All Good Things is the best TNG Episode

[TayJG]

I recently re-watched TNG. I've been making a list of the best TNG episodes. I have a draft version of it that's nearly done. Maybe I'll post it later, but I'll say that AGT was the best episode.

Reasons:

* Three different time settings, with three different dynamics
* Q is awesome
* It's all about Picard and is skillfully done
* The plot is solid
* It's got 2 epic moments (Picard's speech on the old enterprise and the 3 enterprises inside the anti-time anomaly
* It was all about bringing the whole series full circle, you really can't ask for more than that
* Good cinematography (i.e. when all the Enterprises go and the camera comes down on Picard in an all white surrounding

 

[JesterFace]

* It was all about bringing the whole series full circle, you really can't ask for more than that

'All Good Things...' is really an awesome episode and it wraps up the entire series very well.
The whole trial of humanity from 'Encounter at Farpoint' to 'All Good Things...' gives the entire series more meaning that just adventure of the week show.

 

[TayJG]

'All Good Things...' is really an awesome episode and it wraps up the entire series very well.
The whole trial of humanity from 'Encounter at Farpoint' to 'All Good Things...' gives the entire series more meaning that just adventure of the week show.

I was thinking about which episode I was going to say is the best. Before I re-watched AGT, I was going to say Best of Both Worlds, but then I saw AGT again (after 25 years) and I appreciated it more and it just blew me off my ass, for all the reasons I mentioned.

The best part of the episode is when Picard orders the original crew into the anomaly, Tasha is like hold up, we did everything you said but we want to know why, then Picard gives the dope speech and they go in. That is the single best part of the whole episode.

It's just like (but not as good) as the Picard speech before he takes on the Klingon ships in "Yesterday's Enterprise."

It's always the best when people do courageous shit like that. It's like rally the troops before the hopeless battle, then attack.

And there's so many good things, like you said about Q, I like the final talk he has with Picard. The rest of the Continuum thought you couldn't do it, but I knew you had it in you.....see you.....out there. Also the bit about the trial never ends. It's not just that the episode good, it's that it's a final series episodes that literally ties together all parts of seven seasons together and also continues it forward, while ending. Kind of like the ending of The Wire, but without being cyclical.

 

[TayJG]

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[DonIago]

It's a good (and fun) episode, but I wish it wasn't so Picard-centric, and it seems to ultimately be a bit of a reset button episode in the sense that we don't really see any clear character growth or references back to the events of the episode going forward (i.e. if you remove the episode from the series, would any future events for the characters be any different?).

I do like the puzzle of the anti-time anomaly even if the execution of it as shown doesn't quite work.

 

[TayJG]

It's a good (and fun) episode, but I wish it wasn't so Picard-centric, and it

My challenge to you would be to keep the same plot: 3 time lines with Picard moving between them, and have it not be Picard-centric?

QUOTE="DonIago, post: 14353623, member: 314"]
seems to ultimately be a bit of a reset button episode in the sense that we don't really see any clear character growth or references back to the events of the episode going forward (i.e. if you remove the episode from the series, would any future events for the characters be any different?).[/QUOTE]

Do you mean references from the series "Picard?" I haven't started watching that.

QUOTE="DonIago, post: 14353623, member: 314"]
I do like the puzzle of the anti-time anomaly even if the execution of it as shown doesn't quite work.[/QUOTE]

What do you mean?

I would add a few other gems I didn't mention before:

Geordi says he is married to "Leah", made me think of Leah Brahms.

Data has a million cats in the future instead of one. Picard has to pick up a Siamese or something just to sit down.
In the past, Data is back to his old awkward style of not understanding idioms and arguing with O'Brien.

It's got Tasha and she seems just as naiive and earnest as Season 1.

The kiss in the ready room between Crusher and Picard is moving closer to the romance they always had.

When Crusher doubts Picard's sanity, she still respects his greatness, but clearly it's a faded glory. When they're all inside the anomaly it's like a restoration of Picard's greatness in her eyes, it's like a he's done it once again moment.

