• Welcome! The TrekBBS is the number one place to chat about Star Trek with like-minded fans.
    If you are not already a member then please register an account and join in the discussion!

American research shows Moffat to be sexist

How the hell was it better with RTD?

No fetish costumes?

Hey for every WPC outfit Rory got dressed up as a Roman so it's equal opportunities. And yeah Karen had a short skirt to emphasise her legs, same as Rose wore lots of scanty vest tops and Martha was squeezed into tight jeans and that cropped leather jacket to ensure you were in no doubt how nice her bum was.


The Bechdel Test is, of course, something of a joke. It's a joke with it's heart in the right place, intended to raise an important point about women in the media, but plenty of things that are sexist as hell can pass it, whilst media featuring strong female charcter can actually fail it.

Of course things have been different under Moff. Firstly there's Rory to consider, and the appearance of a third male companion is going to skew things. So of course Amy will get less dialogue because there's less to go around, so it's a shame Clara isn't in this survey yet.

It's also worth noting that all three of RTD's companions had mums who played significant parts in their stories which I guess skewed things somewhat as well, and for all that you can argue that Jackie and the other two are strong female role models, you could also argue that they're caracatured female harridans that don't exactly provide good role models. By contrast under Moffat we've had no mums really, just one significant dad who, hurrah, wasn't a blistering idiot like all of RTD's were.

What this comes down to, as usual, is that those who hate Moffat will see one thing, and those who don't will see something else.

Or, to quote Richard Herring, you can prove anything with facts...
 
With RTD, he had, what, two dim-witted bimbos (okay, only one was dim-witted, but even though Martha was a doctor, she was still treated like she was, too) who were madly in love with the Doctor (three if you count Kylie Minogue), one of which was unrequited, and another one who was a loud-mouthed bitch of a woman who, not surprisingly, was also rather dim-witted.

"Bimbo". "Dim-Witted". "Loud-Mouthed Bitch".

Big fan of Elliot Rodger I'm guessing?

Remind me again what you once called Carey Mulligan? Not even the character, the actress. I think it started with a B...
 
Vastra and Jenny? How can anyone possibly see them as Sexist against Women?

They're a couple of Male Fantasy Lesbians-In-Name-Only with a SF twist.
Eh, I can't imagine there's a whole lot of men (Strax) who fantasize about being dominated by women (Vastra and Jenny) they can't have and that have absolutely Zero interest in them, but, to each their own :shrug:
 
I have no real issue about someone criticizing Moffat about his female characters (I know I have). My problem is he gets an unjustifiable amount of focus for it, with little to no attention is paid to RTD's time on the show.

Rose for example started off great. However by the time of her first departure her entire existence revolved around the Doctor. Journeys End took that even further. As far as the show was concerned, her only real purpose was to heal the Doctor and was even lampshaded in Journeys End when the Doctor handed her his angry clone. She was at best a plot device for series one, which is why her characterization took such a dive in series two after she had fulfilled her usefulness.

Martha was simply the rebound girl and married/partnered to two blokes she barely had dialogue with. That's even worse than Leela's departure in the Invasion in Time.

Donna was excellent, but even then we had the whole reset button at the end, putting her back to where she started.

Amy was sharing the TARDIS with Rory for the most part, while the majority of RTD's run had a solitary female companion.

As for River Song... Most of the time she appeared, the TARDIS had a crew of three (including the Doctor). So that's dialogue shared among four characters and yet she still came out so high.

Remind me again what you once called Carey Mulligan? Not even the character, the actress. I think it started with a B...

Oh man, I remember that.
 
I'd be interested in running the Bechdel test on the seventh Doctor's era. My wife and I noted how often the show gave Ace another girl to talk to (to her benefit as a character).
 
This sounds like a case of "If you look at it hard enough, everything is sexist".

But hey, I'm a man, so what do I know? I'm just a female oppressing pig.

Vastra and Jenny? How can anyone possibly see them as Sexist against Women?

They're a couple of Male Fantasy Lesbians-In-Name-Only with a SF twist.

Right, because everyone knows that all lesbians are fat and ugly. :rolleyes:
 
I didn't notice anyone mentioning this yet, but the article in the OP was updated after this thread started with response on this matter from the BBC:

Faith Penhale, BBC’s Head of Drama Wales says: “The BBC refute claims that Doctor Who is a sexist show under Steven Moffat, strong female lead characters are at the heart of his writing. The BBC is hugely appreciative of all of Steven’s work. ”
 
With RTD, he had, what, two dim-witted bimbos (okay, only one was dim-witted, but even though Martha was a doctor, she was still treated like she was, too) who were madly in love with the Doctor (three if you count Kylie Minogue), one of which was unrequited, and another one who was a loud-mouthed bitch of a woman who, not surprisingly, was also rather dim-witted.

