Alien 5: An Open Message About Newt, Hicks, and Bishop

[Galileo7]

i don't care if 3 and 4 are ignored...just give me a good film.

Agree. I just want A5 to be a good sequel to Alien/Aliens.

 

[Doctorwhovian]

It's been a while since I've seen the Assembly cut, but isn't Charles Dance's character killed off by the Alien before Ripley knows about the Queen (Part of the hint being that the alien that killed the Doctor won't hurt her)? The scene where she's using the x-ray is with Ralph Marsh's character I believe in all versions of the film.


The Dark Horse comics adaptation of Alien3's a bit strange-it shows the Queen chestburster infected Newt, but since she ended up drowning, the Queen-sort of halfway through the embryo and chestbuster stage-crawled out of her mouth and went quickly into Ripley or something like that.

 

[Allyn Gibson]

Nobody likes an unhappy ending. And at the time Alien3 seemed very much like THE END of the entire saga, and a double-middle-finger-to-the-audience ending at that - the kind of ending that leaves you wondering why the hell you got into the series in the first place. And the gaps in narrative logic in the beginning of the film were obvious from the very start. People were leaving those theaters feeling personally insulted.

I left the theater on Alien 3's opening day feeling very satisfied. I thought the movie was good; I went back to see it about two weeks later. It wasn't for a few years that I learned that Alien 3 was not generally well received.

The ending didn't bother me at all, nor did I mind that the film "seemed like THE END of the entire saga"; to me, Alien was an accidental franchise, with the studio turning something that was never meant to be a series into a series. I didn't need more Alien after Alien 3. Heck, I didn't need more after Aliens, either; I've sort of seen every film since the first as an unexpected surprise. If you go in thinking every film is the series' ending, you don't feel disappointed when the film gives you a definitive ending.

Yes, it's a downbeat ending, but it's a triumphant downbeat. Ripley is finally free. Free of the Company, free of the alien creature that shaped and destroyed her life. Her life was forfeit anyway, and she went out on her own terms. The only film I can think of the ends anything like that is Thelma & Louise. Hollywood generally doesn't make films where your protagonists win by killing themselves.

About the only way they could have pissed the audience off worse was the Queenburster actually escaping Ripley's suicide plunge at the last split-second and getting safely into Company hands.

As much as that would have suberted the ending, I can imagine how that would work with the film series -- at the moment Ripley wins, her victory is snatched from her and she never gets a second chance. I don't think Hollywood is that brave.

 

[Autistoid]

Bad things happen to good people. That's just a fact of life.

This wasn't just bad things, this was a convoluted ridiculous set of circumstances that only make sense if an evil God had it out for Ripley.

Seriously our heroes have to be dumb enough not to check for more aliens before going into hyper sleep, the egg has to decide to open with no one near it (something they've never done before) instead of just getting some poor bastard on Earth when they get there so they can wreck the ship and kill off three characters just because, and somehow the face hugger can navigate from the egg's hiding place to the hyper sleep chambers, and then survive implanting Ripley long enough to implant a dog/cow instead of dying like they usually do just so they can have a alien run around (a bit after Ripley should logically be dead) and still give Ripley a reason to commit suicide.

It just comes off a putting everyone into a corner just to surve the plot.

Ah star trek fan complaining about ass pulling.





Seriously, I'll never get the alien 3 hatred.

Was it a good movie no, was it in any worst than your average star trek flop not a chance.

I'd argue Resurection was far worst, it had no point, or depth, just firefly in the 90s.

Alien 3 failed trying to be something different, that's far preferrable than being average at something that is over done.

Alien 3 as far as I`m concerned was awsome until they killed off the doctor, after making the prison a volunitary sentence.

If they kept the doctor slightly longer and make the prisoners mildly intelligent I think it would of been awsome.

Anything to do with the darkness etc is just nonsense.

 

[Allyn Gibson]

Alien 3 as far as I`m concerned was awesome until they killed off the doctor, after making the prison a voluntary sentence.

