An Open Invitation to Janeway Fans

[froot]

I've been glib towards the "Bring Back Janeway" crowd because of the pure fact they just cannot act the way the act and have a firm grasp of reality.

Look, there are people out there shouting so loud the rest of us aren't even being heard. By "crowd" you actually mean a few people out of a whole hell of a lot more. Beyer never responds to anyone except the people making the most fuss and the back-and-forth quote wars hide any other discussion.

Do you guys just skim 80% of posts in threads like this or something so that you can keep this weird idea of a bunch of frothy-mouthed fangirls alive in your heads?

The ones who scream loudest and the most often usually drown out the more "down-to-earth" people. Just look at the Tea Party. Perhaps the more "down-to-earth" BBJ people need to renounce the more radical elements to be taken seriously.

I don't see why that's necessary. Honestly, most of the posts in here are pretty civil. (Well, in a TrekBBS kind of way.) I think folks are just skimming to quote-farm some of the most extreme examples, probably written out of anger.

I'm an uppity loudmouth myself, so I can't much renounce myself anyway. But I guess I'd encourage anyone wandering in to realize we're not all out to accuse Beyer of anything or think all this is rooted in sexism (although I did feel that way a year ago) or some other deeply sinister plot. She's a great author, IMO.

I'd say the lion's share of displeasure for this whole thing is felt towards PD anyway. At least that's how it is for me.

 

[NoStrings]

I don't see why that's necessary. Honestly, most of the posts in here are pretty civil. (Well, in a TrekBBS kind of way.) Honestly, I think folks are just skimming to quote-farm some of the most extreme examples, probably written out of anger.

I'm an uppity loudmouth myself, so I can't much renounce myself anyway. But I guess I'd encourage anyone wandering in to realize we're not all out to accuse Beyer of anything or think all this is rooted in sexism (although I did feel that way a year ago) or some other deeply sinister plot. She's a great author, IMO.

I'd say the lion's share of displeasure for this whole thing is felt towards PD anyway. At least that's how it is for me.

And let's be honest, BillJ...with ourselves and with each other, if we could. To be sooo into a TV show that you join a fandom board, you have to possess some level of zealous imbalance. I mean...you just do. I admit this about myself at least! But as always, there are levels and degrees. Some of us are just good old Janeway fans who loved her character and the show. We're the ones who are unhappy she was killed, particularly about how she was killed...by an author who doesn't seem to have cared about her character or liked her, and we will say so, but not scream it. We will also tend probably not to be too excited about books she's not in.

And there are those of us who will frame a napkin on our walls just because Kate Mulgrew's lips touched it...those kinds.

And, I'll bet you have just as many of both kinds in your particular niche of the fandom as we do. But please, if you are able to make the distinction between Janeway fans who aren't thrilled she's dead and those that are loudest, I'd appreciate it and will promise to afford you the same courtesy, should the need ever arise.

 

[froot]

And there are those of us who will frame a napkin on our walls just because Kate Mulgrew's lips touched it...those kinds.

Dammit. *slowly steps in front of framed napkin*

...What?

 

[NoStrings]

And there are those of us who will frame a napkin on our walls just because Kate Mulgrew's lips touched it...those kinds.

Dammit. *slowly steps in front of framed napkin*

...What?

Oops! Yes, quickly, let me totally clear with that one comment. I am NOT saying the loud "Bring Back Janeway" individuals necessarily ARE the hypothetical napkin framers. Just that we express our admiration for the character at different volumes and feel deeply about different causes to varying degrees.

 

[kimc]

I'm an uppity loudmouth myself,

Me too God Bless America!

What I'm really looking forward to being though is a crabby old lady. On that happy day I'm going to buy the largest cane my old flesh can carry and THWACK people who tick me off with it. Then I will waddle home, settle into my comfy chair and select a title from my stack of books featuring you-know-who. Hey, it's a dream...