"Bimbo". "Dim-Witted". "Loud-Mouthed Bitch".

Big fan of Elliot Rodger I'm guessing?

While not condoning Fandago's choice of words, what you've said is even lower. There's a much better way of calling someone out besides invoking the name of a mentally ill man who just murdered a bunch of people.

Shame on you.
 
Even Gravity would fail the author mentions even though it just had a female lead.
Sure, the Bechdel test is not perfect and not passing does not automatically make a work sexist, it's still very interesting to compare the numbers.

Flip the genders around, how often do you think works of fiction would fail a male Bechdel test? Not very often because there are almost always several male characters around and they always find something else than a woman to talk about.

Even Gravity with its three or four named characters would pass a male Bechdel test.
 
My daughter likes to pretend to be River Song because she's the only person the Daleks are scared of. So Moffat gets a pass from me.
 
American students, nuff said.. or should it really be Liberalist-professors?? Sexism..what just because a woman is in a tight outfit thats sexist, she is not allowed to be beautiful? really? So how about just dressing her up in a burka or a HIJAAB ..then no claims can be made.. and male viewers will probably tune out.. great strategy..
 
So there are only two options for a woman then? Either in as sexy outfit or effectively a sack? As I’ve said earlier, the Bechdal Test is a daft thing to hang a theory on, but at its heart it does have a valid point to make, the trouble is that it doesn’t necessarily mean the two woman having a conversation will be at all empowered. Two woman having a conversation about shoes passes, two woman having a conversation about the political ramifications of Obama’s time in office fails.

I had a look at the list of episodes that failed the Bechdal test by the way. It would seem to be a fair assumption that if an episode isn’t mentioned it passed the test, no? If so the following episodes passed the Bechdal test.

The Doctor Dances
Blink
Silence in the Library
Forest of the Dead
The Beast Below
The Time of Angels
Flesh and Stone
The Pandorica Opens
Big Bang
The Impossible Astronaut
A Good Man Goes to War
The Doctor the Widow and the Wardrobe

You know I’m sure all those episodes have something in common but I just can’t put my finger on what it is…

And for those who feel a woman writer would resolve the issue, it’s amusing to note that of the 4 episodes written by a woman 50% of them fail the test.
 
I wouldn't say Moffat is sexist. His vision for his characters and their respective stories make it seems that he's bias.

For example

Amy is best friends with the Doctor. Her imaginary pal she met as a child and insisted to everyone that he was real growing up. Played make-believe with Rory and Mels about him. As a young woman, Amy fancied the Doctor and ran away with him to live out her childhood dreams the night before her wedding. However she was always intent on marrying Rory. The love triangle between her, the Doctor and Rory; (most prevalent in series 5 and briefly alluded to in series 6) made it appear Amy was focused on the Doctor more than anything. It was Moffat's attempt at inserting an undercurrent of drama between his characters. The culmination of that drama we see in "The Angel's Take Manhattan", when Amy decides she rather live out her life with Rory, than continue traveling with the Doctor without him. Take away the love triangle aspect and you can call Amy, Rose 2.0.

River is the Doctor's wife but was also trained to kill him by Madame Kavorian and the Silence. Naturally River's character revolves around the Doctor. Again I attribute this Moffat's style of story telling. His out of order story telling kept River's origins and motivations unknown through series 5 till the finale of series 6. Had Moffat told River's story linearly (beginning with "A Good Man Goes To War") I don't think there would be mixed feelings about her and the Doctor's relationship. Moffat tried to instill mystery surrounding River, YMMV whether he was successful or not. However by series 7, we are set in knowing River and the Doctor are married, and the Doctor's relationship with Rory and Amy is one of best friends/family.

Moffat seems to have a penchant for family and marriage and that sort of thing. That was his end game in setting up the Doctor, Amy, Rory and River's jumbled relationship in series 5. We the audience couldn't see the full picture until series 7.

Other female characters like Jenny, Vashtra, Sally Sparrow, Nancy (Empty Child, Doctor Dances), are written as very competent women, and none of their lives revolve around a man.


As for the RTD era
The women make out quite well here as well.
While the love interest angle was played up in series 2 and series 4 concluded with Rose x Tentoo. Rose was still a fleshed out character who served out our (the audience) gateway character in to Doctor Who. Rose is great in series 1, when she is more of an observer and someone to contrast the Doctor's POV. Series 2 and 4 Rose had great moments as well, it's just her priorities in seemed to orbit the Doctor a lot. She did help Donna in Turn Left, which in turn helped save the universe. That's something.

