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Agents of Shield - Season 4

In the real world, she's bound by her protocols and is essentially exploiting a programming loophole to keep them in the framework, where she is decidedly unbound.

Is she, though? I noticed that "Ophelia" herself hasn't directly killed any of the real live people in the Framework; it was Fitz who killed Agnes, and it was May and Fitz who called in the airstrike that killed Mace. The fact that Ophelia/Aida has arranged things to put two real humans in place as her key operatives, the ones who actually do the killing, suggests that maybe her own restrictions on killing are still in place in the Framework. I think she's free to do whatever she wants to the virtual people within the Framework, since they technically wouldn't count as human under her programming blocks (although I consider them to be sentient beings), but when it comes to the SHIELD agents, Radcliffe, and Agnes, she's still been restricted and has needed to get them to kill each other.

As for why she chose that role for herself I think it should be obvious. In the real world she's a slave, so why wouldn't she want that role reversed in her own domain?

Naturally. More pragmatically speaking, she needed to put herself in a leadership position within the Framework so that she could direct all its resources toward her own goals.


It also has the upshot of keeping her close to Fitz, whom I believe she does have true affection for and whom she needed to help her figure a way out of her predicament.

I'm not convinced of the affection. It's not out of the question, but since so much of Aida's and Ophelia's apparent attitudes have been deceptions, I don't trust any of her apparent sympathies to be real. She could be motivated solely by Fitz's usefulness to her goals. As she said this week, Fitz is a romantic, and that's how she's gotten him to do what she wanted, by casting herself as his lover so that he'd move heaven and earth (almost literally) for her.


As I said last week, with the Darkhold in play, it may not be quite as simple as that. The framework itself could be real in some sense. A little pocket universe like the mirror dimension or something. So those people could all be "real".

I agree, in the sense that "reality" doesn't require physical substance. A digitally simulated mind that was identical in structure and complexity to a human brain would have a human consciousness, since that consciousness is a function of the organization and activity of the brain rather than its physical composition. We were told that Aida used the Darkhold and the processing power of computers all over the world to turn the Framework into an exact simulation of the entire planet Earth, equal in complexity and detail to the real thing, so that makes it functionally "real," and its inhabitants are just as sentient as flesh-and-blood humans.
 
I agree, in the sense that "reality" doesn't require physical substance. A digitally simulated mind that was identical in structure and complexity to a human brain would have a human consciousness, since that consciousness is a function of the organization and activity of the brain rather than its physical composition. We were told that Aida used the Darkhold and the processing power of computers all over the world to turn the Framework into an exact simulation of the entire planet Earth, equal in complexity and detail to the real thing, so that makes it functionally "real," and its inhabitants are just as sentient as flesh-and-blood humans.

I agree it would be extremely difficult to see the specific individuals we've been shown so far as in any way not real. I do still wonder if it's at all possible that there might be different levels of ai. For instance - could it be that the framework outside the immediate vicinity of the human subjects exists only as a vast stream of data inputs rather than individual ais making decisions?

I also wonder about Aida's plan to free herself: if she creates a new body and uploads her existing conciousness, it theoretically shouldn't free her from anything. Her conciousness was built on the programming she wants to get rid of - that's a part of her OS, her mind, not her body. Unless they use the darkhold to handwave everything, of course.
 
I agree it would be extremely difficult to see the specific individuals we've been shown so far as in any way not real. I do still wonder if it's at all possible that there might be different levels of ai. For instance - could it be that the framework outside the immediate vicinity of the human subjects exists only as a vast stream of data inputs rather than individual ais making decisions?

From what Radcliffe and Aida said before the last hiatus, the Framework is a completely accurate simulation of the entire Earth. It's not just a VR environment for the benefit of the few people trapped in it.


I also wonder about Aida's plan to free herself: if she creates a new body and uploads her existing conciousness, it theoretically shouldn't free her from anything. Her conciousness was built on the programming she wants to get rid of - that's a part of her OS, her mind, not her body. Unless they use the darkhold to handwave everything, of course.

Well, the human mind is a physical phenomenon. It's not pure data, it's an outgrowth of the physical brain structure, the biochemistry of the body, etc. It might be that her LMD body has some similar, physically hardwired inhibitions on her behavior. So if she transfers her memories and personality, the intangible parts of herself, from an LMD body into a human body, that would free her from the hardwired limitations.
 