In the meantime here are a few thoughts:

This thread could have gotten a heck of lot worse so I appreciate how it's gone so far. There have been some personal insults but luckily things didn't escalate. Just a reminder to those who feel they need to resort to that flaming is against the rules. Don't do it. You will be warned. If you see someone flaming just hit the 'notify' button and a mod will handle it. If there's someone who annoys you to the point where you're tempted to fall off the flaming wagon then just put that person on 'ignore' (note: announcing in public you've put them on 'ignore' is warnable). After all, isn't life short enough?

Now back to the important stuff like if there's an internet option for those of us who can't make the panel how on earth will we get crab cakes?

 

[Thestral]

I wish they would, too, but I'm not holding my breath. Out of three anthologies (nine stories/novelettes), only one was Voyager, and I thought it was mediocre, at best, just another "oops, we're going to have to settle somewhere" story that has been done better countless times in fanfic. Plus, I thought the Janeway was pretty much the Pocket Book stereotype--arrogant, controlling, cold, distant. If they write more, I hope someone writes it who can capture the more complex Janeway that I saw on the screen (and I think Beyer could easily do it).

OH GOOD someone else disliked 'Places of Exile." To be honest, I really liked the idea behind it - as far as "oh no, let's settle on a planet" stories go, it was cool. I'm a sucker for city ships.

But, like you said, KJ was OOC something fierce and like 50% of the story was just complaining about the series. Felt like reading a TBBS thread. I think KJ was only in there to be the shopping bag for Chakotay's baby - 'cause man, she was written badly, like a big jerk. If I can't even enjoy the J/C, something's wrong!

I'm okay with the alternate universe-type books and STO, actually. I just hope they eventually knock out a good VOY story. I can wait nicely. Beyer, Jarman, and Golden have all written pretty cool KJs, IMO.

Man... I adored Places of Exile. It touched on some of my favorite things about Voyager and I thought it was beautifully written. I thought PoE's version of Janeway was perfectly in-character and her realization that they were building a Delta Federation was wonderfully optimistic. The show could never have gone there of course, but settling down and really spreading Federation values and building something lasting was wonderful. Some of the places the story went were sad and tragic, but overall it's my favorite Voyager that's not part of Beyer's relaunch.

True enough about only getting one novella out of nine, but Enterprise hasn't really gotten any that were uniquely starring its characters, and DS9's also only got one primarily focused on those characters. Remember there's five televised series plus the movies.

 

[froot]

Now back to the important stuff like if there's an internet option for those of us who can't make the panel how on earth will we get crab cakes?

Now that is a valid question! Kinda hard to get good crab cakes here. Well, unless you consider Red Lobster a fine dining experience (I just go there for the butter.)

I suppose those of us watching along on the internet shall have to simply sit and make sad faces.

Regarding "Places of Exile," I should really note that I thought the Delta Federation was a cool idea, too, so totally agreed there. The story had just too many subtle and not-so-subtle digs for me to really sit back and enjoy it.

 

[kimc]

Now that is a valid question! Kinda hard to get good crab cakes here. Well, unless you consider Red Lobster a fine dining experience (I just go there for the butter.)

Cheddar biscuits. Oh sure, people SAY they're going for the seafood but we all know the truth.

It sounds like I'm going to have to check out "Places of Exile"...

 

[Thestral]

^ Do, it's worth checking out. Reasonably short too at about 100 pages.

Regarding "Places of Exile," I should really note that I thought the Delta Federation was a cool idea, too, so totally agreed there. The story had just too many subtle and not-so-subtle digs for me to really sit back and enjoy it.

I don't recall much in the way of digs... but maybe they were things I agreed with.

 

[froot]

^ Do, it's worth checking out. Reasonably short too at about 100 pages.

Regarding "Places of Exile," I should really note that I thought the Delta Federation was a cool idea, too, so totally agreed there. The story had just too many subtle and not-so-subtle digs for me to really sit back and enjoy it.

I don't recall much in the way of digs... but maybe they were things I agreed with.

Probably. I agreed with some of them, too, it's just that if I want to read a Voyager story, I just want to immerse myself in the story and not be pulled out of it. If I want to have a discussion about the good and bad parts of the show, I'll hit up the internet.

