Agents of Shield - Season 4

[Xerxes82]

That's fine. In rare cases, changing stupid source material is good. Batman: The Animated Series changed Mr. freeze from the source material into an awesome villain.

The best solution to this would just be to use a different Ghost Rider. Alejandra works perfectly as Ghost Rider if they really want diversity, Blaze or Ketch if the want a more classic Rider. But, if they must use that version, giving him a motorcycle is the only way to make him a Ghost "Rider". Otherwise he's just a bad comic book idea put on screen instead of the good comic book versions.

Except it's not a "stupid" idea, and Robbie isn't a "bad comic book idea." His book was miles better than the awful run they put together with Alejandra. It's different,absolutely, but that doesn't make it either stupid or bad. But definitely different, which you apparently hate. Which makes this second part of your post really, really ironic...

Any one who hates people or wants to lock them up because they're different from them is evil. This SHIELD director (just like Gonzales, Mockingbird, mack, etc) is just an X-Men villain, except he hates Inhumans instead of mutants. No one who has similar beliefs is anything but a bad guy. A character doesn't come back from being a bigot, its one of the most obvious types of irredeemable bad guy. The only way they could be more innately evil is if they were a nazi or something like that.

It should be noted that while Mack was initially on the side that was fearful of Inhumans, he has since grown as a person. To the point that he has partnered with an ENTIRE TEAM of them, working closely especially with Daisy. He feared what he didn't understand. But as he's come to grasp the situation, his position has evolved. Hell, he even risked his life to try and get her back from Hive, very nearly dying in the process. If characters are never allowed to grow or change, or learn their lesson and change their minds in Mack's case, then what's the point of even putting them in the story? Mack's story is one of growth, of realizing he was wrong in his initial reactions and moving past them.

 

[kirk55555]

Except it's not a "stupid" idea, and Robbie isn't a "bad comic book idea." His book was miles better than the awful run they put together with Alejandra. It's different,absolutely, but that doesn't make it either stupid or bad. But definitely different, which you apparently hate. Which makes this second part of your post really, really ironic...

Ghost Driver has tanked at least one series, and possibly two (I can't remember if the one I tried to read was his only one or not). Alejandra wasn't great, but Ghost Driver hasn't done much better then her, and he's definitely not any more popular. As for him being bad and a stupid idea, that's subjective. Being a failure in sales doesn't necessarily make a character bad, tons of great characters don't get a fair chance nowadays with readers, and sometimes bad writers/editors can tank a good character/idea.

I think Ghost Driver is terrible anyway, but regardless he's less popular, less recognizable and much less successful then the Blaze and Ketch Ghost Riders, and that's indisputable. People can insult the Nic Cage movies, but those made Ghost Rider recognizable. To less hardcore fans, Ghost Rider is the guy with a flaming skull and a motorcycle. So, from both a hardcore fan standpoint and a general recongnition standpoint, Ghost Driver is a really stupid version to use.

It should be noted that while Mack was initially on the side that was fearful of Inhumans, he has since grown as a person. To the point that he has partnered with an ENTIRE TEAM of them, working closely especially with Daisy. He feared what he didn't understand. But as he's come to grasp the situation, his position has evolved. Hell, he even risked his life to try and get her back from Hive, very nearly dying in the process. If characters are never allowed to grow or change, or learn their lesson and change their minds in Mack's case, then what's the point of even putting them in the story? Mack's story is one of growth, of realizing he was wrong in his initial reactions and moving past them.

Wow, you really aren't a forgiven person are you.
I really think a person can be a bigot without being totally evil, they could easily just not understand the other or think about the other group. They are definite not irredeemable in my eyes, as long as they long come to see the error of their ways and change their behavior. The only way I could see someone like that as irredeemable would be if they were full on genocidal and responsible for killing people in that group. If they said mean things or maybe locked the person up temporarily, it's definitely bad but not irredeemable for me.

Characters can grow. But, bigots don't (except into bigger bigots, maybe). Its like nazi's, they never become good guys. Its about as pure an evil as you can show on TV. Mack was a traitor to Coulson who only decided to work with inhumans so he could keep an eye on them (which I'm pretty sure he outright stated), and so he could control them to a certain extent. His opinion on inhumans never changed from his first appearance to last season's finale. He's just Whitehall minus the HYDRA membership and with delusions of being a "good guy".

I just think that treating someone differently and/or denying them basic rights because they're different from you is very wrong, and makes a character irredeemable. I've accepted that the show is probably stuck with him until the actor gets a better offer or the show is cancelled, but I consider him one of the antagonists and watch the show despite him, because of the good characters that are on the show.

 

[Nerys Myk]

And Batman is a bad example since Batman does, in fact, ride a motorcycle as well.

and a boat, a jet. a hang glider....

