Agents of SHIELD - Season 2 Discussion Threads. (Spoilers Likely)

[bbjeg]

Still, to be blunt...considering how reluctant we seem to be to accept a redemption arc for Ward...would a "switch to the good guys" arc for Raina be any more believable?

Well, I don't recall her killing anyone in cold blood, which seems to be the major hangup with Ward. She's clearly on the side of science rather than any personal scheme.

Well, she never wielded the actual weapon, sure...but frankly, a lot of her actions throughout the first season were pretty much all-but-direct acts of cold-blooded murder. Kidnapping people, subjecting them to mental and psychological torment (and sometimes physical), subjecting them to mind control and mind-breaking...yeah, that's pretty dark.

I mean, Hand and Koenig were just killed. Raina's victims oftentimes suffered through things that would make them beg for death.

Plus, she noted that "her serum" was pumping through Garret, the same serum that caused one person (at least) to blow up. Granted, Extremis was developed by someone else, but she knew the consequences before she added it to the centipede project.

With that said , I do agree her hands are dirty, but I don't think her hands are as dirty as Wards. Betrayal is harded to forgive IMO.

 

[Hartzilla2007]

Well, I don't recall her killing anyone in cold blood, which seems to be the major hangup with Ward. She's clearly on the side of science rather than any personal scheme.

Well, she never wielded the actual weapon, sure...but frankly, a lot of her actions throughout the first season were pretty much all-but-direct acts of cold-blooded murder. Kidnapping people, subjecting them to mental and psychological torment (and sometimes physical), subjecting them to mind control and mind-breaking...yeah, that's pretty dark.

I mean, Hand and Koenig were just killed. Raina's victims oftentimes suffered through things that would make them beg for death.

Plus, she noted that "her serum" was pumping through Garret, the same serum that caused one person (at least) to blow up. Granted, Extremis was developed by someone else, but she knew the consequences before she added it to the centipede project.

With that said , I do agree her hands are dirty, but I don't think her hands are as dirty as Wards. Betrayal is harded to forgive IMO.

You say that like Raina hasn't gone around stabbing people in the back.

 

[Rush Limborg]

^Heck, it's the woman's modus operandi!

 

[Guy Gardener]

That's not what she does.

Raina asks people to hold her knife, then suggests that they stab themselves, and slinks away as they bleed out.

 

[Mage]

I'm actually kinda happy with how they are dealing with Ward now.

I mean, he's sorry for his actions, but no why he did them, and would clearly do it again. You could tell he was geniually happy to see Fitz, but if Garrett showed up and told him to but a bullet through Fitz' head, he would do so in a heartbeat.

He doesn't believe in a cause. In any cause. He believed in Garrett. Now that he's gone, he is only himself. But since that was beaten out of him quite thoroughly, he has no clue who 'himself' actually is. His feelins for Skye are real, he just has no clue what to do with it, since his programming leaves for little free will. I mean, he tried to kill himself, twice now. Why? Because he is without purpose perhaps? Since there is nothing, is it perhaps only logical to die? Suicide, simply because reason (to Ward, that is) dictates that with nothing left, might as well turn off?

I dunno, I think Ward could become an interesting character.

 

[Guy Gardener]

I still can't get past the notion that he had no idea that Hydra was part of the NAZI Party.

That had to have been a game changer.

Blindly following Garret to be anything other than a NAZI was what he must have signed up for... Which is not something he did do.

[yt]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GwQW3KW3DCc[/yt]

But then almost everyone else chose to be a Nazi and walked into this lifestyle choice with their eyes open.



It's amazing how "everyone else" fits so comfortably into their shiny jackboots.

Do you think Jemma uses her own spit when she polishes her jackboots?

 

[DEWLine]

Jemma's got the Golden Excuse of wanting to tear those clowns down from the inside. So, probably. Gotta keep it convincing. Especially now that she's drawn Sunil Bakshi's attention.

 

[The Old Mixer]

I still can't get past the notion that he had no idea that Hydra was part of the NAZI Party.

IIRC, he didn't say that...he said that he wasn't a Nazi.

The first Cap film emphasized that Schmidt had his own agenda and it included blowing Berlin off the map along with the other major capitals.

Hydra grew from within Nazi Germany in the 1940s...just like it would spend the next several decades growing from within SHIELD. From that perspective, Hydra may consider themselves no more truly a part of the Nazi party than they were a part of SHIELD. The Nazi party is long dead and gone and of no more use to them, so they don't emphasize that connection.

 

[Guy Gardener]

What I recall is that she called him a NAZI, he says "Don't exaggerate" which is why she looks at like he's an idiot, and explains "Hydra was founded by the Nazi party in WWII, you LITERALLY are a NAZI!" which lands on him like a nut punch from a baby elephant.

My memory is not the best, but that's probably pretty close.

