Agents of Shield - Season 4

[Christopher]

While it's true he's artificially "enhanced" like Cap, unlike Cap, Mace's abilities are non-permanent.

Yeah, but so are a lot of superpowers. Hourman was called that because he got his powers from pills whose effects only lasted an hour. Green Lantern rings run out of juice after 24 hours of use (or originally, after 24 hours no matter what). Bane can temporarily enhance his strength with the Venom super-steroid. Japan's Ultraman can only maintain his giant form for 3 minutes. The title hero of Ben 10 could originally change into a given alien for a maximum of 10 minutes at a time. Three different comedy superheroes from '60s TV -- Underdog, Captain Nice, and Mr. Terrific -- all got their powers from special pills or serums whose effects wore off after a while. All these characters are recognized as superpowered heroes or villains. It's unprecedented to disqualify something from being considered a superpower just because it's temporary.

So yeah, they're "real" but not intrinsic to who he is. It's an important distinction because it's like me saying I have the "power" to be immune to pain just because I shot myself up with morphine (though if I did, I probably wouldn't be coherent enough to make that claim, but you get the idea.) It's also especially important coming after claiming to be an Inhuman because it's 100% voluntary, while the Inhumans mostly have their condition inflicted upon them. He can walk away at any time and be "normal". They don't have that luxury and however well meaning, that makes him a fraud.

It is obviously valid to say he is not an Inhuman. It is obviously valid to say he is a fraud because of that. But it is bizarre and without precedent to claim that a temporary, drug-induced superhuman ability cannot even be called a "power." Maybe I care more about the exact wording than the rest of you because I'm a writer, but to me, it matters.

Side note: was that crazy exploding bullet meant to be the same type that wounded Luke Cage? Seems like it was. If so it pretty much confirms what most suspected in that it's leftover Hydra tech.

Oh, I didn't think of that. I hope that was intentional.

I don't recall them saying that, Phil said he wasn't a inhuman and he would be correct.

That was later. When he first realized that Mace took a serum, he said "You don't even have powers."

That serum is dam dangerous for sure, an army of amped up soldiers will never end well. Remember in First Avenger when the Doc was looking for more than a tough guy to be Captain America.

I think Mace has shown that he can at least somewhat be trusted with the power. He's not the most honest guy around, but he's not a bully. He took advantage when people shoved fame and glory onto him, but he did resist doing so at first, and he has an awareness that it's more than he deserves. Someone with humility and self-doubt can be trusted more with power than, say, an arrogant SOB like Talbot.

 

[wayoung]

Hey, was that bullet supposed to be the same as from Luke Cage? Be a cool little reference if it was. Sure seemed the same from what we saw.

 

[LJones41]

I think Mace has shown that he can at least somewhat be trusted with the power. He's not the most honest guy around, but he's not a bully. He took advantage when people shoved fame and glory onto him, but he did resist doing so at first, and he has an awareness that it's more than he deserves. Someone with humility and self-doubt can be trusted more with power than, say, an arrogant SOB like Talbot.

I agree.


In some way, the President and Talbot's plans regarding Mace reminded me of how the government in the MCU is constantly trying to find an enhanced being - in whatever form - they can control. And I've realized this has been the case since SHIELD tried to dictate Tony's actions in both "Iron Man" and "Iron Man 2".

 

[Xerxes82]

Clumsy phrasing comes from clumsy concepts.

Read: I don't like it, therefore it's a bad concept.

My problem with the phrasing is that it implied that Mace's ability to be a hero is nonexistent or fraudulent just because he gets his strength temporarily from an artificial source. There are plenty of heroes who work that way. Not to mention heroes whose abilities are both permanent and induced by external technology, like Cap, the Hulk, Deathlok, etc. The only difference between Cap and Mace, ability-wise, is that Cap's "performance enhancer" never wears off.

Context also matters. When Coulson is being dismissive of Mace and his lack of powers, he's just learned that he's been manipulated, lied to, and now placed in a life or death situation with someone he can't fully trust and who isn't the asset he believed him to be going in. Coulson may just be reacting like most of us, by being a little bit petty in the face of this new obstacle. In that moment, you can damn well bet that Coulson believes Mace's "ability to be a hero is nonexistent or fraudulent," as you have put it. It may not be a fair assessment in the grand scheme, but I'm not going to fault Coulson for making it just then. Note how, later in this very same episode, Coulson has a change of heart. Recognizing that Mace is more than just superhuman strength, and is willing to genuinely put his life on the line, with or without his strength. So, in essence, the episode gives Coulson an arc to play with the very phrasing you're complaining about. Going from dismissive to accepting of Mace, and all is abilities whether innate or otherwise

 

[Photoman15]

They really gotta give Mace his serum in a pill form . He and the people around him who guard the serum seem clumsy
He should have a prescription bottle of it with him at all times.