From what Radcliffe and Aida said before the last hiatus, the Framework is a completely accurate simulation of the entire Earth. It's not just a VR environment for the benefit of the few people trapped in it.

I know they've said as much, but it's debateable to what extent their statements can be taken seriously. They certainly haven't scanned every brain on the planet, so they can't have produced a completely accurate ai copy of every real person. There is the darkhold hanging over everything, but that didn't stop them from needing to scan people individually before.

There's also the question of what 'accurate simulation' necessarily means. It could be there are individual ais standing in for every person. It could be there are ais standing in for some people and algorithms being run by a massive program to 'simulate' other people and areas that aren't currently required to be fully focused on. It could be there are no individual ais at all, and every person and action is being simulated by one massive program which is somehow able to perfectly mimic millions of different personalities simultaneously.

I'm guessing you're probably right in terms of the writers' intent, but I do find it an interesting thing to ponder.

Well, the human mind is a physical phenomenon. It's not pure data, it's an outgrowth of the physical brain structure, the biochemistry of the body, etc. It might be that her LMD body has some similar, physically hardwired inhibitions on her behavior. So if she transfers her memories and personality, the intangible parts of herself, from an LMD body into a human body, that would free her from the hardwired limitations.

I suppose, though I find it hard to imagine how that kind of programming could be hard-wired.
 
I know they've said as much, but it's debateable to what extent their statements can be taken seriously. They certainly haven't scanned every brain on the planet, so they can't have produced a completely accurate ai copy of every real person.

That's beside the point. I'm not talking about whether they're exact copies of individuals, but about whether they're sentient beings in their own right. That's purely a matter of whether their brains are equal in complexity and structure to human brains in general, regardless of whether they match specific individuals' brains. After all, two different humans' brains are not exactly identical to each other, but that has no bearing on their respective sentience, because both their brains are complex enough to be sentient. So these may be new people who just approximate the original ones, but they're still people.


There's also the question of what 'accurate simulation' necessarily means. It could be there are individual ais standing in for every person. It could be there are ais standing in for some people and algorithms being run by a massive program to 'simulate' other people and areas that aren't currently required to be fully focused on.

But that's not simulation in the sense I understand it. Scientifically speaking, a simulation is a model intended to accurately replicate a real-world process, to predict how that process would actually unfold given a certain set of starting conditions. For example, in making computer-animated movies, they hand-animate things like character movements and expressions, but they use mathematical simulations to generate things too complex to animate, like flowing water or the behavior of hair and fabric in response to gravity, motion, wind, etc. They enter a set of starting conditions and let the simulation generate a result on its own, and if they don't like it, then they enter new starting conditions and physical parameters and run it again.

So I don't take "accurate simulation" to mean an exact copy; I take it to mean a simulation equal in complexity and physical behavior to the real world, so that it behaves in the same way reality would behave given the entered set of initial conditions. What's accurate is its prediction of the outcomes of a given set of conditions, its modeling of the way the real world would behave.

It could be there are no individual ais at all, and every person and action is being simulated by one massive program which is somehow able to perfectly mimic millions of different personalities simultaneously.

That's a spurious distinction. All that matters in defining a mind is its structure and processes. It doesn't matter what it's made of or whether it's a part of something bigger. If the single massive program is accurately simulating the activity and structure of millions of distinct sentient minds, then those are distinct sentient minds for all intents and purposes.

There are scientists who argue that our entire universe is statistically more likely to be a simulation than a physically real universe. The idea is that a real universe could contain countless computers advanced enough to simulate entire universes, so the number of simulated universes would vastly outweigh the number of real ones. The Framework just needs to simulate the Earth, which is comparatively easy.


I suppose, though I find it hard to imagine how that kind of programming could be hard-wired.