If they kept the doctor slightly longer and make the prisoners mildly intelligent I think it would of been awesome.

I used to think that Clemons died too early in the film, but Alien 3 is a slow burn and Clemons dies at about the hour mark (give or take five minutes).

If I remember correctly, the (final) writer of Alien 3 agrees with you that the Doctor dies too early. Because I like Charles Dance a lot as an actor, it would've been nice to see more of him, but I see why the film is structured as it is -- the characters who would theoretically be most inclined to be Ripley's allies die first, forcing Ripley to work with humanity's worst to survive -- and I don't really see how Clemons living fifteen or twenty more minutes would have benefited the film.

 

[Captaindemotion]

Seriously, I'll never get the alien 3 hatred.

Nobody likes an unhappy ending. And at the time Alien3 seemed very much like THE END of the entire saga, and a double-middle-finger-to-the-audience ending at that - the kind of ending that leaves you wondering why the hell you got into the series in the first place. And the gaps in narrative logic in the beginning of the film were obvious from the very start. People were leaving those theaters feeling personally insulted.

About the only way they could have pissed the audience off worse was the Queenburster actually escaping Ripley's suicide plunge at the last split-second and getting safely into Company hands.

The unhappy ending is one thing but it was always the unhappy beginning that pissed me off. The offscreen deaths of Hicks and Newt just totally undermined the ending of Aliens. Every time you rewatched Aliens, you'd know that Ripley's valiant battle at the end to save them was totally pointless. They were gonna die anyway.

It'd be like Die Hard 2 starting off with John McClean returning from Holly's funeral.

 

[Reverend]

Alien 3 as far as I`m concerned was awesome until they killed off the doctor, after making the prison a voluntary sentence.

If they kept the doctor slightly longer and make the prisoners mildly intelligent I think it would of been awesome.

I used to think that Clemons died too early in the film, but Alien 3 is a slow burn and Clemons dies at about the hour mark (give or take five minutes).

If I remember correctly, the (final) writer of Alien 3 agrees with you that the Doctor dies too early. Because I like Charles Dance a lot as an actor, it would've been nice to see more of him, but I see why the film is structured as it is -- the characters who would theoretically be most inclined to be Ripley's allies die first, forcing Ripley to work with humanity's worst to survive -- and I don't really see how Clemons living fifteen or twenty more minutes would have benefited the film.

I can see both sides of the argument honestly. While yes, you're right in that taking away most of Ripley's potential allies forces her to deal with people who neither like nor trust her (and incidentally, tried to rape her) it considerably ups the tension.

On the other hand, the way it was done did fell very cheep and his presence later on could have addressed an issue with the final act in that most of the prisoners getting slaughtered are fairly faceless and with the exception of Dillion, their deaths don't have much of an impact. Having the doctor in the middle of that would certainly have helped in that regard.

Mind you, the counter-argument comes to mind that having the doctor die so close to the end might have cheapened her choice to commit suicide. Arguably changing it from a defiant and noble sacrifice to an act of pure grief and despair.
So maybe a better point for the Doctor to die would have been during the burning sequence?

 

[beamMe]

Seriously, I'll never get the alien 3 hatred.

Nobody likes an unhappy ending. And at the time Alien3 seemed very much like THE END of the entire saga, and a double-middle-finger-to-the-audience ending at that - the kind of ending that leaves you wondering why the hell you got into the series in the first place. And the gaps in narrative logic in the beginning of the film were obvious from the very start. People were leaving those theaters feeling personally insulted.

About the only way they could have pissed the audience off worse was the Queenburster actually escaping Ripley's suicide plunge at the last split-second and getting safely into Company hands.

The unhappy ending is one thing but it was always the unhappy beginning that pissed me off. The offscreen deaths of Hicks and Newt just totally undermined the ending of Aliens. Every time you rewatched Aliens, you'd know that Ripley's valiant battle at the end to save them was totally pointless. They were gonna die anyway.