 

[Christopher]

Read: I don't like it, therefore it's a bad concept.

I'm not talking about anything so petty as that; I'm just discussing a matter of factual consistency and usage. As I said, there has never before been a comic-book or superhero story in my experience that has defined the word "power" in such a narrow way that it excluded non-innate or impermanent abilities. Thus, the usage struck me as both strange and inappropriate.

Coulson may just be reacting like most of us, by being a little bit petty in the face of this new obstacle. In that moment, you can damn well bet that Coulson believes Mace's "ability to be a hero is nonexistent or fraudulent," as you have put it. It may not be a fair assessment in the grand scheme, but I'm not going to fault Coulson for making it just then. Note how, later in this very same episode, Coulson has a change of heart. Recognizing that Mace is more than just superhuman strength, and is willing to genuinely put his life on the line, with or without his strength. So, in essence, the episode gives Coulson an arc to play with the very phrasing you're complaining about. Going from dismissive to accepting of Mace, and all is abilities whether innate or otherwise

Okay, that's a valid point. But it still seems like an overreaction, given that Coulson's personal hero Captain America got his powers from a serum too. Heck, Coulson knows a number of people whose powers are artificial -- in fact, he is one, what with all the nifty stuff his bionic hand can do.

 

[Jax]

I think Mace has shown that he can at least somewhat be trusted with the power. He's not the most honest guy around, but he's not a bully. He took advantage when people shoved fame and glory onto him, but he did resist doing so at first, and he has an awareness that it's more than he deserves. Someone with humility and self-doubt can be trusted more with power than, say, an arrogant SOB like Talbot.

But am sure the idea of the program is to have an army of these temporary powered super guys...That will not end well especially is Talbot is commanding it.

 

[Christopher]

But am sure the idea of the program is to have an army of these temporary powered super guys...That will not end well especially is Talbot is commanding it.

Well, Mace did say it was uniquely calibrated for his genetics. Maybe he's the only one it worked on.

 

[The Old Mixer]

It's unprecedented to disqualify something from being considered a superpower just because it's temporary.

The Legion of Super-Heroes had strict guidelines that members had to have a power that didn't come from an artificial source. Had Patriot Boy shown up for a membership drive with his serum, I don't know if he'd even have gotten the conciliatory flight belt.

When he first realized that Mace took a serum, he said "You don't even have powers."

At the moment that Phil said that, it was 100% true.

 

[Christopher]

The Legion of Super-Heroes had strict guidelines that members had to have a power that didn't come from an artificial source.

But they were still called powers. It's the actual terminology I'm talking about. Again, it's my writer's point of view. I care about words.

 

[The Old Mixer]

I posted hastily..."Patriot Lad" has more of a ring to it.

But they were still called powers. It's the actual terminology I'm talking about. Again, it's my writer's point of view. I care about words.

Hence the second part of my post, which addressed the literal truth of Coulson's words.

 

[Nerys Myk]

Boy Lad would be the ultimate LSH name.

 

[Christopher]

Boy Lad would be the ultimate LSH name.

Or Boy Lass...

 

[The Old Mixer]

Queen King!

 

[RJDiogenes]

The Person.

Ironically, (in comics) Patriot was Jeffery Mace, the second boy to pick up the job after Steve seemed to have died, but still before the end of WWII, who is the fake Inhuman S.H.I.E.L.D. Director on the TV show that we are watching.

I knew it was something like that.

 

[Timelord79 (he/him)]

Yeah... looked like Judas Bullet go me.
I wish Daisy called it that instead of just saying exploding bullet.
Their existence is relatively common knowledge.

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[Reverend]

Yeah... looked like Judas Bullet go me.
I wish Daisy called it that instead of just saying exploding bullet.

That would require explaining to the part of the audience that don't have a Netflix subscription what that even means, which is a waste of time since it doesn't even matter to the plot. It's only there as a fun tie-in for the fans that do know, so naming it would be redundant.

Their existence is relatively common knowledge.

Except Cottenmouth hadn't even heard of it until Shades showed him the video. So it's hardly "common knowledge". Clearly Shades has closer connections with black market weapons dealers.

The only way Daisy would likely find out about it is if the Watchdogs had used it previously, which apparently they didn't. This group seemed much more well equipped than the others.

 

[Timelord79 (he/him)]

You forget at the end of the season the police was using them, too.

 

[Reverend]

You forget at the end of the season the police was using them, too.

Indeed I did. Still, that seemed to be a one-off deal with the NYPD IIRC and after the scandal surrounding that whole situation, one would think the details were swept under the rug.

Regardless, the point stands that it would have been a little cumbersome for someone to name drop it here where it was irrelevant to the plot. People who've seen Luke Cage know what it is, those that haven't, don't need to.

 

[Turtletrekker]

I just hope that that isn't what Jeph Loeb was refering to when he said to "stay tuned" regarding an AoS/Netflix connection.