Agents of SHIELD - Season 2 Discussion Threads. (Spoilers Likely)

[RJDiogenes]

This was the best episode of the season so far, without a doubt. The scene where Fitz discovers that Sky's "asset" is Ward almost made the whole HYDRA fiasco worthwhile. That guy is a great actor and he really got to show it. And I really love how Mack has taken Fitz under his wing. That's some really good writing.

And Coulson is again acting more like his old self. I loved him showing up at Simmons' place to cook dinner. And the dialogue was a bit more character driven again, like it was in the first half of season one. "You weren't asking about making friends because you were worried about my feelings, were you?"

 

[Forbin]

Which reminds me, I can't believe Hydra doesn't have Simmons' place bugged. Coulson was crazy to go there. Of course SHIELD could have counter-bugging jammers. But hydra would know that and have counter-bugging-jammer jammers. Which of course SHIELD could counter with...

Or maybe Hydra would just have an agent watching her apartment until such time as they decide to trust her.

Anyway it was tactically unsound to show up at her apartment. Risky.

 

[Reverend]

Which reminds me, I can't believe Hydra doesn't have Simmons' place bugged. Coulson was crazy to go there. Of course SHIELD could have counter-bugging jammers. But hydra would know that and have counter-bugging-jammer jammers. Which of course SHIELD could counter with...

Or maybe Hydra would just have an agent watching her apartment until such time as they decide to trust her.

Anyway it was tactically unsound to show up at her apartment. Risky.

If Coulson can't get in and out of a place without being noticed, even (or especially?) a place that's under surveillance he wouldn't be a very good spy, much less have any business being Fury's successor, no?

 

[dansigal]

Well.. let's look at (Joss) Whedons' Spike and Angel.. both initially some very dark villains (in Angel's case it's rather Angelus) who got to be fan favorites and slowly grew to become heroes in (at least to me) believable ways but it also took several seasons of character growth.

I'm not saying it can't be done but it'll require some major and solid writing on behalf of the production team if that's their goal at all.

As i said already i think it would be far better to get the viewers to the point of wanting him back on the team only to remind us harshly about what he's done before killing him off in a blaze of glory (or for bonus points going out like a punk).

I don't think Angel is a good comparison, because Angelus is literally a different person/creature inhabiting Angel's body, so it's not an issue of actual redemption for decisions made and actions taken. I will admit, when I was typing my thoughts on Ward, Spike is the one example that came to mind that seemed hypocritical. I'll say though that it's distinguishable because it's a bit more fantasy and Spike as a vampire was doing what vampires do naturally and then he decides to go and get a soul and all that. While AoS has some scifi elements to it clearly, its def a more grounded show and there's no real distinction between Ward and any other normal human being who murders people because it fits their agenda. Any attempt to make Ward a hero would never sit with me. He's a cop killer.

 

[Guy Gardener]

"Spike doesn't need a soul, he's got a chip."

(yes I know what happened later, but it's somehow one of my favourite lines.)

 

[Alidar Jarok]

Well.. let's look at (Joss) Whedons' Spike and Angel.. both initially some very dark villains (in Angel's case it's rather Angelus) who got to be fan favorites and slowly grew to become heroes in (at least to me) believable ways but it also took several seasons of character growth.

I'm not saying it can't be done but it'll require some major and solid writing on behalf of the production team if that's their goal at all.

As i said already i think it would be far better to get the viewers to the point of wanting him back on the team only to remind us harshly about what he's done before killing him off in a blaze of glory (or for bonus points going out like a punk).

I don't think Angel is a good comparison, because Angelus is literally a different person/creature inhabiting Angel's body, so it's not an issue of actual redemption for decisions made and actions taken. I will admit, when I was typing my thoughts on Ward, Spike is the one example that came to mind that seemed hypocritical. I'll say though that it's distinguishable because it's a bit more fantasy and Spike as a vampire was doing what vampires do naturally and then he decides to go and get a soul and all that. While AoS has some scifi elements to it clearly, its def a more grounded show and there's no real distinction between Ward and any other normal human being who murders people because it fits their agenda. Any attempt to make Ward a hero would never sit with me. He's a cop killer.