It'd be like Die Hard 2 starting off with John McClean returning from Holly's funeral.

Exactly.
It's that downer of a beginning that colours the perception of the rest of the film.

 

[Doctorwhovian]

Well, Holly did leave him between Die Hard 2 and Die Hard With a Vengeance, despite the fact that they reconciled in 1 and seemed still happy in 2. (And in the more recent sequels it's clear they've been divorced for a while).

 

[Captaindemotion]

Well, Holly did leave him between Die Hard 2 and Die Hard With a Vengeance, despite the fact that they reconciled in 1 and seemed still happy in 2. (And in the more recent sequels it's clear they've been divorced for a while).

I figured someone would bring this up. To which I say, the last 2 movies are shite anyway, so they don't count!

Still, separation and divorce are better than being dead and their estrangement does serve a purpose in WAV, namely to show a very down-on-his-luck John, different from what we'd been used to. That movie does at least end with him on the phone to her, with some signs of thawing the ice (remember that he admitted to Zeus that he had simply refused to talk to her for the last 18 months or so).

 

[Hartzilla2007]

While yes, you're right in that taking away most of Ripley's potential allies forces her to deal with people who neither like nor trust her (and incidentally, tried to rape her) it considerably ups the tension.

Of course there is also the possibility that it having only a bunch of unsympathetic characters around to help Ripley could make one more inclined to route for the Alien.

 

[mos6507]

In my opinion, the only real way to end the Alien saga at this point is for Ripley to confront the xenomorphs on their homeworld.

Agreed. That's worth doing.

 

[Timby]

Seriously, I'll never get the alien 3 hatred.

Nobody likes an unhappy ending. And at the time Alien3 seemed very much like THE END of the entire saga, and a double-middle-finger-to-the-audience ending at that - the kind of ending that leaves you wondering why the hell you got into the series in the first place. And the gaps in narrative logic in the beginning of the film were obvious from the very start. People were leaving those theaters feeling personally insulted.

About the only way they could have pissed the audience off worse was the Queenburster actually escaping Ripley's suicide plunge at the last split-second and getting safely into Company hands.

The unhappy ending is one thing but it was always the unhappy beginning that pissed me off. The offscreen deaths of Hicks and Newt just totally undermined the ending of Aliens. Every time you rewatched Aliens, you'd know that Ripley's valiant battle at the end to save them was totally pointless. They were gonna die anyway.

It'd be like Die Hard 2 starting off with John McClean returning from Holly's funeral.

That's like saying the sad ending of Star Trek II is undermined because you just know Spock is going to come back to life in the next one.

 

[Captaindemotion]

^ There are plenty of people who do say that.

The comparison would be more apt if they'd simply reintroduced Spock at the start of TSFS without showing us how he's been resurrected IMHO.

 

[Autistoid]

Alien 3 as far as I`m concerned was awesome until they killed off the doctor, after making the prison a voluntary sentence.

If they kept the doctor slightly longer and make the prisoners mildly intelligent I think it would of been awesome.

I used to think that Clemons died too early in the film, but Alien 3 is a slow burn and Clemons dies at about the hour mark (give or take five minutes).

If I remember correctly, the (final) writer of Alien 3 agrees with you that the Doctor dies too early. Because I like Charles Dance a lot as an actor, it would've been nice to see more of him, but I see why the film is structured as it is -- the characters who would theoretically be most inclined to be Ripley's allies die first, forcing Ripley to work with humanity's worst to survive -- and I don't really see how Clemons living fifteen or twenty more minutes would have benefited the film.

I would of prefered that he was aware that it was inside her. And lined up a plot to have her killed.

Having the last scene between the two with her accepting his plan, as some wierd act of assisted suicide.

 

[TremblingBluStar]

Again bullshit asspull.

Are people really still having heated arguments over this 23 year-old movie? We all know by now what explanations can be given, so either you accept them and like the film or you don't.

