Ok, one more time because you apparently don't get it. These guys are not the stars of the televised series, they are not Kathryn Janeway, they cannot take Kathryn Janeway's place. There are only two female characters from any of the series that have even had any kind of promotion in starfleet, while the only men from the original series that have not been elevated in power are, Picard, Riker, Sisko, Icheb, and Jake Sisko, and three of those don't count because they already had high positions. Just because apparently characters are interchangeable for you, doesn't mean they are interchangeable for us. We want Kathryn Janeway, not some pale imitation made out of letters and paper. I do get it that there are a lot of fans that think Trek is about space ships, but there are lots of fans that believe Trek is more, it is about characters.
Last I heard this thread was about books. The televised series ended long ago. This is about the book universe (which I admittedly don't care to follow much because I don't like the lack of quality in most treklit) so bringing up the fact that Janeway was more important in the TV show is kind of a petty argument. There's a big difference between stating that Janeway isn't interchangeable and complaining that what the authors did is "worse than killing our mothers". What some of us have issues with is the militant stance full of pathos that some of the Janeway fans seem to hold. It seems over-the-top. Do I need to bring up the "worse than killing our mothers"-quote again? At this point the conversation just turns into a farce. You are very, very wrong if you think that good writing and good characters means that those characters don't ever die. In fact the death of a major character can (if done right) be good for the plot, good for the development of other characters and be a strong end point for the dead character. Good stories don't always end with a happy ending that has everybody alive and well. Janeway dying doesn't make the story worse per se. It can also save a book series from going stale when it's always providing "same old, same old". What you are arguing for is: "Give us more of the same old, same old." Don't mistake that attitude for: "I want good characters." And stop being condescending by implying that those who don't mind Janeway's death only watch or read Trek because of the starships. That's insulting and certainly not helping your case.
^ Thanks! Le sigh. Seriously? Your answer is to call me a poopiehead? Argh...couple things here. First, do you mean "...had any kind of promotion in starfleet on screen"? Because within the books, we've had several examples of female characters from the series promoted. Captain Ezri Dax, Captain Sonya Gomez, Admiral Elizabeth Shelby, Captain Ro Laren, Admiral Nyota Uhura, off the top of my head. Of course, even saying that only two female characters "had any kind of promotion in starfleet on screen" isn't correct. Ensign Ro was promoted to Lieutenant just before "First Strike," Lt. Commander Troi was promoted to full Commander in "Thine Own Self," Lt. Commander (Doctor) Crusher was promoted to full Commander sometime before "Thine Own Self," Lt. Jadzia Dax was promoted to Lt. Commander sometime before "Way of the Warrior," and Ensign Ezri Dax was promoted to Lieutenant JG in "Afterimage." Not to mention Captain Janeway to Admiral of course. So by my count, that's at least 6. Technically Kira Nerys didn't get promoted in Starfleet on screen (except for a brief stint as a Starfleet Commander), but she was promoted from Major to Colonel in the Bajoran Militia and commanded Deep Space Nine for some time. Jake's a bad example of a man not getting promoted because he never joined Starfleet - which was a good decision for the character. He does get married in the books. Your head asplode.
I'll say. Hey, this one dude who was a Sonic fan was a jerk to me once. I figure all Sonic fans must be the same way. That logic works, right?
Hello, relative outsider here having only just joined up, currently reading Before Dishonour(alas); while some of the arguments being made by proponents of a returned Janeway could be considered hyperbolic, they are not entirely wrong when pointing out the dismissive attitude that many around here seem to have of both them and their core opinion. There seems to be a certain element on these boards, especially when seen by an outside observer as I have remained until recently, that holds anything even remotely related to Voyager with utter disdain, and further, who are very quick to extend that disdain to anyone who professes an alternative opinion. I'll reserve my final judgement on the issue until I slog through the remain hundred or so pages of B.D., but I'm a little despondent to see the attitude some people in this thread seem to have.
