Agents of SHIELD - Season 2 Discussion Threads. (Spoilers Likely)

[Guy Gardener]

1. Data did that in Redemption.

2. Bobbie saved 12 agents by endangering she hoped less than 12 agents, but maybe zero agents. As long as less than 12 Agents died as a result of her gamble, she's good. If when the safe house was breeched that 13 agents died, she would have been wrong to make the decision she had and therefore apologised to everyone that had it coming.

 

[bbjeg]

Because Mac's an idiot, but he's not brain dead. He needed help, and he saw Skye being carried unconcious, and then locked up, by the other inhumans. In other words, the enemy of my enemy is my friend.

Or maybe, just maybe, Mack decided that Skye is, herself, his friend, too.

Except he wanted her locked up and studied after she changed. He didn't want her let out or back on the team. Nothing changed between then and this episode with Mac, and he wasn't exactly friendly this episode anyway. All he proved is that he can be practical when he absolutely has to be.

Nothing changed? He went from being cautious about all things alien and wanting to leaving so long as alien altered Coulson was in charge to staying, accepting powered individuals as teammates, and heading the alien division.

... I think she's worse than Ward personally, but I know I'm in the minority with that opinion...

I think your the only one with that opinion. Ward, aka Shield killer/Hydra killer/random people killer (like those cops that Skye ran to when she outted him) =/= Mockingbird, aka Shield Agent (from the start*)/Hydra killer/person who gave up a random safe house not knowing who was there to get intelligence on a Hydra head, his next in command, the splinter bombs (that they were trying to upgrade into weapons of mass destruction), and what ever else that was on the hard drive she took from Hydra (including info on Hydra obtained powered individuals like Blizzard) saving countless lives.

*We've discussed this before. Mockingbird didn't know Fury lived and gave Coulson the keys to the kingdom. All she knew was Coulson was part of an undercover experiment (possibly Hydra ran, sharing May's fears) and that he went rogue with all the intelligence Shield had. I take it Gonzales holds the same title as Coulson so she can say she's always been loyal to Shield. Ward can't.

It's starting to feel like you're arguing just to argue.

 

[Guy Gardener]

Mac is UN assigned civilian oversight next year?

 

[Mr. Adventure]

At least they have the season break to try to repair all the scenery that Kyle Maclachlan was chewing. He was definitely all-in lol.

 

[theenglish]

Woah, that was quite a season finale.

So Jiaying's powers were vampiric in nature. How come that never occurred to me?

Whatever the heck happened to Jemma? Isn't Elizabeth Henstridge on the cast list for season 3?

Jeffrey Bell is one of the showrunners and he was in charge of Angel when a main character was killed but the actress remained on the show as the character who replaced her. Amy Acker as Fred who gets her body taken over and replaced by an ancient demon Illyria.

The actress may remain but Jemma may be changed/gone.

Was anything ever said about the possibility of Fred returning if the show had been renewed for a sixth season?

As for Jemma, she could easily be running around like nothing ever happened at the beginning of the next season--whatever the Kree thing does to her doesn't have to be obvious from the start. It could still be her--or it might not.

 

[kirk55555]

Nothing changed? He went from being cautious about all things alien and wanting to leaving so long as alien altered Coulson was in charge to staying, accepting powered individuals as teammates, and heading the alien division.

He only stayed because the psychologist managed to convince him, probably by putting a "Do you really want Coulson not being closely watched" spin on things. As for heading the alien division, he's a paranoid idiot who will probably watch the alien tech like a hawk. If nothing else, Coulson knows Mac will be so freaked out by alien stuff he'll probably protect it with more enthusiasm than the average agent.

I think your the only one with that opinion. Ward, aka Shield killer/Hydra killer/random people killer (like those cops that Skye ran to when she outted him) =/= Mockingbird, aka Shield Agent (from the start*)/Hydra killer/person who gave up a random safe house not knowing who was there to get intelligence on a Hydra head, his next in command, the splinter bombs (that they were trying to upgrade into weapons of mass destruction), and what ever else that was on the hard drive she took from Hydra (including info on Hydra obtained powered individuals like Blizzard) saving countless lives.

Ward at least has the excuse that he is legitimately crazy. He is definitely not a guy who is right in the head. Mockingbird is a prejudiced, idiotic toady who just doesn't care about anything unless its herself or Gonzales (and maybe Mac, as long as it doesn't interfere with her first two loyalties), but she is sane. I hold crazy people to different standards. Ward is evil and his actions are inexcusable, but at least he's outright said to be a psychopath. Also, whose to say Mockingbird accomplished anything? Someone else could have done what she did, and probably without sacrificing innocent people. The real sHIELD would have defeated Whitehall by itself anyway, since, unlike Gonzales, Coulson and the real SHIELD actually ared about stopping HYDRA and helping people.