That was just one possibility. The larger idea is that the workings of the brain are not one homogeneous mass, but a bunch of different processes working together. And that means that you can transfer some without the others. For instance, there are several different kinds of memory -- there's episodic memory (recall of specific events and personal experience), semantic memory (recall of factual knowledge and the meaning of things), and procedural memory (recall of learned behaviors and skills). Which is how someone (at least in fiction) can have amnesia about their life experience and personal memories but still remember how to speak English or drive a car. Similarly, there's a difference between our conscious decision-making processes and our more primal drives and reflexes, and a separation between different aspects of decision-making. For instance, I read a while back about a form of brain damage that could impair one's ability to make moral decisions -- when presented with a problem that involved deciding whether to let someone die (in the abstract), subjects would lose their normal reluctance to make that choice. Sort of like that Voyager episode where the bad guy turned off the Doctor's ethical subroutines and turned him into a psychopath.

So it isn't necessarily a given that transferring Aida's mind would require transferring the whole thing without modification. Some bits could be left behind.
 
I'm still an ep behind (RIP, Director Mace), but I trust we all caught the Sen. Elizabeth Warren shout-out in "No Regrets"? Alex McLevy, The AV Club:

Despite the alternate reality of the Marvel Cinematic Universe, it tends to keep pace with the times in our world in lots of other ways. And the moment that Fitz, when describing Daisy’s refusal to bend to Hydra’s will, utters the phrase “Nevertheless, she persisted,” it became clear the show was leaving behind its former tactic of satisfying itself with coy allusions and nods to the contemporary political reality in the U.S. The Framework is giving this series an opportunity to express its displeasure with the current administration, for better or worse, and “No Regrets” unapologetically dives into that oppositional stance. The title ironically evokes the advice given to Fitz and May this episode (more on that shortly), but it could also be applied to the decision to actively use this dystopian digital world as a way to comment on Trump’s America.

Winking references to Elizabeth Warren aside, the main source of this critique comes from Jemma’s conversation with Mack. Flipping through Hope’s history book, the two express disbelief at the ways history has been rewritten by Hydra, and while the chat could be viewed more innocently when devoid of context, the stories and comparisons surrounding it make the political critique obvious. “The blatant lies, the complete disregard for historic and scientific fact...” Simmons expresses with surprise and disgust - sound familiar? It’s a very normal comic-book tactic to use larger-than-life adventures to comment on political issues (it’s the reason for the X-Men’s entire existence in the first place), especially to push agendas that shouldn’t be as controversial as they are (tolerance, diversity, basic scientific fact). So perhaps the surprise shouldn’t be that S.H.I.E.L.D. is taking a stance against a political leader and coalition that denies and distorts fundamental truths with impunity, but that it took this long for it to become so overt.
.
 
Don't forget Trip!
I thought about Trip, and I suppose he'd be no different from Ward or Sparkplug. I guess the difference to me is that Ward and Sparkplug are essentially new people, built from the ground up (even though Ward superficially resembles a person from the real world), whereas Trip is the recreation of a real man who died. Bringing him out of the framework wouldn't really be bringing Trip back to life. I wonder how the real Trip's colleagues would feel about that.

In the real world, she's bound by her protocols and is essentially exploiting a programming loophole to keep them in the framework, where she is decidedly unbound. As for why she chose that role for herself I think it should be obvious. In the real world she's a slave, so why wouldn't she want that role reversed in her own domain?
It also has the upshot of keeping her close to Fitz, whom I believe she does have true affection for and whom she needed to help her figure a way out of her predicament.
It just all seems like an unnecessarily elaborate-- and therefore prone to catastrophic failure-- plot just so that Pinocchio can become a real girl. Wanting to be flesh and blood isn't really an evil goal, but she made it one for no good reason.

As I said last week, with the Darkhold in play, it may not be quite as simple as that. The framework itself could be real in some sense. A little pocket universe like the mirror dimension or something. So those people could all be "real".
That's a good point. The involvement of the Darkhold is the wild card in all this. But even at the level of a purely technological virtual world, if all those people are AIs (as opposed to just NPCs), they should be saved and protected. It would be cool if the Framework were to become a permanent feature of the SHIELD universe.
 
I thought about Trip, and I suppose he'd be no different from Ward or Sparkplug. I guess the difference to me is that Ward and Sparkplug are essentially new people, built from the ground up (even though Ward superficially resembles a person from the real world), whereas Trip is the recreation of a real man who died. Bringing him out of the framework wouldn't really be bringing Trip back to life. I wonder how the real Trip's colleagues would feel about that.

