Altered Timeline: Which events will still happen?

[M'Sharak]

Completely overwriting TOS to the point it is unrecognizably would not be faithful to that now would it?

You'll note, however, that the majority of people spending much time at all talking about how this movie will overwrite (completely or otherwise) TOS or any other Trek which has previously appeared on-screen are those in a constant snit because J.J. hasn't made the same (slavishly faithful in all ways to the Original Series) movie which they would have made, had they been given the keys to the franchise. Even among those who have often said that they don't care for a lot of the creative choices made by the filmmakers, there aren't many who seriously believe that this movie overwrites anything which came before.

Roberto Orci even slyly alluded to that notion, at one point:

Bob [Orci]: Yes, and you will notice that whenever the movie comes out, that whatever DVDs you have purchased will continue to exist.

Those DVDs or VHS tapes, those video files on your hard disk, those reruns airing on Spike, and everything else -- those won't disappear; they will all still be Star Trek.

 

[Nerys Myk]

Completely overwriting TOS to the point it is unrecognizably would not be faithful to that now would it?

You'll note, however, that the majority of people spending much time at all talking about how this movie will overwrite (completely or otherwise) TOS or any other Trek which has previously appeared on-screen are those in a constant snit because J.J. hasn't made the same (slavishly faithful in all ways to the Original Series) movie which they would have made, had they been given the keys to the franchise. Even among those who have often said that they don't care for a lot of the creative choices made by the filmmakers, there aren't many who seriously believe that this movie overwrites anything which came before.

Roberto Orci even slyly alluded to that notion, at one point:

Bob [Orci]: Yes, and you will notice that whenever the movie comes out, that whatever DVDs you have purchased will continue to exist.

Those DVDs or VHS tapes, those video files on your hard disk, those reruns airing on Spike, and everything else -- those won't disappear; they will all still be Star Trek.

We're here for all your Star Trek stuff.

 

[Caretaker]

I guess it all depends on how much you believe in the butterfly effect. Aside from the events of the movie, most everything else cold still happen as it did in the original timeline. Or, it could all totally be different from here on out.

My thought, as with the original poster's, is some events already in motion before the timeline change won't be affected (Probe, V'Ger, Nomad, et al.). I would need to look more closely at a Star Trek timeline to figure out which events after 2233 or so wouldn't likely be affected by Nero and Spock's interference.

 

[pookha]

The "canon" of Trek Time Travel stories has always been; the orignal, prime timelime must always be preserved as much as possible.

Completely overwriting TOS to the point it is unrecognizably would not be faithful to that now would it? It goes against the producers claim this film fits within canon. (see above)

Starting a new separate timeline using Quantum Mechanics, (which btw is a real Science, not just some made up word with no meanings) does fit established canon in that the original timeline is preserved and I maintain, until proven otherwise by the Film, where they went with this.

Why are some of you are so hell-bent to see the original timeline destroyed... just to piss off and have something to lord over anyone who cares about that, is beyond me.

jeez did you watch assigment earth.
they were just lucky that things in the end seemingly worked as they were supposed to.
what i was talking about that within trek how much the time line was able to change seemed to be connected with the mode of travel.
with the guardian for some reason being the most dangerous.
i mean bones just happens to be put in a place to have an immense effect just by saving one life.,
who knows what happened when the vagrant died who wasnt supposed to die.

in assignment earth they were pretty sloppy in how they handled stuff.
it is suprising things were not changed.
and in voyage home they even took some one from the past without checking to see what her future may have been/

and beyond time travel tos if the story need was there would rewrite its previous canon on the issue.

and no you cant rewrite tos with all the dvds and the show still being shown in syndication.

 

[Lyon_Wonder]

I think it's an entirely NU-Universe.

Like the TOS USS Defiant ending up in the 22nd century Mirror Universe.

 

[Lieut. Arex]

Agree 100% - Hawking alone blew that bit of drama out of the water. What I put up there is barely a joke: the most brilliant man on the planet is in the same shape right now. I don't see him sitting around publishing his next book in morse code. No matter what an alternate Pike goes through, he's sure as hell not going to be beeping.