*We've discussed this before. Mockingbird didn't know Fury lived and gave Coulson the keys to the kingdom. All she knew was Coulson was part of an undercover experiment (possibly Hydra ran, sharing May's fears) and that he went rogue with all the intelligence Shield had. I take it Gonzales holds the same title as Coulson so she can say she's always been loyal to Shield. Ward can't.

That excuse doesn't fit once she's spent time with Coulson. By the time she was called to put Gonzales's HYDRA style betrayal into action, she had more than enough evidence that Coulson was the level. The only thing holding her back was her being Gonzales's gutless minion, and her prejudice against powered people/aliens/etc. Ward is just a crazy guy, Mockingbird has no excuse to pick Gonzales over Coulson, outside of the already mentioned brainless obedience and prejudice.

It's starting to feel like you're arguing just to argue.

Disagreeing with you doesn't equal "arguing just to argue".

So what would you have done in her situation?

Well, I'd have told the writers not to create the situation

I'm not a spy, and the situation is pretty over the top anyway. But, I'd say break cover and leave would be a better idea then betraying SHIELD agents to HYDRA. Assuming breaking cover was literally impossible, maybe trying to find a way to sneak info to SHIELD about captured agents? Or, and this is admittedly a very grim choice, but maybe find some way to end a SHIELD agent's suffering before she's turned into a brainwashed psycho?

If Mockingbird was a good enough spy to get decently high in at least the HYDRA branch we saw, she could have done something besides just ignore what she did. She just acts like its a totally normal thing to do.

I think she's worse than Ward personally, but I know I'm in the minority with that opinion. If nothing else, the writers proved they could make Ward and Agent 33 slightly sympathetic, by putting them against a more unlikeable character.

That is simply insane. Someone who does exactly the job they are suposed to do, without knowingly doing harm to anyone but saving other Agents against a psychotic mass-murderer. I guess it's clear, who's the more sympathetic one...to a complete psychopath.

At least you can feel sorry for agent 33. Mockingbird is just a horrible person who betrayed a SHIELD agent for less reason than Ward did. Also, crazy people like Ward have at least some excuse. Mockingbird isn't supposed to be a psychopath, she's supposed to have some measure of humanity, which to date we've still never seen.

 

[CorporalClegg]

At least you can feel sorry for agent 33. Mockingbird is just a horrible person who betrayed a SHIELD agent for less reason than Ward did.

No. She put the mission first. The mission always comes first. 33 knew that when she signed the dotted line.

It wasn't even just about the 12 people. If her cover was blown, then Gemma gets caught. Gemma gets caught and Hydra wins.

Your argument sucks.

 

[Hartzilla2007]

At least you can feel sorry for agent 33. Mockingbird is just a horrible person who betrayed a SHIELD agent for less reason than Ward did.

No. She put the mission first. The mission always comes first. 33 knew that when she signed the dotted line.

Um, why do people keep treating this like Kara was ordered to do this, or volunteered or something.

It wasn't, this was a case of her being unintentionally screwed over. I'd like to think Mockingbird wouldn't be so callus as to do it on purpose.

And I'm not sure using the "Ends justify the means" argument helps considering all the screwed up stuff in real life that particular argument has been used to justify.

 

[Non Sync]

I know I'm the one who suggested the artefact might be Venom symbiont related (and it still might figure into it regardless) but now I'm wondering if it's the thing that converted the ancient humans into Inhumans in the first place? It'd make sense that the Inhumans would fear it since after all, if it made them then it stands to reason it could unmake them too.

Of course that would mean Simmons could emerge from that thing an Inhuman, which would be enormously ironic. Of course it's also possible she already is and that's why it grabbed her.

I'm thinking it could be this:

Certainly sounds like a good match. Could be a set-up for Captain Marvel after all?

Kyle MacLachlan continues to be the highlight of any scene he's in.

Whoa, and there goes the feeling in my legs!


So I just now realized that Fitz dropped a fake Breaking Bad reference in the middle of the fight with Gordon. Nice. Where does Fitz fall on the Pinkman-White scale?

Regarding whether people would know what happened to Simmons, I just watched the end again, and the door to the alien whatever was still open when the scene ended, so they'll have an idea of what happened pretty quickly.

And regarding whatever Fitz is building, here's a small screenshot. Maybe some of the HD folks will come along later and give us a better pic. (If it's not already up on the internet by now.)

Spoiler: blueprints

Certainly looks like a new Bus. The cross-section looks very uch like the C-5's so they may end up redressing some of the old Bus sets. The ramp and the cockpit almost certainly. Not sure what the top left one is supposed to be though.

Colson did say they needed to be more mobile.