Martha was also developed great in series 3 and 4. I really dislike RTD's treatment of Martha as a companion because it's all wrong. RTD referenced Rose way to frequently in series 3. It's bad because it doesn't make the new actor/companion feel welcome, and the only reason to continuously reference Rose was because she was famous to us (the audience). Other Doctor's lose companions and never bring them up again or lament their loss. Too much Rose wanking by RTD. However Martha still had an arc, assisted in saving the Earth from the Master and the year that never was, and put he knowledge towards defending the Earth as a member of UNIT. Martha standing up for herself at the conclusion of series 3 is one of, if not her best moment. Martha is a selfless person, she gives all to others with little regard for herself. To see her tell the Doctor she's living for her own reasons, and is not willing to play number 2 to another person (Rose) is a selfish act that shows that Martha does not need the Doctor to validate or acknowledge her. Martha achieved her own self validation by her deeds in series 3.

Donna is the Doctor's best friend. Not romantic angle or romantic subtext. Donna too had an arc and made a change during her story. Donna was an insecure person, who didn't think she had worth. All through series 4 Donna proves that she does have worth. Appealing to the Doctor's sense of pathos/emotions and changing the fates of persons throughout time and space. By "Journey's End" Donna achieved her full potential and assisted in the defeat of the Dalek Empire and rescue of the 27 planets. The tragedy of Donna's character is that she doesn't remember anything she did from series 3 ("Runaway Bride") to series 4. Giving us the audience a bittersweet reflection when we revisit her character.
 
I wouldn't say he's sexist either - at least not actively. A lot of this has to do with how he has made the show more internal - the adventures are about the Doctor rather than exploring new worlds hence so many conversations are about him.

It does however lead to some unfortunate moments - he made such a big deal of who River but really he only presents what it means to the Doctor. Amy and River barely have any screen time together and when they do they only really talk about him. You think a mother and daughter might have more to say.

Also the key usefulness of the test is what it shows in broad outlines rather than individual examples - no one is saying that because (for example, it might actually pass for all I know) The Godfather fails the test it shouldn't have been made or is a bad film or films like it shouldn't be made in future - but when something like 80% of films don't pass then maybe we should be thinking about why that is the case.
 
American students, nuff said.. or should it really be Liberalist-professors?? Sexism..what just because a woman is in a tight outfit thats sexist, she is not allowed to be beautiful? really? So how about just dressing her up in a burka or a HIJAAB ..then no claims can be made.. and male viewers will probably tune out.. great strategy..


I like how, in your world, it's either tight outfits or a burka.

Edited to add:

I like how it's "allowing" her to be beautiful. Who do you think is making the decision of what she's wearing? Who do you think is making the decision what is "beautiful."

I'm just totally shocked at the casual sexism that exists in sci-fi/fantasy fans. To write off the pretty constant objectification and fetishism of women in sci-fi and fantasy (hell there's a dumb babe of the week thread here--basically, do you want to fuck this chick?)... to write it all off as... "don't you want woman to be beautiful?" without asking who is making the decisions about that AND, maybe there should be more to a character than just hot or not, or how she feels about a man.

Good Grodd, I always thought sci-fans were FORWARD thinking...
 
Last edited:
So there are only two options for a woman then? Either in as sexy outfit or effectively a sack? As I’ve said earlier, the Bechdal Test is a daft thing to hang a theory on, but at its heart it does have a valid point to make, the trouble is that it doesn’t necessarily mean the two woman having a conversation will be at all empowered. Two woman having a conversation about shoes passes, two woman having a conversation about the political ramifications of Obama’s time in office fails.

I had a look at the list of episodes that failed the Bechdal test by the way. It would seem to be a fair assumption that if an episode isn’t mentioned it passed the test, no? If so the following episodes passed the Bechdal test.

The Doctor Dances
Blink
Silence in the Library
Forest of the Dead
The Beast Below
The Time of Angels
Flesh and Stone
The Pandorica Opens
Big Bang
The Impossible Astronaut
A Good Man Goes to War
The Doctor the Widow and the Wardrobe

You know I’m sure all those episodes have something in common but I just can’t put my finger on what it is…

And for those who feel a woman writer would resolve the issue, it’s amusing to note that of the 4 episodes written by a woman 50% of them fail the test.