 

[Timelord79 (he/him)]

Ok, so if a character does good things, is friends with the good guys/heroes, saves peoples lives, defends them where he can he ist still a an evil basterd because his desire to do those things is only rooted in a delusion to be a good guy himself so he feels compelled to do them instead of evil things, but secretely he would love to kill/lock up the good guys and he bust doesn't know it?
So how do you tell a good guy from a bad guy instead, besides not liking the supposed bad guy?
Kirk55555, I think your view on certain TV characters is quite bigoted and you show no sign of redemption. What does that make you?

 

[Richard Baker]

I have mixed feelings about adding Ghost Rider to the AoS. Things are complicated enough but thus far they have been based on some sort of science, be it advanced human tech or alien tech. Ghost Rider adds the Heaven/Hell Magic into the mix and using the Penance Stare to off bad guys just does not fit that world well in my own head. I have not read the comics but I assume over the years Ghost Rider has teamed up with other Marvell characters over the years.
We will see soon how it all works out I guess...

 

[Timelord79 (he/him)]

Doesn't surprise me that they add magic now to AoS with Doctor Strange about to make his debut.
It's all connected, remember?

 

[Alidar Jarok]

It's no coincidence there were more Kree influences after Guardians (although it technically came first).

 

[JD]

Characters can grow. But, bigots don't (except into bigger bigots, maybe). Its like nazi's, they never become good guys. Its about as pure an evil as you can show on TV. Mack was a traitor to Coulson who only decided to work with inhumans so he could keep an eye on them (which I'm pretty sure he outright stated), and so he could control them to a certain extent. His opinion on inhumans never changed from his first appearance to last season's finale. He's just Whitehall minus the HYDRA membership and with delusions of being a "good guy".

Even if they clearly change their views and opinions, and we know for a fact that they no longer feel the way they used to?
I compliment you for not liking bigots, but it's ridiculous to say they can't change their minds. There are plenty of ways a person can start out with bigoted opinions, but correct themselves and change. To say that bigot can change is just ridiculous.

Doesn't surprise me that they add magic now to AoS with Doctor Strange about to make his debut.
It's all connected, remember?

I can't remember if they are adding Ghost Rider just because Doctor Strange is allowing magic into MCU or specifically to tie into it, but I know it's been mentioned specifically as having a part in the addition of GR.

 

[RJDiogenes]

Two questions about Ghost Rider, since I haven't read Marvel Comics in a few years: 1) Are all these new Ghost Riders Zarathos, or do they have different origins? 2) Does Reyes create his car from Hellfire, like Blaze (sometimes) did or does he use the Hellfire to soup up a physical car?

 

[Xerxes82]

Two questions about Ghost Rider, since I haven't read Marvel Comics in a few years: 1) Are all these new Ghost Riders Zarathos, or do they have different origins? 2) Does Reyes create his car from Hellfire, like Blaze (sometimes) did or does he use the Hellfire to soup up a physical car?

1) Robbie Reyes is possessed not by a Spirit of Vengeance, but rather by a human soul, that of his uncle, Eli. Eli was a satanic serial murderer, responsible for the deaths of at least 34 people. Apparently whatever rituals he engaged in allowed him to somehow bind his spirit to his car after his death. (He was murdered by a Russian mob boss, for whom he had worked as a hitman, when said mob boss discovered his satanic beliefs.) Years later, Robbie, who was initially unaware of his relationship to Eli, was murdered while driving the same car. Eli used his apparently supernatural powers to revive Robbie, binding him to the car as well, and creating this new Ghost Rider. The bond between Robbie and Eli's souls became apparently permanent when Robbie killed the mob boss who had Eli murdered, avenging his evil uncle. (This was not something Robbie wanted to do, he had strictly avoided killing. But Eli manipulated Robbie by trying to bond with his disabled younger brother, Gabe. To save Gave, Robbie willingly killed the mob boss and took Eli's burden for himself. On the final page of his series, Robbie agreed to feed Eli's insatiable bloodlust through killing, but only if Eli found him the worst, most awful examples of humanity. Robbie will kill those who so evil they have it coming, but is fighting Eli's influence to murder indiscriminately.)

2) It's a physical car. No mention specifically of Hellfire, as Eli's specific supernatural abilities are unclear. But the Charger does get all the usual flaming upgrades (specifically flame tires, and a huge flame plume from the turbocharger). Robbie's powers, other than superhuman strength, durability and fiery chains, all stem from the car itself. He can control it remotely with his mind, teleport to it through apparently any shadow, use the boot as a portal to teleport others or objects, and can phase through the car at will, allowing him to board it in motion, or to hit somebody he's fighting hand to hand at no risk to himself. In Robbie's first series, it's been left somewhat unclear it the car's abilities stem from Eli, or from some aspect of the car itself. This incarnation of the Ghost Rider needs all three elements to function (Robbie, Eli, the car) and it's been implied that damage to the car could effect Eli's powers, at the least.