 

[Grendelsbayne]

An absolutely fantastic finale. I'm 100% convinced now that Jemma is going to be a new (pseudo?) supervillain. Her extreme reactions to superpowered people combined with her now having merged with an alien weapon specifically created to destroy the Inhumans is too much of a coincidence. The only questions left are how much of her will still be her and will anyone else realize what's happened?

Is it just me, though, or is Gordon suddenly a lot less competent in this episode? I was sure Mac was about to die in that scene because he couldn't possibly hold off a guy with those abilities by himself. Coulson and Fitz should've arrived to either Mac's dead/incapacitated body or just an empty room. I mean all Gordon should've need to do was teleport behind Mac, grab him and then instantly dump him somewhere else. Crystals no longer guarded, problem solved...

 

[RJDiogenes]

Holy Toledo, that was quite a finale indeed. It made up for last week, no doubt about it.

We certainly did get, pardon the expression, closure on a number of characters, most of whom I'm sorry to see go. Especially Raina. She was a good character, played by a very interesting actress, so I'm surprised they killed her off. It was a shame to see Skye's mom die, too. I won't miss 33 or Gordon much, though. I was hoping Ward would finally die, but he takes a licking and keeps on ticking. And now he's the boss of HYDRA. Sigh.

Speaking of taking a licking and continuing to tick, I've completely changed my mind about Bobbie's ability to carry her own show. That was quite a performance, in more ways than one. Taking the bullet for Hunter like that reminded me of that old poem, "The Highwayman." I'm sure she and Hunter will both decide to stay with SHIELD. Mack already has, thank goodness.

We pretty much got closure on Cal, too. I'll miss him. He turned out to be quite an amazing character. And I loved the showdown between him and Coulson. All Coulson wanted to do was to get him to talk it through, and it worked. This is what makes Coulson different from Gonzalez and the other so-called leaders. He'll find a peaceful solution if there's one to be found-- and if there isn't, then your ass is as good as kicked.

And I guess we know now that the GH serum would not have protected him if he had gone to see Jiaying instead of Gonzalez. That was a quick response on Mack's part, but wow-- what will he do now? Get a cybernetic hand, like Deathlok? Or will there be some Inhuman treatment that will give him his hand back? Or will he just go through the rest of the series one-handed? Maybe this is meant to symbolically confirm that he is now Fury-- he has been irrevocably scarred.

I knew letting that plane go over the side was not a good idea. Looks like there will be an explosion of super-powered individuals in the near future. Unfortunately, a bigger explosion of gray, crumbly dead people. They've definitely ventured into Wild Cards territory.

Overall, it was a nice climax to everything that's been going on, with a generally hopeful epilogue. Coulson is back in charge, he and Skye are planning to recruit and train Inhumans, Mack is still on board, and it looks like Fitz and Gemma will finally be getting together.

Except that she got eaten by the Blob.

I haven't seen the episode yet, but the talk of Gemma being absorbed into the goop makes me think it might be the Supreme Intelligence or a piece of the Supreme Intelligence. Or have they already introduced the SI in Guardians of the Galaxy or something?

You shouldn't be reading this stuff. It's nothing but spoilers.

No problem there. I'm a spoiler hound.

 

[bbjeg]

Except he wanted her locked up and studied after she changed. He didn't want her let out or back on the team. Nothing changed between then and this episode with Mac, and he wasn't exactly friendly this episode anyway. All he proved is that he can be practical when he absolutely has to be.

Nothing changed? He went from being cautious about all things alien and wanting to leaving so long as alien altered Coulson was in charge to staying, accepting powered individuals as teammates, and heading the alien division.

He only stayed because the psychologist managed to convince him, probably by putting a "Do you really want Coulson not being closely watched" spin on things...

So he didn't change even though he did?

I think your the only one with that opinion. Ward, aka Shield killer/Hydra killer/random people killer (like those cops that Skye ran to when she outted him) =/= Mockingbird, aka Shield Agent (from the start*)/Hydra killer/person who gave up a random safe house not knowing who was there to get intelligence on a Hydra head, his next in command, the splinter bombs (that they were trying to upgrade into weapons of mass destruction), and what ever else that was on the hard drive she took from Hydra (including info on Hydra obtained powered individuals like Blizzard) saving countless lives.

...Mockingbird is a prejudiced, idiotic toady who just doesn't care about anything unless its herself or Gonzales (and maybe Mac, as long as it doesn't interfere with her first two loyalties), but she is sane. I hold crazy people to different standards. Ward is evil and his actions are inexcusable, but at least he's outright said to be a psychopath. Also, whose to say Mockingbird accomplished anything? Someone else could have done what she did, and probably without sacrificing innocent people. The real sHIELD would have defeated Whitehall by itself anyway, since, unlike Gonzales, Coulson and the real SHIELD actually ared about stopping HYDRA and helping people.