I'm personally on the fence. I find the movie enjoyable, but don't think it fit with the rest of the films. They needed the story to up the ante, and introduce something new and terrifying and not just another alien picking off helpless humans.

Anybody ever read the Dark Horse/Mark Verheiden trilogy of comics?

I have them. I haven't read them in years, though. It sucks that DH changed the characters names (to Billie and Wilks). What the hell??? Were the idea of clones or simply saying they were different characters with the names Newt and Hicks too far fetched for the company that gave us Robocop vs. Terminator?

And then A:R wiped out the whole Dark Horse Aliens catalog in one blow by stating there had been NO Xeno sightings since Ripley's death on Fiorina 161.

I smell as massive government coverup to hide the existence of the Xenos. Walmart is just that evil. Probably worried the Xenos would upset soccer moms, or something.

 

[Allyn Gibson]

Anybody ever read the Dark Horse/Mark Verheiden trilogy of comics?

I have them. I haven't read them in years, though. It sucks that DH changed the characters names (to Billie and Wilks). What the hell??? Were the idea of clones or simply saying they were different characters with the names Newt and Hicks too far fetched for the company that gave us Robocop vs. Terminator?

In the original publication of the Verheiden trilogy (1988-1990), the characters were Newt, Hicks, and Bishop. When Alien 3 revealed the fates of Newt and Hicks, the stories were reprinted with altered character names. The novelizations of the Verheiden trilogy created new backstories for Billie and Wilks. Dark Horse needed to keep the Verheiden stories in their continuity, since the xenomorph-infested Earth was a factor in later stories.

The interesting Dark Horse project, from this standpoint, is their adaptation of Aliens, Newt's Story. It's a retelling of the film from Newt's perspective, and it ends with the hint that Alien 3 is Newt's hypersleep nightmare.

 

[beamMe]

Seriously, I'll never get the alien 3 hatred.

Nobody likes an unhappy ending. And at the time Alien3 seemed very much like THE END of the entire saga, and a double-middle-finger-to-the-audience ending at that - the kind of ending that leaves you wondering why the hell you got into the series in the first place. And the gaps in narrative logic in the beginning of the film were obvious from the very start. People were leaving those theaters feeling personally insulted.

About the only way they could have pissed the audience off worse was the Queenburster actually escaping Ripley's suicide plunge at the last split-second and getting safely into Company hands.

The unhappy ending is one thing but it was always the unhappy beginning that pissed me off. The offscreen deaths of Hicks and Newt just totally undermined the ending of Aliens. Every time you rewatched Aliens, you'd know that Ripley's valiant battle at the end to save them was totally pointless. They were gonna die anyway.

It'd be like Die Hard 2 starting off with John McClean returning from Holly's funeral.

That's like saying the sad ending of Star Trek II is undermined because you just know Spock is going to come back to life in the next one.

The point is, we did know he was going to come back.
The film did leave us on that glimmer of hope.

 

[Marsden]

I just want him to make it good, and add something to the mythos, not just be a cash-in. Other than that, I don't give a shit one way or the other about canonicity of 3 and 4.

I agree with this all the way.

If it's a good movie, so what about those other two movies that may or not be good.

I don't think they were too good and wouldn't miss them.

But I didn't know about that Assembly cut and want to see it.

My problem with Alien 3 is not the ending, but everything else up to it. The characters I liked and wanted to see were killed off screen, the new ones didn't appeal to me and it started to have a "Friday the 13th" kind of feel to see who got killed next and in what way was the only thing of mild interest because at no time did I give a shit about anyone surviving but Ripley. Also, the Bishop android being a jerk while the other one was not just kind of crapped on everyone from the last movie. Crap is not always bad, and if Hicks and Newt were killed by the new Alien, yes I could see that, it would be tragic and terrible and, if well written, a very powerful moment, but they took the stupid ass way out and killed them before the movie started.

 

[JD]

I've never seen Alien 3 or Alien: Resurrection, so I'd be perfectly content if Alien 5 acted like they never happened.