 

[kirk55555]

Wait, so Ghost Driver doesn't even have the penance stare? It never came up in what I read, neither did his origin (he definitely had an evil spirit with him from what I read, but they didn't go into it). I can't even hate this character at this point, he's too pathetic to hate. His book sold about as well as selling sand in the Sahara, and he sounds like a character the writer came up with as a joke, but a clueless editor approved so they had to put him in a comic.

I guess it makes sense that AoS gets to use him, the MCU people would never use such a terrible character. Hopefully this means the real Ghost Rider will show up somewhere else in a few years, and AoS is using Ghost Driver because the MCU people didn't want to waste the normal character on AoS.

 

[Xerxes82]

Wait, so Ghost Driver doesn't even have the penance stare?

Neither did the original (now called Phantom Rider), OR the Johnny Blaze version. Penance Stare was exclusively a Danny Ketch ability (created in what, the mid-90's?) until even more recent writers gave it to Blaze as well. So trying to argue that not having it somehow diminishes Ghost Rider is hilarious. Thanks for that.

 

[Mr. Adventure]

The penance stare is a pretty good gimmick though. I think it goes well with the character adding something menacing that supports his appearance.

There does seem to be something about a flaming skull guy that just goes really well with a motorcycle but I'm willing to reserve final judgment until it shows. I could see where this version might fit better with the backdrop of Agents of Shield.

 

[kirk55555]

Neither did the original (now called Phantom Rider), OR the Johnny Blaze version. Penance Stare was exclusively a Danny Ketch ability (created in what, the mid-90's?) until even more recent writers gave it to Blaze as well. So trying to argue that not having it somehow diminishes Ghost Rider is hilarious. Thanks for that.

I';ll admit I didn't know that, but to be fair 2006 was around the time I started to be able to read "current" comics regularly, which means Johnny Blaze has had the penance stare about as long as I've been seeing him in comics. Besides that, Alejandra had the penance stare and Vengeance (the weird purple GR) had the Penance stare. Superman couldn't fly when he first debuted, but everyone associates him with flying now. So, I'd say its the same thing with the Penance Stare. It might not have been with the character originally, but its been with most of the others, the original eventually got the ability and between that and the Nic Cage movies I'd say its a signature ability of the character. Heck, the first time I really noticed Ghost Rider was while watching the old 90s Fantastic Four cartoon on DVD years ago, and he literally only shows up to put the penance stare on Galactus. Its definitely a trademark of the character at this point, and an ability I think would be expected to see with any Ghost Rider at this point.

 

[Captain Craig]

I liked Alejandra as Ghost Rider. Shame so many bailed on that so early. However, I also place a solid bit of blame on Marvel Marketing of the time to NOT focus the Circle of Four crossover event squarely into the Ghost Rider book. They instead tied it into Venom of all things when the villain was Blackheart, clearly a Ghost Rider focused adversary.

Alejandra's book was turning into a mentor relationship, father figure if you will, but it never fully materialized sadly. I rooted for her to get a slot in Fearsome Defenders but that didn't happen. At least she isn't dead so maybe we'll yet revisit her.

 

[Xerxes82]

The penance stare is a pretty good gimmick though. I think it goes well with the character adding something menacing that supports his appearance.

Oh, it's absolutely a good gimmick. I also think that it's clear that AoS is merging elements from elsewhere in the Rider mythos with Robbie (the one image I've seen of the flaming head is clearly closer to the classic Blaze/Ketch than Robbie's more unique take). I won't be at all surprised if the AoS Robbie Reyes Ghost Rider gets the Penance Stare, or if he's an actual Spirit of Vengeance, even perhaps channeling Zarathos.

He hasn't been shown to have it in the comics, and I don't believe for a second that he NEEDS it, as another poster implied. But we haven't seen what the show is going to do with Robbie, or the Rider. Considering the production people are saying they chose him specifically because he's new, and has virtually no history for comic fans to get pissed at them for ignoring or changing, I'd say all bets are off on MCU Robbie Reyes. He needs Gabe, that's the heart of Robbie's character, but Eli? His powers, his motivations, his story are all up for grabs, and I won't be the least bit surprised if AoS changes, merges and generally alters the character as much, if not more, than they did Lash.