There are a few such posters. There's also posters that hold anything not-TOS in utter disdain, and people that hold TNG in utter disdain, and people that hold anything Joss Whedon creates in utter disdain. You'll always have people with very strong opinions, but it's the rare person who truly disdains somebody else for liking Voyager. Honestly, I wouldn't do that. I'd read "Full Circle" first because it's A. a book about the Voyager characters, B. a beautiful story in itself, and C. much better written overall.
Regardless of what you think of Janeway, her death, those that desire her return.. Before Dishonour is a horribly written book. I can't believe they even published it.
I thought Before Dishonor was an easy and fun read, kinda like a Big Dumb Action Movie in Treklit form. But certainly not the "death" Janeway deserved. It was more on par with Trip's demise than Spock's.
Spoiler: How Janeway died She was assimilated by the Borg and modified to become their new Queen, however she broke through the collective conciousness long enough to allow Seven of Nine to plant the "Endgame Virus" which blew up the cube and took Janeway with it.
Captain M gave the dramatic heroic version. Here's another one. Spoiler: Janeway's Death She got eaten by a wall - maybe a floor - when she beamed aboard a Borg cube alone. Captain M's version is better of course.
But then, of course... Spoiler: and then It ends with Mrs Q ascending Janeway to the Continuum in the most blantantly telegraphed nondeath ever. I read the book waiting to read the fall of Janeway and SHE DOESN'T ACTUALLY DIE!!!
Sometimes that is the only word that works. You are reading what I said wrong (we are talking about Trek Literature), the only characters I was counting were the main characters from the NG era series and since you all don’t know the difference from a main character and a recurring character I will give you the list. These are main characters that are active at the end of the NG movie era. To simplify for you the main characters from NG to the end of NG, DS9 to the end of DS9, Voyager to the end of Voyager and then to the end of Nemesis. NG: Picard, Riker, Troi, Crusher, La Forge, and Worf (Data is left out because at the end of Nemesis he is dead, or at least partially dead) DS9 – Sisko, Kira, Jake, Bashir, O’Brian, Quark, Odo, Ezri Dax and Worf. (Jadzia is dead and doesn’t count either.) Voyager – Janeway, Chakotay, Paris, Kim, the Doctor, Seven of Nine, Tuvok, Torres, Icheb and Neelix (and I did leave Neelix out but you are free to put him in as it only jacks up the percentage and works against the male side anyway, but feel free to use him. You can even put Wesley Crusher in but again that works to the advantage of my original premise.) I was also referring to promotions given only after the filmed versions, those given only by Trek Lit authors, so Janeway’s promotion doesn’t count because we “SAW” it. You put “on screen” not me, I was referring to only promotions given within Trek Literature. So you can throw out all your list because those were on screen promotions, or they were recurring characters, not main characters. You also made my case with Jake, exactly he wasn’t in Starfleet, so he couldn’t be promoted. So again within the structure of Trek Literature; the only males not given some kind of promotion (or a raise in stature as is the case of Odo and Quark) are Picard, Sisko, Riker, (his promotion is on screen), Jake Sisko, Icheb and now Neelix. Three are already holding high ranking or are those that for obvious reasons cannot be promoted. The only females promoted are B’Elanna Torres and Ezri Dax. It is Trek Literature that has the problem with writing female characters, it is Trek Literature that marginalizes female main characters. Recurring characters and one shot characters even if we see them on screen are today more the characters of Trek Literature, and not the Main characters of the series. And therefore Shelby is a character of words and paper, as is Sonya Gomez and Ro Laren. Ezri Dax is the darling of Trek Lit, but even she is put off on her own ship were she cannot give orders to any of the males. Janeway had to be gotten rid of because she was in the position where she could and horrors, she actually did give Picard orders. So now do you get what I have said. The appearance is that Trek Literature is full of Sexism, like it or not that is the appearance, and when you tell Janeway fans to get over it, you add to that perception. When you tell Janeway fans to just switch over to a new female character, you are really saying females are interchangeable and expendable. “You don't have to "have" sexist "attitudes" to