Some fanfic can bother me for the same reason if the author really has a bone to pick (humorous stories excepted, of course.) Like a J/C story where the author finds new and inventive ways to ruin Seven's day as some kind of punishment. Or a J/7 where they rag on Chuckles, or a C/7 where they make Janeway into a jerk...

EDIT: Like, there's a bit where the author inserts his opinion on "well, golly, why didn't Voyager scan for other Caretaker refugees early on?" Sure, good point, but gah. Not while I'm having some escapist fun reading a book! Characters shouldn't spout authors' opinions, they should spout their own.

EDIT AGAIN: Well, unless the character is created to spout the author's opinions.

 

[Kirsten Beyer]

Hello folks,

I have just started a new thread for the actual questions I will be answering during the panel. All relevant information is contained in the thread "Questions for Bring Back Janeway Panel." If you have questions for the panel, please post them there.

I look forward to answering them for you.

Best,
Kirsten Beyer

 

[JanewayRulz!]

And there are those of us who will frame a napkin on our walls just because Kate Mulgrew's lips touched it...those kinds.

Dammit. *slowly steps in front of framed napkin*

...What?

Oops! Yes, quickly, let me totally clear with that one comment. I am NOT saying the loud "Bring Back Janeway" individuals necessarily ARE the hypothetical napkin framers. Just that we express our admiration for the character at different volumes and feel deeply about different causes to varying degrees.

I don't recall you visiting my BBJ Shrine!

 

[Deano2099]

There are only two female characters from any of the series that have even had any kind of promotion in starfleet
...
Just because apparently characters are interchangeable for you, doesn't mean they are interchangeable for us. We want Kathryn Janeway, not some pale imitation made out of letters and paper.

You're trying to argue two points that contradict each other here. Your second one is right. Characters are unique and not interchangeable. Janeway is Janeway. No-one else is Janeway, and that's why people feel so passionately about the character. Because of how she was written and portrayed as a strong, unique individual. No-one can replace her.

But when you make that point, you can't then go turn this in to a gender-based argument. By saying Janeway was killed off because she was a woman, or how unfair it is that the only female captain has been killed off and the others haven't, you're reducing the hugely complex character of Janeway down to 'token woman'. So of course then people start saying 'look there are all these other women' and of course that's not good enough because Janeway was far more than that.

Oh Kestral has facts but he ignores the whole point of the statement and concentrates on what he believes will get him the most mileage twisting what I said just a little. I am talking about characters from the Television and Movies as they have been translated by Trek Lit. The appearance is very sexist.

You're also focusing on a very small part of Trek Lit that will get you the most mileage. To take your facts the other way, let's look again at them.

Male TV characters not promoted in Trek books: Picard, Sisko, Riker, Jake Sisko, Icheb and Neelix.
That's 6

Female TV characters not promoted in Trek books: Troi, Crusher, Kira, Seven of Nine, Janeway.
Oh, only 5.

TREK LIT IS SEXIST AGAINST MEN

To which of course you tell me that's unfair, as there were a lot less females in the TV casts to start with, to which I tell you: exactly. You want to talk about sexist, TV Trek was maybe sexist. Male-dominated casts, took four series to get a female Captain (and even in that series, they introduced a character pretty much designed as eye-candy for men).

I'd say Trek Lit has gone a long, long way towards redressing the gender balance in Trek in general, but yes, it's had to do that by introducing new characters because, frankly, the TV shows didn't give many to work with in the first place. For some reason you're not interested in talking about them. So there's not much more they can do.

I don't know if Trek Lit is sexist or not to be honest, I'm a white middle-class male with my privilege and I sure as hell can't judge. But I can say with absolute certainty that it's definitely less sexist than the TV shows were.

 

[Nick M]

Kirsten Beyer's BBJ Panel

Good afternoon all,

I recorded the "Bring Back Janeway" panel for Ms. Beyer, and it will be up by the end of the week for you to listen to. Sorry about the delay, just some tech issues, plus real life interfearing with getting it done faster. Thank you for your patience. I will post the link as soon as the audio goes up.

Have a great day.