While I agree Mini-Mac is a "new" person either created whole cloth or extrapolated using some complex algorithm, Ward is a bit of both. He's still the same person, just that he was mentored by Hand instead of Garrett (presumably sans brain washing & canine murder.) He still had the messed up childhood, was put away for arson and recruited into SHIELD.
That's the thing with Ward though; he was never fundamentally "evil" but just a broken, troubled person. This version of him is more a "what could have been" rather than an "in name only" type of incarnation.
Indeed, that's usually the whole point of the "mirror universe" trope and it's the reason why the Justice Lords are way more interesting than the Crime Syndicate. ;)

It just all seems like an unnecessarily elaborate-- and therefore prone to catastrophic failure-- plot just so that Pinocchio can become a real girl. Wanting to be flesh and blood isn't really an evil goal, but she made it one for no good reason.

She's mostly just working with what's at hand. Remember, she didn't invent any of these tools, Fitz and Radcliffe did (with a little help from the tome of ultimate evil.) Also, I don't feel the end goal is to create a flesh and blood body so much as to free herself of her perceived enslavement. Since those restrictions appear to be locked into her at a hardware level, transforming her digital self (or her true self, from an AI's perspective) into physical reality is the only way out.

That's a good point. The involvement of the Darkhold is the wild card in all this. But even at the level of a purely technological virtual world, if all those people are AIs (as opposed to just NPCs), they should be saved and protected. It would be cool if the Framework were to become a permanent feature of the SHIELD universe.

I doubt they're AI's since I doubt even the combined processing power of the entire planet could support over 7 billion sapient programs all interacting with each other at once. If they are then the only non-genocide option is to keep the framework intact, or use the darkhold to split them off into their own independent universe or something.
 
I doubt they're AI's since I doubt even the combined processing power of the entire planet could support over 7 billion sapient programs all interacting with each other at once.

Well, I'm just going by what Radcliffe and Aida said -- that the Framework was a complete and accurate simulation of the entire planet Earth. The fact is, the entire human biomass is a tiny fraction of the mass of the entire planet, and the entire human-populated surface area of the Earth is only about one percent of its entire area, land and water included. If internal processes like tectonics and volcanic activity are also being simulated, then we're even a more inconsequential fraction of the entire simulation.

Now, I'm not sure how a computer network with far fewer particles than the entire Earth could simulate all the particle interactions of the entire Earth. But I've read that it's theoretically possible for a sufficiently advanced computer to simulate an entire universe. I guess that's because a simulation is a mathematical construct, so it's basically abstract. Maybe it calculates a lot of processes statistically, in the aggregate, rather than tracking every individual particle. I dunno, I was never very good with computer science.

More generally, when it comes to the question of whether an ambiguously sentient consciousness is actually sentient, it seems safer to me to err on the side of caution and assume sentience. Being considerate to a non-sentient entity does no harm, but treating a sentient entity as exploitable and disposable does enormous harm. So I'd rather be too generous in assuming sentience than too conservative.
 
If they bring person-making bio-printers into this, it's going to be pretty much the same as one of Eureka's plot arcs.
 
The story could end with a printer jam.

While I agree Mini-Mac is a "new" person either created whole cloth or extrapolated using some complex algorithm, Ward is a bit of both. He's still the same person, just that he was mentored by Hand instead of Garrett (presumably sans brain washing & canine murder.) He still had the messed up childhood, was put away for arson and recruited into SHIELD.
That's the thing with Ward though; he was never fundamentally "evil" but just a broken, troubled person. This version of him is more a "what could have been" rather than an "in name only" type of incarnation.
Indeed, that's usually the whole point of the "mirror universe" trope and it's the reason why the Justice Lords are way more interesting than the Crime Syndicate. ;)
Right. Creating a meat version of Framework Ward would be a form of redemption-- it would be like doing him a favor. Presumably, at some level, Ward wanted to be the best of all possible Wards.