Tomalak, Picard's old nemesis makes another appearance.

 

[TayJG]

Oh it's rough on me without an edit option, I've been posting and editing/correcting for literally 20+ years in internet chats.

 

[Mojochi]

It's a good episode, fun, and for where they were in production, it's fairly good for a finale, but there's a lot of things in it that keep it from being at the top of my list for sure, the trumped up Riker/Worf grudge is pretty contrived. Geordi's throwaway lines about his wife Leah & family were kind of cringy. Plus, the premise of Picard needing a Q nudge to understand reverse temporal dynamics seemed a little weak, given how much time related incidents we've seen him encounter. The only reason it even managed to be confusing at all was precisely because Q himself was meddlesome about how he played it out.

 

[DonIago]

My challenge to you would be to keep the same plot: 3 time lines with Picard moving between them, and have it not be Picard-centric?

I never claimed I could write a better finale episode, particularly with that conceit. But there's no real reason this episode needs to be the final episode of the series either, and in retrospect it foreshadows the way the films became the Picard-and-Data show at the expense of the rest of the cast.

Do you mean references from the series "Picard?" I haven't started watching that.

Or the TNG films, or anything else created after this episode. The entire episode, including the parts that really did happen, could have been in Picard's head, for all the subsequent impact they seem to have had.

What do you mean?

I mean what I said, given the premise of the anti-time anomaly, that it starts at a given point in time and then 'travels' backward in time, there are errors in how it's executed within the episode, particularly in the future segments. TPTB could have gotten themselves out of that pickle by saying the anomaly 'traveled' both forward and backward in time, but that's not what they claimed.

Geordi says he is married to "Leah", made me think of Leah Brahms.

Geordi's interactions with Leah in the past aren't necessarily something all Trek fans recall fondly.

 

[KennyMadison]

I recently re-watched TNG. I've been making a list of the best TNG episodes. I have a draft version of it that's nearly done. Maybe I'll post it later, but I'll say that AGT was the best episode.

Of course, all of your points are excellent and perfect. And I agree with them.

I'm also going to be very basic. I love AGT because the Enterprise-D has 3 nacelles, goes ultra fast, and has a cloaking device.

 

[TayJG]

the trumped up Riker/Worf grudge is pretty contrived.

Any more so than Riker and Worf attacking a Federation shuttlecraft to save all realities in order so that they wouldn't have to return to fight the Borg in "Parallels?" The Riker/Worf grudge is not given a lot of details - exactly how Deanna died. It wasn't a negative, and overall everyone in the future is far more surly and bitter, including Picard. It also works out well since they Riker and Worf have a rapprochement in then end.

Geordi's throwaway lines about his wife Leah & family were kind of cringy.

No way. Most people probably wouldn't even catch the subtle lines, and there were in no way cringy. It's just so random to call that cringe, it's like uh yeah Picard - Crusher, cringe. Riker - Troi, cringe.

Plus, the premise of Picard needing a Q nudge to understand reverse temporal dynamics seemed a little weak, given how much time related incidents we've seen him encounter. The only reason it even managed to be confusing at all was precisely because Q himself was meddlesome about how he played it out.

Any more weak than Encounter at Far Point? That was the great mystery that a station is actually a living being and that the living being that comes to attack the station is actually trying to rescue its mate. That was the great intellectual challenge? I would say that AGT reverse temporal dynamics is a much more believable plot, especially since PIcard absolutely needed Q's help to go back bllions of years in time to see how devastating the anomaly was - can't do that without Q.

Any kind of confusion in the plot is minor, the main points clearly stood out - Picard unintentionally created the anomaly, and it grows the further back in time you go.

 

[TayJG]

I never claimed I could write a better finale episode, particularly with that conceit. But there's no real reason this episode needs to be the final episode of the series either, and in retrospect it foreshadows the way the films became the Picard-and-Data show at the expense of the rest of the cast.