Well, Ward is a spy and he's killing for his spy mission. Skye killed last week someone who was being brainwashed and not in control of their own actions. It was necessary to complete the mission.

To me, Ward's problem isn't the mere fact that he killed, it's that he did it while betraying the team. I suggested Hand's killing was a situation where he didn't have much of a choice (kill Hand or kill Garrett). The two in the tower were the same (Garrett outed them). I would imagine there was a viable non-lethal plan but Garrett couldn't help himself. Finally, the cop was while trying to escape capture. His problem is he did all this while in pursuit of an evil cause (the only caveat is he didn't care about the cause, he just had a job).

 

[Guy Gardener]

Evil?

He wasn't told that he was doing evil.

He wasn't even told about Hydra's ties to the Nazis.

One pack of assholes already control the world secretly 14 levels above presidential security clearance, so why not his pack of assholes instead?

Shuffling Command at that level is fair game because the public is ignorant and oblivious.

No one cares how the sausage is made.

It's just unfortunate that all the carnage didn't stay at that level.

If Nick Fury hadn't made trouble, those 10 million dead would have been a weapons glitch. Hydra could have stayed below the surface, and Fury would have been held accountable and jailed for life.

Then Hydra would have ruled a world more to their liking as S.H.I.E.L.D. and a lot of other institutions.

 

[bbjeg]

Skye killed last week someone who was being brainwashed and not in control of their own actions. It was necessary to complete the mission.

First, since that episode went the extra effort of saying they didn't find Donny's body, he's probably still alive, and second, Skye didn't know he was brainwashed, just evil, and rightly so because Donny killed the threatened waiter earlier.

Evil?

He wasn't told that he was doing evil...

Just because you're not told you're doing evil doesn't mean you don't know you're doing evil. Excluding Shield (aka, Hydra's evil), Ward still shot those police officers who were just doing their job, having no lethal intent. He knows he did wrong in the new season as well.

 

[Guy Gardener]

Sorry.

"The Greater Good".

Ward can do a lot of bad things to make sure that the greater good is achieved.

Saving the World vs. Killing a few cops who he assumed would be on his side if they knew the truth.

If Hydra had won in The Winter Soldier, then Ward would have been a righteous man saving the world deserving a chest full of medals, and no one would have been alive to tell him any different.

...

He "thought" that he was doing the right thing.

Sure he was wrong, but it's what he thought.

 

[Alidar Jarok]

Skye killed last week someone who was being brainwashed and not in control of their own actions. It was necessary to complete the mission.

First, since that episode went the extra effort of saying they didn't find Donny's body, he's probably still alive, and second, Skye didn't know he was brainwashed, just evil, and rightly so because Donny killed the threatened waiter earlier.

Well, I was speaking from her perspective, so whether or not he's actually dead is irrelevant. If the police officer turned out to be a LMD (or more realistically, if Koenig did), it wouldn't change Ward's actions. Skye didn't know Donny had killed a waiter earlier and certainly didn't know the waiter was being coerced (although I think Donny's actions were justified under those circumstances, but that's another conversation). What she knew was that Hydra wanted to capture assets and that some assets were brainwashed (iirc, that was the first conversation of the day with Ward). Until that moment, she thought Donny Gill was on the run from Hydra because that's what the evidence showed (and that's what was in fact true). She was in radio contact with May and Lance and knew that Hydra (Simmons) trapped him inside the ship. From all that, I'm sure she was able to conclude that he was being brainwashed.

I don't think that changed the mission. Hell, even if he wasn't actively brainwashed, the orders from Coulson were to capture or kill Donny Gill to prevent him from falling into the hands of Hydra. I won't add that this is what Ward said was Hydra's plan (and why Hydra would win).