She's mostly just working with what's at hand. Remember, she didn't invent any of these tools, Fitz and Radcliffe did (with a little help from the tome of ultimate evil.) Also, I don't feel the end goal is to create a flesh and blood body so much as to free herself of her perceived enslavement. Since those restrictions appear to be locked into her at a hardware level, transforming her digital self (or her true self, from an AI's perspective) into physical reality is the only way out.
That's all true. But the other thing is, becoming human would make her very vulnerable, and lacking in resources outside the Framework. You'd think a better plan would be to create a new LMD body without the hardware restrictions.

I doubt they're AI's since I doubt even the combined processing power of the entire planet could support over 7 billion sapient programs all interacting with each other at once. If they are then the only non-genocide option is to keep the framework intact, or use the darkhold to split them off into their own independent universe or something.
That's what I'm thinking will probably happen. I'd prefer that they make a commitment to keeping the Framework alive, but with the Darkhold involved an independent universe is a real possibility.
 
I just caught a couple episodes. I haven't been able to keep up this season and this thread.

I apologize if it has been touched on already but t I'm wondering if both Fitz and May are more... brainwashed because their minds were fried, and was more...involved with AIDA...

Yes, Coulson had his mind fried, but he didn't have close interaction with AIDA like the two.
 
I apologize if it has been touched on already but t I'm wondering if both Fitz and May are more... brainwashed because their minds were fried, and was more...involved with AIDA...

Fitz is the way he is because his mean, bullying father remained a part of his life, indoctrinating him in toxic masculinity and quashing the more sensitive side we know and love.

May is the way she is because she didn't kill Katya Belakov in Bahrain, as she did in reality, and as a result, Katya went on to have the same kind of power upheaval in Cambridge and killed a bunch of people. So May feels that her mercy toward an Inhuman led to a catastrophe, and that hardened her against Inhumans and led her to support the Hydra takeover and its war on Inhumans.

In both cases, the idea is that removing their greatest regrets, as Radcliffe asked Aida to do, ended up backfiring and making them worse people rather than happier people. Although Aida may have manipulated events in order to make sure the outcomes were negative; the Cambridge Incident is just too convenient to her purposes, for instance.

For the others, Mack's regret was that his daughter Hope died in infancy, so he got her back in the Framework. Mace's regret was not being a real superhero, so he got to be one. Coulson's regret, apparently, was that he ever joined SHIELD in the first place, although that seems odd to me. I would've thought his greatest regret was losing Audrey, but I guess Amy Acker was too busy.
 
That doesn't really negate my query. Mack didn't work for Hydra in the framework.
 
That doesn't really negate my query. Mack didn't work for Hydra in the framework.

The point is, nobody's been brainwashed or mind-fried. The Framework has simulated their entire lives, changing one key event in their past so that their lives to proceed differently from that moment onward. The Framework is an exact simulation of the real world, but with certain starting conditions changed, so it accurately models how history would've proceeded differently if those changes had occurred. So it's essentially as if Aida had gone back in time and changed the past to create an alternate timeline. Nobody's been mind-controlled; we're just seeing who they would have become if their lives had gone differently.

In the cases of Fitz and May, those changes make them useful to Aida/Ophelia's plans. Even the change to Mace was useful in that it gave the enemy a face, gave Hydra an excuse to crack down harder. As for Coulson and Mack, the changes in their lives just kept them out of the way, which was probably enough.
 
Why did Aida resurrect Hydra, though? Does she blame Shield for poor treatment and is just getting back at them? Maybe she just needed the control that Hydra would provide and Shield wouldn't.
 
Why did Aida resurrect Hydra, though? Does she blame Shield for poor treatment and is just getting back at them? Maybe she just needed the control that Hydra would provide and Shield wouldn't.

Yes, I think so. Aida wanted to use the Framework to achieve her goal of becoming a real live girl and freeing herself from Radcliffe's control. In order to direct all its resources toward her ends, she had to be in a position of absolute power, so a dictatorship was just what she needed.

Besides, the conditions were already in place. Hydra was planning a takeover anyway, and it almost succeeded until Cap, Widow, and Fury stopped it. By changing a few key events, like May's actions in Bahrain, she could bring about the Hydra takeover years sooner, before Cap was even reawakened.

Of course, she claimed that this version of history was just what naturally happened after she followed Radcliffe's orders to remove the captives' regrets. But given how well the outcome suits her ends, I think it's more likely that she had her finger on the scales here and there.
 
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