I don't know, what about the one where Rose and The Doctor ends up on new New York, and Cassandra.. I mean the Doctor was possessed in that, and not being a stereotype of a woman, but a caricature of the character Cassandra...Because the actual actress wasn't depicted until the end, so until that point she is just skin stretched across bars..
 
American students, nuff said.. or should it really be Liberalist-professors?? Sexism..what just because a woman is in a tight outfit thats sexist, she is not allowed to be beautiful? really? So how about just dressing her up in a burka or a HIJAAB ..then no claims can be made.. and male viewers will probably tune out.. great strategy..


I like how, in your world, it's either tight outfits or a burka.

Edited to add:

I like how it's "allowing" her to be beautiful. Who do you think is making the decision of what she's wearing? Who do you think is making the decision what is "beautiful."

I'm just totally shocked at the casual sexism that exists in sci-fi/fantasy fans. To write off the pretty constant objectification and fetishism of women in sci-fi and fantasy (hell there's a dumb babe of the week thread here--basically, do you want to fuck this chick?)... to write it all off as... "don't you want woman to be beautiful?" without asking who is making the decisions about that AND, maybe there should be more to a character than just hot or not, or how she feels about a man.

Good Grodd, I always thought sci-fans were FORWARD thinking...

I say this in all respect, as you misunderstood my simple and short example..(and as I consider you a friend, I just disagree politely on some things)

I think if someone is very sensitive, and always looking for sexism, racism, anti-sexual preference-ism, coded bigotry words, conspiracy theories of mass extinction of a particular group, or just assuming that two examples constitutes the whole of an idea, and not just an example, without listing a plethora of outfits, and going into the whole bikini thing vs swimsuit..well..

If someone is Always searching for certain things of that nature, they will Always find it, whether it exists legitimately or not..

that said.. Jo grant. Now that, that was Sexist...Not to mention Leala.. Tho, not sure how they could have not been with her being in context, a savage..??
 
American students, nuff said.. or should it really be Liberalist-professors?? Sexism..what just because a woman is in a tight outfit thats sexist, she is not allowed to be beautiful? really? So how about just dressing her up in a burka or a HIJAAB ..then no claims can be made.. and male viewers will probably tune out.. great strategy..


I like how, in your world, it's either tight outfits or a burka.

Edited to add:

I like how it's "allowing" her to be beautiful. Who do you think is making the decision of what she's wearing? Who do you think is making the decision what is "beautiful."

I'm just totally shocked at the casual sexism that exists in sci-fi/fantasy fans. To write off the pretty constant objectification and fetishism of women in sci-fi and fantasy (hell there's a dumb babe of the week thread here--basically, do you want to fuck this chick?)... to write it all off as... "don't you want woman to be beautiful?" without asking who is making the decisions about that AND, maybe there should be more to a character than just hot or not, or how she feels about a man.

Good Grodd, I always thought sci-fans were FORWARD thinking...

I say this in all respect, as you misunderstood my simple and short example..(and as I consider you a friend, I just disagree politely on some things)

Perhaps then, if you don't want to be misunderstood, you should make your points more clearly, and not use a binary example of tight clothing or burka, or "liberalist" professor--whatever that is. All I see in your post "they're overreacting, they are SO overreacting, it's just women being beautiful.. come on...!"

I think you are very smart poster, very conscientious, that's why I'm a little surprised at your post.

I think if someone is very sensitive, and always looking for sexism, racism, anti-sexual preference-ism, coded bigotry words, conspiracy theories of mass extinction of a particular group, or just assuming that two examples constitutes the whole of an idea, and not just an example, without listing a plethora of outfits, and going into the whole bikini thing vs swimsuit..well..

If someone is Always searching for certain things of that nature, they will Always find it, whether it exists legitimately or not..

Sure. But, sometimes people don't want to hear that the thing they love just MIGHT be sexist. So, they are willing to close their eyes and plug their ears and so, "They are just being sensitive, they are just being sensitive. There's nothing wrong with the show that I love."

Sometimes fans are very willing to look the other way. And write off the experience of others. Rather than take some time and listen.

that said.. Jo grant. Now that, that was Sexist...Not to mention Leala.. Tho, not sure how they could have not been with her being in context, a savage..??

I don't know, give Leela some fucking pants?
 
The bias is so blatant it's hilarious. The person who did the research was just a Who fan with an axe to grind, nothing more. And using the Bechdel test of all things... The Bechdel test is interesting but at the end of the day it's not a method of study, it's a joke in a comic. It about as rigorous and scientific as a drinking game.
 
If you are not already a member then please register an account and join in the discussion!

Sign up / Register


Back
Top