 

[Nerys Myk]

I liked the name-drop of Dr. Faustus in reference to HYDRA's brainwashing technique. I wonder if we will see the character either on AoS or Agent Carter?

I'd say more likely the latter. I mean we already have three immortal WWII era Hydra-Nazis kicking around (plus Red Skull will probably show up again at some point) just how many more could there be? ...not that I'd put it past them mind you.

Faustus wasn't a WWII villain, but a modern day one ( well 1960s at first) so he's not tied to the Nazis in the comics.

 

[Hartzilla2007]

May and Lance

Who I might add Gill was in the middle of trying to kill, which is probably the main reason Skye shot him.

 

[Enterprise1701]

I wonder what Whitehall and his HYDRA cell have been up to before season 2? Whatever would they have spent their time doing in their facility before Captain America: The Winter Soldier?

 

[Alidar Jarok]

May and Lance

Who I might add Gill was in the middle of trying to kill, which is probably the main reason Skye shot him.

Yes. But he wasn't in control of his actions.

I don't have any problem whatsoever with Skye's decision (I got the impression Skye was more bothered than I was). But it's still a matter of perspective and value. Certainly, some think SHIELD is a reprehensible organization. They still do questionable things. Skye took the shot when faced with the extreme of needing to protect two agents, but her mission was capture or kill. More importantly, Gill was trying to kill two agents who shared that same message. While killing a Hydra agent may have been preferable when Lance had the shot (certainly, if it wasn't Simmons, they would have taken that shot), Coulson's orders applied equally to taking out Gill inside the ship.

My only point was that ever kill that Ward had was done in service of his mission. None were for fun or enjoyment or personal gain. We disagree with his actions because we disagree with his mission. If we agreed with his mission, the actions would be seen as justified.

 

[RJDiogenes]

^^ That's true. And his only mission was to be Garrett's boy toy. Now that Garrett's gone-- what? Is he free? Or is he looking for a new master?

Which reminds me, I can't believe Hydra doesn't have Simmons' place bugged. Coulson was crazy to go there. Of course SHIELD could have counter-bugging jammers. But hydra would know that and have counter-bugging-jammer jammers. Which of course SHIELD could counter with...

Or maybe Hydra would just have an agent watching her apartment until such time as they decide to trust her.

Anyway it was tactically unsound to show up at her apartment. Risky.

That occurred to me as well, but it's easy enough to hand wave in a show like this. I just imagine that Coulson was carrying a standard SHIELD bug debugger.

I will admit, when I was typing my thoughts on Ward, Spike is the one example that came to mind that seemed hypocritical. I'll say though that it's distinguishable because it's a bit more fantasy and Spike as a vampire was doing what vampires do naturally and then he decides to go and get a soul and all that.

Spike was compromised, because of his lack of a soul. In fantasy terms, we can see that as the equivalent of mental illness or a brain tumor or something. However, there have been examples of reprehensible characters being redeemed-- Londo Mollari is probably the classic example.

 

[Guy Gardener]

Angel cough Season cough Five cough.

 

[bbjeg]

It's been awhile since I seen Angel (though I won't forget the finale's "I call the Dragon") but Spike gets a soul, right?

...
My only point was that ever kill that Ward had was done in service of his mission. None were for fun or enjoyment or personal gain. We disagree with his actions because we disagree with his mission. If we agreed with his mission, the actions would be seen as justified.

Thomas Nash's death was somewhat for personal gain.

 

[Alidar Jarok]

You may have to elaborate. Nash's death was actually extremely cold-blooded, I'd agree with that, but it was part of the mission. But I don't think he gained anything personal there, it was to put everyone off the trail of Garrett.

 

[DEWLine]

Protecting Garrett would be a personal enough gain for Ward, regardless of other strategic and tactical considerations.

 

[Alidar Jarok]

Well, it's only personal because he believed he owed a debt. There was no future material gain for Ward, only a belief of paying back past benefits.