Frankly, as long as the result does a service to the show, and the characters on it, I'm ok with them making changes. I'd be ok with them making bigger changes to bigger characters to serve the narrative. Hell, I'm one of the seeming minority who really liked Zemo in Civil War. And I think the Trevor Slattery twist was well executed in IM:3 (Note, I'm talking about the execution itself, not necessarily the idea behind it. Different topic for a different day). I don't need it to be straight off the page to enjoy what they do with these characters. Yes, I love Robbie, and would love to see him take off on a show like this and boost his popularity. But as long as AoS gives me a cool Ghost Rider, I'm not hung up on the minutiae.

I liked Alejandra as Ghost Rider. Shame so many bailed on that so early. However, I also place a solid bit of blame on Marvel Marketing of the time to NOT focus the Circle of Four crossover event squarely into the Ghost Rider book. They instead tied it into Venom of all things when the villain was Blackheart, clearly a Ghost Rider focused adversary.

Alejandra's book was turning into a mentor relationship, father figure if you will, but it never fully materialized sadly. I rooted for her to get a slot in Fearsome Defenders but that didn't happen. At least she isn't dead so maybe we'll yet revisit her.

I never read Alejandra's book, but I was reading Venom, and Circle of Four was awful! Completely derailed that book and it's plot, nearly drove Remender's run into the ground (though he did manage to pull up and avoid the crash with his last arc). I wish they'd kept it in Ghost Rider's playground too, if only so I could have avoided it at the time.

Personally, I'm hoping Robbie's new series lasts long enough to touch on the other Riders. He met Blaze in his first series, but it would be fun to see him meet the whole gang. What a motorcade that would be!

 

[LJones41]

Characters can grow. But, bigots don't (except into bigger bigots, maybe). Its like nazi's, they never become good guys.

There have been people in real life who started out as bigots and ended up changing.

 

[RJDiogenes]

1) Robbie Reyes is possessed not by a Spirit of Vengeance, but rather by a human soul, that of his uncle, Eli.

Thanks for the background, Xerxes. Obviously this is a very different Ghost Rider, unrelated to Blaze. I'm not very fond of heroes who kill, so I wonder if they intended the character to eventually move beyond that.

There have been people in real life who started out as bigots and ended up changing.

Of course there are and it's imperative that this happen. Changing hearts and minds is the only way to rid the world of bigotry, which is something the current generation seems to have lost sight of.

 

[JD]

Oh, it's absolutely a good gimmick. I also think that it's clear that AoS is merging elements from elsewhere in the Rider mythos with Robbie (the one image I've seen of the flaming head is clearly closer to the classic Blaze/Ketch than Robbie's more unique take). I won't be at all surprised if the AoS Robbie Reyes Ghost Rider gets the Penance Stare, or if he's an actual Spirit of Vengeance, even perhaps channeling Zarathos.

He hasn't been shown to have it in the comics, and I don't believe for a second that he NEEDS it, as another poster implied. But we haven't seen what the show is going to do with Robbie, or the Rider. Considering the production people are saying they chose him specifically because he's new, and has virtually no history for comic fans to get pissed at them for ignoring or changing, I'd say all bets are off on MCU Robbie Reyes. He needs Gabe, that's the heart of Robbie's character, but Eli? His powers, his motivations, his story are all up for grabs, and I won't be the least bit surprised if AoS changes, merges and generally alters the character as much, if not more, than they did Lash.

Frankly, as long as the result does a service to the show, and the characters on it, I'm ok with them making changes. I'd be ok with them making bigger changes to bigger characters to serve the narrative. Hell, I'm one of the seeming minority who really liked Zemo in Civil War. And I think the Trevor Slattery twist was well executed in IM:3 (Note, I'm talking about the execution itself, not necessarily the idea behind it. Different topic for a different day). I don't need it to be straight off the page to enjoy what they do with these characters. Yes, I love Robbie, and would love to see him take off on a show like this and boost his popularity. But as long as AoS gives me a cool Ghost Rider, I'm not hung up on the minutiae.

I'd be pretty shocked if they didn't bring in a few elements from some of the other Ghost Rider characters. Adaptations like this almost always seem to end up mashing up elements of different legacy characters like them.

I never read Alejandra's book, but I was reading Venom, and Circle of Four was awful! Completely derailed that book and it's plot, nearly drove Remender's run into the ground (though he did manage to pull up and avoid the crash with his last arc). I wish they'd kept it in Ghost Rider's playground too, if only so I could have avoided it at the time.

I haven't read the books, but I have read about them, and it does seem kind of weird to throw Venom into a supernatural story like that, when the character never really seemed to have much of a supernatural connection.

 

[LJones41]

It's rather ironic that Robbie Reyes aka Ghost Rider will be appearing in "Agents of SHIELD", right on the heels of Chato Santana aka El Diablo being in "Suicide Squad".