I've stated as much elsewhere. Hawking's ability to speak mechanically today means the 1960's version of Pike's chair is already obsolete-- even by today's standards. It also highlights the need for a revamping of Star Trek so that it appeals to an audience living in the 21st century.

The thing is as Hawking's disease progresses, it's getting more difficult for him to communicate. If you saw the Science Channel (I think) show on black holes, watching his aide try to work with him writing a paper was pretty tough stuff as he kept trying to guess what Hawking meant because it takes so long for him to write. Admittedly, one would think Pike should have been able to do Morse Code at a minimum if not select a range of words or symbols to communicate more easily but if the damage to his brain was severe enough, it may be that's all he can do.

No doubt the real world explanation is GR thought the chair as presented was pretty far out but that it emphasized the tragedy of the character's condition if all the poor bastard could do is beep a couple of times.

 

[Procutus]

My thought, as with the original poster's, is some events already in motion before the timeline change won't be affected (Probe, V'Ger, Nomad, et al.). I would need to look more closely at a Star Trek timeline to figure out which events after 2233 or so wouldn't likely be affected by Nero and Spock's interference.

I was thinking of doing much the same thing, pulling out my copy of the Star Trek Chronology and reviewing the eps to see what events would have the least likelihood of being affected by Nero's intrusion.

Will try to post a few of those tomorrow, if I find any that seem to fit the bill.

 

[Sector 7]

Agree 100% - Hawking alone blew that bit of drama out of the water. What I put up there is barely a joke: the most brilliant man on the planet is in the same shape right now. I don't see him sitting around publishing his next book in morse code. No matter what an alternate Pike goes through, he's sure as hell not going to be beeping.

I've stated as much elsewhere. Hawking's ability to speak mechanically today means the 1960's version of Pike's chair is already obsolete-- even by today's standards. It also highlights the need for a revamping of Star Trek so that it appeals to an audience living in the 21st century.

The thing is as Hawking's disease progresses, it's getting more difficult for him to communicate. If you saw the Science Channel (I think) show on black holes, watching his aide try to work with him writing a paper was pretty tough stuff as he kept trying to guess what Hawking meant because it takes so long for him to write. Admittedly, one would think Pike should have been able to do Morse Code at a minimum if not select a range of words or symbols to communicate more easily but if the damage to his brain was severe enough, it may be that's all he can do.

No doubt the real world explanation is GR thought the chair as presented was pretty far out but that it emphasized the tragedy of the character's condition if all the poor bastard could do is beep a couple of times.

I saw that, but my uncle succumbed to Lou Gehrig's Disease after a prolonged battle. His eye-blinks allowed him to communicate in response to flash cards of words or letters. An old widower from his church would write down his responses. This is how he left letters to his wife and children.
After his death, I watched a science program where those same blinks were captured by a computer program. Now we have T9 options to finish such words and phrases as part of our cell phone devices. Technology grows and by the 23rd century I am sure it will improve even more.

Also, according to The Menagerie, Pike's brain was fine. His body just could not respond. Thus, the aliens could give him a life Pike could enjoy with his lady friend.

 

[Admiral Buzzkill]

Yeah, the "yes or no" stuff for Pike was simply the result of a hastily-constructed story designed to make a two-part clip show work.

You'd think if nothing else, they'd know how to play twenty questions.

 

[Lieut. Arex]

Also, according to The Menagerie, Pike's brain was fine. His body just could not respond. Thus, the aliens could give him a life Pike could enjoy with his lady friend.

I was thinking more in terms of the damage interfering with their ability to connect to his brain. The set up of the chair has no direct visible connections to his head. Twenty-third century brain surgery in many ways doesn't seem much more advanced than that of 1966.

As you say, today we're better able to communicate with someone in Pike's condition than as shown in "The Menagerie". With simply "yes" and "no" or in binary, 0 and 1, Pike should have been able to write anything he wanted. Time, ignorance, and dramatic effect shaped what was done. Today, it would be significantly different.