It doesn't matter if you "claimed" that or not, you say the episode would have been better if it were less Picard-centric, so I ask you how you would make it less. I think that's quite hard to do, much like its hard to redo any masterpiece. If you have a great novel, how do you make radical changes to it without reducing the quality? There's no way you could have AGT not be the final episode of the series. It was 2 hours, it was epic, it tied together all 7 seasons (which is what season 7 as a whole was doing) and it left the Enterprise world still carrying on their mission - that's the perfect ending to a series, much like the acclaimed show "The Wire" that I mentioned. Life continues on after the series ends.

Or the TNG films, or anything else created after this episode. The entire episode, including the parts that really did happen, could have been in Picard's head, for all the subsequent impact they seem to have had.

It kind of seems like your argument is that change just for the sake of change is necessary. So you're saying that there were no changes made to the character's relationships or to the plot in general, and that is a weakness. I disagree that any of that stuff is important. It's not about any of those things but the adventure that's had.

I mean what I said, given the premise of the anti-time anomaly, that it starts at a given point in time and then 'travels' backward in time, there are errors in how it's executed within the episode, particularly in the future segments. TPTB could have gotten themselves out of that pickle by saying the anomaly 'traveled' both forward and backward in time, but that's not what they claimed.

What errors in how its executed?

Geordi's interactions with Leah in the past aren't necessarily something all Trek fans recall fondly.

Who cares? Are you a slave to the opinions of some fans? I wipe my butt with them. I'm not going to let some random fans dictate what I think. The Geordi - Leah thing was exactly what it needed to be. She was nice to him on the holodeck and an ice queen in real life. That is what makes the story interesting. It's far cooler that he ended up with his crush, given Geordi's entire character arc, which is always the poor guy who can't get a girlfriend - he ends up with the girl he liked the most and has the most in common with, and it's done so subtly, I didn't even notice it the fist time I watched it.

 

[TayJG]

Of course, all of your points are excellent and perfect. And I agree with them.

I'm also going to be very basic. I love AGT because the Enterprise-D has 3 nacelles, goes ultra fast, and has a cloaking device.

Thanks. 3 nacelle Enterprise D was a bad mofo in its day, when the episode first came out.

 

[DonIago]

It doesn't matter if you "claimed" that or not, you say the episode would have been better if it were less Picard-centric, so I ask you how you would make it less. I think that's quite hard to do, much like its hard to redo any masterpiece. If you have a great novel, how do you make radical changes to it without reducing the quality? There's no way you could have AGT not be the final episode of the series. It was 2 hours, it was epic, it tied together all 7 seasons (which is what season 7 as a whole was doing) and it left the Enterprise world still carrying on their mission - that's the perfect ending to a series, much like the acclaimed show "The Wire" that I mentioned. Life continues on after the series ends.



It kind of seems like your argument is that change just for the sake of change is necessary. So you're saying that there were no changes made to the character's relationships or to the plot in general, and that is a weakness. I disagree that any of that stuff is important. It's not about any of those things but the adventure that's had.



What errors in how its executed?



Who cares? Are you a slave to the opinions of some fans? I wipe my butt with them. I'm not going to let some random fans dictate what I think. The Geordi - Leah thing was exactly what it needed to be. She was nice to him on the holodeck and an ice queen in real life. That is what makes the story interesting. It's far cooler that he ended up with his crush, given Geordi's entire character arc, which is always the poor guy who can't get a girlfriend - he ends up with the girl he liked the most and has the most in common with, and it's done so subtly, I didn't even notice it the fist time I watched it.

Given your last paragraph in particular, it's clear you're significantly biased in favor of AGT and not interested in having a frank discussion of the episode's imperfections. As such, I'll step back now and let you get back to your adoration.

 

[TayJG]

Given your last paragraph in particular, it's clear you're significantly biased in favor of AGT and not interested in having a frank discussion of the episode's imperfections. As such, I'll step back now and let you get back to your adoration.

Very convenient for you, given that you twice dodged my questions on your comments about the episode could have been better and supposed errors in the execution of the anti-time anomaly. You somehow view it as a flaw that one is not a slave to the whims of a random group of fans. Given your dodging and this mob mentality of yours it seems that you're too dishonest to have a frank discussion of any thing at all.