be sexist. You just have to inhabit a sexist structure and not contest it.” – Kenneth James http://www.sfsignal.com/archives/20...of-the-russ-pledge-for-science-fiction-today/ The main characters from the series, already have a character, they already have followings and there is no way Shelby, Admiral or not, can take the place in a fan’s heart like Kathryn Janeway who started as a character made of words and paper, but became a whole and very real feeling character largely through the talents of Kate Mulgrew. This is the same kind of feeling you get for Sisko, who owes his wholeness to Avery Brooks, and Picard who came to life because of Patrick Stewart’s talent. It’s very hard to bring a character to life with only words and paper, and it takes the willingness of the reader to complete that circle. Trek.com participated in a survey, they found out among other things that only one percent of Trek fans come to the Trek BBS, and they found out that 71 % of Trek fans are female, and 66% of those female fans are in the 41-50 age group. These are the people that actually do buy and read books. http://startrek.com/article/following-fandom-the-ongoing-analysis-part-i http://startrek.com/article/following-fandom-the-ongoing-analysis-part-2 "Murder of the living is tragic, but murder of the idea is unforgivable." And yes Trek Literature through the words of Peter David did try to murder the dreams of many, many female fans and that is unforgivable.
They did such a good job of "murdering" Janeway that she's mentioned in every new Voyager book. Of course you'd know that if you'd open your eyes.
Dear Mrs Beyer Thanks for invitation. Unfortunately I don't have the time or money for a trip oveseas right now, otherwise I would really have enjoyed a friendly and polite discussion about this subject. I would also like to give you credit for planning to discuss this matter with the Janeway fans. To be honest, I can't remember when someone in charge of something regarding Star Trek has wanted to actually listen to and debate with fans of the show. Thanks for that! As for my own opinion, it's still the same when it comes to Janeway's presence in future books.
Thank you for defining your terms and explaining that you're only talking within the context of TrekLit itself. However, I reject your statement that only onscreeen "credited" characters count and reject your list. Because, since we're talking about TrekLit, you have to take into account the fact that it's a different medium and there are different main characters. You can't simply reject the "New Frontier" book series, which has been going for 14 years. Fourteen. Years. That's as long as Deep Space Nine and Voyager put together, and while the volume of material's not as great (due to being a book series) it's become a staple of Pocket's Trek Literature. The Star Trek: Starfleet Corps of Engineers was published from 2000 to 2008 and has 74 novellas to its name; it's no longer published but had an important role in TrekLit as well. Likewise the DS9 Relaunch spans (thus far) 19 novels in which Ro Laren was/is a primary character. That's just ridiculous. You're aware that - within the Prime universe of TrekLit - the President of the Federation is a woman? And her Chief of Staff? Anyway, words and paper's all we got. They're not going to make more onscreen Trek with these 24th Century characters... anymore! Even if Janeway somehow does appear on screen again (unlikely) she'll be recast. Within the context of TrekLit, all characters are words and paper. And within the context of TrekLit your listing of "main characters" doesn't apply. Don't tell me the characters that weren't credited during the run of DS9 "don't count" in the Relaunch. Oh, which reminds me, I forgot Christine Vale, XO of Titan and a main character within that series. So make that at least five main characters (within the context of TrekLit!) that are female and have been promoted. Now you're just being silly. When did being put on her own ship become a bad thing? And she does give orders to the males, obviously. You may not know this, but her XO on Aventine is Sam Bowers, one of the main characters from the DS9 Relaunch. Also, she went toe-to-toe with Picard in Destiny and, rather than backing down, convinced him to go along with the plan she (and another female Captain, Erika Hernandez) came up with. In fact if anything, the male "leading Captains" (Picard and Riker) were relatively useless compared to the female captains (Dax and Hernandez) in that trilogy. So that dog don't hunt.
Kestrel, How dare you bring facts into this discussion! They have no place here! Signed, A delusional, militant Janeway fan.