more than $15 for any of them.

 

[tharpdevenport]

I assure you -- it's been talked about here before.

One of my favorite shows. It has a number of flaws which I feel put it below BTVS, but there are episodes that are better than certain BTVS episode (and vice versa).


Check out Joss Whedon's official Season 6 comic series -- it's as good as show and surprisingly involved (I'm still not sure I got it all the first, or second time threw).

 

[Admiral Buzzkill]

Anya: "We could watch sports of some kind."
Xander: "Uh, I don't know."
Anya: "Men like sports. I'm sure of it."
Xander: "Yes, men like sports. Men watch the action movie. They eat of the beef and enjoy to look at the bosoms. A thousand years of avenging our wrongs, and that's all you've learned?"

I'm sorry, did she say something untrue there?

 

[RoJoHen]

Angel is also one of the few shows I've seen where characters in the end are dramatically different from where they started, and it happens very naturally and for good reason narrative reasons. Wesley and Cordelia fit this mold perfectly. I realize Charisma Carpenter might not be the best actress in the world, but she had some amazing scripts to work with. Cordelia in the first season of Buffy is totally different from Cordelia in the last season of Angel, yet you can very much believe that they are the same person. She learned and grew through her experiences in a very natural way.

 

[StarshipDefiant]

Anya: "We could watch sports of some kind."
Xander: "Uh, I don't know."
Anya: "Men like sports. I'm sure of it."
Xander: "Yes, men like sports. Men watch the action movie. They eat of the beef and enjoy to look at the bosoms. A thousand years of avenging our wrongs, and that's all you've learned?"

I'm sorry, did she say something untrue there?

Yes, because the point was she was saying "You're a man, you must like sports" when in actuality (as far as I recall). Xander finds sports about as fun/interesting as a...well, imagine the most discomforting medical procedure possible, and that;s what he thinks of sports. In otherwords, for a Vengeance Demon who's been around for some time, she was being extremely shortsighted.

 

[Thestral]

Anya: "We could watch sports of some kind."
Xander: "Uh, I don't know."
Anya: "Men like sports. I'm sure of it."
Xander: "Yes, men like sports. Men watch the action movie. They eat of the beef and enjoy to look at the bosoms. A thousand years of avenging our wrongs, and that's all you've learned?"

I'm sorry, did she say something untrue there?

Yes, because the point was she was saying "You're a man, you must like sports" when in actuality (as far as I recall). Xander finds sports about as fun/interesting as a...well, imagine the most discomforting medical procedure possible, and that;s what he thinks of sports. In otherwords, for a Vengeance Demon who's been around for some time, she was being extremely shortsighted.

Pfft, next you'll be telling us that not all men like action movies, or not all men enjoy a good steak, or not all men love to ogle women. C'mon, pull the other one.

 

[Ethros]

Indeed. After all, she's a Vengeance Demon. I don't know about you, but in my world Demons are bad things

Among others.


Maybe in your world. But it's not so black and white in the Buffyverse

 

[DonIago]

Still can't believe Andy Hallett's gone.

Not trivializing Glen Quinn...guess I just find that one easier to wrap my head around.

 

[The Borgified Corpse]

Indeed. After all, she's a Vengeance Demon. I don't know about you, but in my world Demons are bad things

Among others.

Maybe in your world. But it's not so black and white in the Buffyverse

Although, other than Clem, there really weren't any good demons on Buffy. One of the things I liked about Angel was its large populations of "not evil 'evil things.'"

Illyria was an awesome character though, and proved that Amy Acker can do something other then nerdy roles (although, as I said, I adored Fred), IMO the most challanging aspect was the "Illyria-as-Fred-as-Illyria" when Illyria disguised herself as Fred, there were moments when she still looked like Fred, but was Illyria. Awesome acting, IMO, the way her face went from the bubbly Fred to the blank, dead emotionless stare of Illyria.

I hated those moments, in a good way. Fred's death was so painful to begin with. Having Illyria impersonate that mockery of Fred was just twisting the knife.

 

[Obiwanshinobi]

I'm sure it wasn't that hard for Amy to toggle back and forth. Just acted as Illyria, but not in make up.

 

[RoJoHen]

^That's what was awesome about it. You knew it was Illyria from Amy's acting. You didn't NEED the makeup to tell you which character she was playing at a given time.