 

[The Old Mixer]

He's denying that he or his compatriots are actually Nazis...he's not necessarily expressing ignorance of Hydra's Nazi origins.

 

[Alidar Jarok]

He did have a bit of a confused "what?" but I'm sure that's subject to more than one interpretation.

 

[DEWLine]

He was also probably thinking of the other HYDRA operatives he may know of and based on that, thinking that the ethnic-supremacism crap was rightly tossed out the window somewhen between end of WW2 and his own recruitment, therefore...

He's likely got a bit more to learn, though, which Skye was trying to teach him at that point.

 

[Trekker4747]

Got around to watching this episode on the DVR.

Great, fun, episode and makes me really look forward to where the series goes from here! The fight between the "two" Mays was well done on the front of body double/split-screen effects. (But my buddy and I didn't buy for a minute the woman would fit May's appearance (how does the digital mask make her body's entire skin-tone, height and figure match May's?!) and we also knew the woman would blow it pretty quickly because she wouldn't be able to keep-up a May-like act.

I'm getting a bit weary of closed-off, stammering, Fitz. It's kind of tiring to see him continually talk to Hallucination!Simmons and search for words.

Talbot is becoming a good, fun, recurring character.

Pretty good episode.

 

[Rush Limborg]

Thank goodness the episode's end seems to imply that Fitz is working his way out of the stumbling over his words--his conversation with the other guys about past loves was (pleasantly) surprising in how he didn't really stumble.

 

[Guy Gardener]

Head-Simmons seems to be able to complete sentences fine.

Unless she's actually going at 1/4 speed but the filmation is regulating her bit rate for our convenience?

 

[bbjeg]

Well, she never wielded the actual weapon, sure...but frankly, a lot of her actions throughout the first season were pretty much all-but-direct acts of cold-blooded murder. Kidnapping people, subjecting them to mental and psychological torment (and sometimes physical), subjecting them to mind control and mind-breaking...yeah, that's pretty dark.

I mean, Hand and Koenig were just killed. Raina's victims oftentimes suffered through things that would make them beg for death.

Plus, she noted that "her serum" was pumping through Garret, the same serum that caused one person (at least) to blow up. Granted, Extremis was developed by someone else, but she knew the consequences before she added it to the centipede project.

With that said , I do agree her hands are dirty, but I don't think her hands are as dirty as Wards. Betrayal is harded to forgive IMO.

You say that like Raina hasn't gone around stabbing people in the back.

Has Raina really betrayed anyone? In Mike's case, Mike broke the contract first by drawing attention in the first episode (as well as joining Shield), she showed Coulson the truth (under Garrett's orders), she did what Garrett requested by completing the serum, and she didn't betray Skye's father, who she was working for the whole time.

 

[Hartzilla2007]

Plus, she noted that "her serum" was pumping through Garret, the same serum that caused one person (at least) to blow up. Granted, Extremis was developed by someone else, but she knew the consequences before she added it to the centipede project.

With that said , I do agree her hands are dirty, but I don't think her hands are as dirty as Wards. Betrayal is harded to forgive IMO.

You say that like Raina hasn't gone around stabbing people in the back.

Has Raina really betrayed anyone? In Mike's case, Mike broke the contract first by drawing attention in the first episode (as well as joining Shield), she showed Coulson the truth (under Garrett's orders), she did what Garrett requested by completing the serum, and she didn't betray Skye's father, who she was working for the whole time.

Chan, Poe, the female doctor from the pilot, bailing on Garett.

Yeah, she kind of stabs people in the back.

 

[Turtletrekker]

Not to mention kidnapping Ace.

 

[The Old Mixer]

They're not running a convent....If they want to get SHIELD up and running again, they may have to work with some nasty people...and be ever vigilant that one of them doesn't turn out to be the next Arnim Zola.

 

[Alidar Jarok]

You say that like Raina hasn't gone around stabbing people in the back.

Has Raina really betrayed anyone? In Mike's case, Mike broke the contract first by drawing attention in the first episode (as well as joining Shield), she showed Coulson the truth (under Garrett's orders), she did what Garrett requested by completing the serum, and she didn't betray Skye's father, who she was working for the whole time.

Chan, Poe, the female doctor from the pilot, bailing on Garett.

Yeah, she kind of stabs people in the back.

Well, Chan killed the female doctor. Garrett killed Poe (I'm going to assume she knew what he was going to do, but we don't know that). I wouldn't call abandoning Garrett in the end there backstabbing him (for starters, she had every right to leave after being recruited under false pretenses), but I don't recall her abandoning him anyway (it's been awhile). My memory was that she was fascinated by his condition and wanted to see what would happen.

ETA: Kidnapping Ace is a much better example, though. She's certainly not a great person. But you people have high standards for redemption. Remember back in the day when people wanted Gul Dukat to be redeemed? All these characters combined couldn't reach him.