 

[The Academic]

Why are some of you are so hell-bent to see the original timeline destroyed... just to piss off and have something to lord over anyone who cares about that, is beyond me.

Destroyed? Oh man, you sure lost me there. This is just ridiculous. Nothing is going to be destroyed.

Oh, why do I even bother anymore?

See?
That's also the reason why I stopped posting.
What people call 'debating' around here is just like the proverbial one-armed man trying to clap his hands.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

As you say, today we're better able to communicate with someone in Pike's condition than as shown in "The Menagerie". With simply "yes" and "no" or in binary, 0 and 1, Pike should have been able to write anything he wanted. Time, ignorance, and dramatic effect shaped what was done.

And apparently TPTB didn't consider that any Vulcan should have been able to do a frickin' MIND MELD with Pike. Spock was right there, in fact!

 

[USS Renegade]

Agree 100% - Hawking alone blew that bit of drama out of the water. What I put up there is barely a joke: the most brilliant man on the planet is in the same shape right now. I don't see him sitting around publishing his next book in morse code. No matter what an alternate Pike goes through, he's sure as hell not going to be beeping.

He will still beep when he backs up!

 

[Temis the Vorta]

Anything not directly contradicted by the movie and and will still happen because if it's not rendered impossible, why shouldn't it happen?

I'll know we're in an alternate timeline if Chekov's brother shows up, someone mentions that the entire tribble species was exterminated in 2207, Kirk confesses to his great love for old Clark Gable movies, or Spock successfully executes a Vulcan death grip.

In order to contradict canon, the writers are going to have to go out of their way - why bother?

I guess it all depends on how much you believe in the butterfly effect.

If there is more than one timeline, then it stands to reason that there is an infinite number of timelines. Why stop at, say, 1,283,493,938? The right number is either one or infinity (or if you're being cute, 0).

If there are an infinite number of timelines, then every possible sequence of events that could occur does occur in one of them. So why can't "this" timeline be the one where the only difference is the events of this movie and everything else is completely identical to TOS-TNG-DS9-VOY-ENT and the animated series if you insist? That timeline exists, so why shouldn't we adopt it as our own?

That's what I plan to do, with the caveat that "These Are the Voyages" has also been deleted from the timeline. Somehow I doubt there will be many objections.

 

[USS Renegade]

The adventures of nuTrek Kirk don't overwrite the adventures of TOS Kirk. They happily coexist as well - in different timelines/quantum realities.

However, I think that this point has already been made dozens of times... or at least attempted to be made dozens of times. Before people don't start to understand and accept this point, we are walking around in circles.

Quantum Schuantum, sugar coating doesn't stop it from being a reboot. It is a reboot, we must all just learn to deal with it.

 

[Admiral Buzzkill]

And apparently TPTB didn't consider that any Vulcan should have been able to do a frickin' MIND MELD with Pike. Spock was right there, in fact!

Except that Spock was, of course, not motivated to help them communicate successfully with Pike. So I'll give the writers that one.

 

[USS Renegade]

That's also the reason why I stopped posting.
What people call 'debating' around here is just like the proverbial one-armed man trying to clap his hands.

The sound of one hand clapping is a slap to the face...

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

And apparently TPTB didn't consider that any Vulcan should have been able to do a frickin' MIND MELD with Pike. Spock was right there, in fact!

Except that Spock was, of course, not motivated to help them communicate successfully with Pike. So I'll give the writers that one.

Spock was motivated to take Pike to Talos IV because he believed it was the only way to save him. We've already seen that it's possible to do much the same thing via a mind-meld - heck, without that, Spock would have permanently died in ST II/III.

 

[Samurai8472]

I'll know we're in an alternate timeline if Chekov's brother shows up, someone mentions that the entire tribble species was exterminated in 2207, Kirk confesses to his great love for old Clark Gable movies, or Spock successfully executes a Vulcan death grip.

I can't wait to see the reaction when NU!Khan becomes a woman and then have a real plastic chest.

 

[shapeshifter]