 

[Mutai Sho-Rin]

Let's cool the argument or the thread will be closed.

 

[Legate Duhmar]

It's a good (and fun) episode, but I wish it wasn't so Picard-centric, and it seems to ultimately be a bit of a reset button episode in the sense that we don't really see any clear character growth or references back to the events of the episode going forward (i.e. if you remove the episode from the series, would any future events for the characters be any different?).

I do like the puzzle of the anti-time anomaly even if the execution of it as shown doesn't quite work.

Agreed AGT is a bit too Picard centric from a plot standpoint, even though all the characters get a future treatment they are all passive participants to the main conflict so it does sort of fail to satisfy a lot of arcs in the end. That being said, it was a great finale for the series as it did tie back to the beginning of the show and the time travel plot allowed for characters like Tasha to get a return of sorts which was a really nice touch. It's hard to end any series in a truly satisfying way and the writers here did a good job of balancing closing out the show with creating a meaningful and interesting enough episode for the audience.

However good the finale was, AGT is not my personal favorite episode of TNG as that title goes to Best of Both Worlds. It's just a better overall story, with a lot more character threads to follow and a much more suspenseful plot with huge in universe consequences, even being the basis of Siskos original struggle in early DS9. Best of Both Worlds really was the start of peak TNG and peak Trek in general.

 

[Nombrecomun]

I loved the episode. I get the "too Picard centric" but when you're dealing with Q you're dealing with that duo of Picard and Q. Especially how it book ends Encounter at Farpoint. I still think everyone got their moment.

It really was a lovely send off and bringing in Tasha was cherry on top. That last scene in which Picard joins them for poker.....man.....teary eyed.

My own 'head canon' says this was the last visual presentation of the TNG crew. I thought the movies were relatively awful. This last ep felt a lot more scifi and grandiose than the movies. For a long time I thought it was a wasted opportunity not to make a movie with Q but then I just couldn't think of how they could top AGT. It was the best send off.

 

[Mojochi]

Any more so than Riker and Worf attacking a Federation shuttlecraft to save all realities in order so that they wouldn't have to return to fight the Borg in "Parallels?"

Contrived in that some of AGT's subplots really do play as a superficially hatched "something" to do for the other characters' futures that isn't really rooted in anything, doesn't contribute much & is conveniently never really explained, then yes, more so than anything in Parallels imho

Any more weak than Encounter at Far Point?

Farpoint was our introduction to the characters. As an intro to the abnormality of things to come, I thought Farpoint was a pretty good story, especially as they were really fleshing out the show at that early launching point.

However, AGT is after the culmination of 7 seasons of knowing them, & knowing that Picard in particular has negotiated multiple time anomaly events. I'm not saying it entirely fails as a premise. It's handled well enough actually, & provides a useful vehicle for a well-played final act for Picard/Q, but...

I would say that AGT reverse temporal dynamics is a much more believable plot, especially since PIcard absolutely needed Q's help to go back bllions of years in time to see how devastating the anomaly was - can't do that without Q.

He might have needed the help to physically go back to see it, but intellectually, he is a man with a fair amount of temporal event experience at this point, enough that grasping the mere concept of reverse temporal effects on the universe being a thing that might have disastrous consequences should not be so beyond him, that he'd need his hand held or a tactile experience to enlighten him to it imho

That said, it still works to some degree story-wise, because Q was hardly ever concerned with whether anyone legit needed help when he meddled, & the deliberate disorientation he subjects Picard to can explain away his difficulties in the challenge. In the end though, I have a hard time (as usual) thinking Q deserves thanks for his involvement, when it's always just a "You're not entirely ready for an evolutionary leap beyond your current state yet"

Well duh. You didn't need to prank anyone to get that message across

 

[JesterFace]

My own 'head canon' says this was the last visual presentation of the TNG crew. I thought the movies were relatively awful.

I've said this before and I'll probably say it again at some point but for me STNG ended with 'All Good Things...'.
The movies.... what are those.