We saw her accomplish things. Regardless that someone else could have done it better, Mockingbird got the hard drive, revealing Hydra's secret weapon, and I think her intel directly resulted with the chopping off of those next in line Hydra heads.

*We've discussed this before. Mockingbird didn't know Fury lived and gave Coulson the keys to the kingdom. All she knew was Coulson was part of an undercover experiment (possibly Hydra ran, sharing May's fears) and that he went rogue with all the intelligence Shield had. I take it Gonzales holds the same title as Coulson so she can say she's always been loyal to Shield. Ward can't.

That excuse doesn't fit once she's spent time with Coulson. By the time she was called to put Gonzales's HYDRA style betrayal into action, she had more than enough evidence that Coulson was the level. The only thing holding her back was her being Gonzales's gutless minion, and her prejudice against powered people/aliens/etc. Ward is just a crazy guy, Mockingbird has no excuse to pick Gonzales over Coulson, outside of the already mentioned brainless obedience and prejudice.

There you go, making more crap up. Mockingbird was not on the same level as Coulson. It was stated that half of Coulson's funds was going to Theta protocol. She can't be on the same level if she only saw half of his actions. And you keep calling people prejudice and I don't think you know what it means. Mockingbird defended Skye multiple times.

It's starting to feel like you're arguing just to argue.

Disagreeing with you doesn't equal "arguing just to argue".

No, but making up stuff to argue does.

 

[bbjeg]

...most of whom I'm sorry to see go. Especially Raina. She was a good character, played by a very interesting actress, so I'm surprised they killed her off...

Me too. Maybe she saw it coming and she knew the stab wouldn't kill her.

...And I guess we know now that the GH serum would not have protected him if he had gone to see Jiaying instead of Gonzalez...

Not for sure. Skye was cocooned in stone before changing too, and even though she acted differently to the Kree injection, it doesn't mean Coulson wouldn't have changed.

Maybe this is meant to symbolically confirm that he is now Fury-- he has been irrevocably scarred.

I think the scar across Coulson's heart was cooler than an eyepatch. I guess now he has two reminders (three if you include him being cut up by that "help you remember" masochist).

I haven't seen the episode yet, but the talk of Gemma being absorbed into the goop makes me think it might be the Supreme Intelligence or a piece of the Supreme Intelligence. Or have they already introduced the SI in Guardians of the Galaxy or something?

You shouldn't be reading this stuff. It's nothing but spoilers.

No problem there. I'm a spoiler hound.

Each his own. I learned my lesson after spoiling myself so bad with the first X-Men movie, that I knew the entire story while watching it, which wasn't that fun for me. I also used to read the book that any particular movie was based on first before seeing the movie but learned, 9 times out of ten, that the books are generally better.

 

[Richard Baker]

Spoilers never bother me- knowing what happens does not take away from the fun is seeing how it happens. Everybody already knew the Titanic would sink but still enjoyed the movie.
I really liked how things ended with Cal- he got a life he really enjoyed and deserved. I think he was one of the most engaging guest stars to appear in almost any series on TV.

 

[.:: TSN ::.]

...most of whom I'm sorry to see go. Especially Raina. She was a good character, played by a very interesting actress, so I'm surprised they killed her off...

Me too. Maybe she saw it coming and she knew the stab wouldn't kill her.

Stab definately killed her. Actress has also been cast in Preacher, so she probably wanted out.

...And I guess we know now that the GH serum would not have protected him if he had gone to see Jiaying instead of Gonzalez...

Not for sure. Skye was cocooned in stone before changing too, and even though she acted differently to the Kree injection, it doesn't mean Coulson wouldn't have changed.

Skye was already half Inhuman. GH serum had nothing to do with the change.

 

[bbjeg]

^I know, I was saying the GH serum may have allowed Coulson to change.

 

[Christopher]

^I know, I was saying the GH serum may have allowed Coulson to change.

And I really don't think it works that way. Kree blood is one thing, Inhuman DNA is another. Inhumans are not Kree, they're humans who were genetically engineered by the Kree. And I'm sure that genetic engineering was done by different means than just injecting Kree blood into them. I mean, Dr. Erskine created Captain America, but that doesn't mean you could make a supersoldier by injecting them with Erskine's own blood.

 

[bbjeg]

^That's not quite the same thing. We don't know what transpired when the Kree made the first humans. It may very well be as simple as injecting they're blood in them.

 

[Christopher]

^That's not quite the same thing. We don't know what transpired when the Kree made the first humans. It may very well be as simple as injecting they're blood in them.

Out of all the countless ways they could've done it, that's just one remote possibility. You have no reason for favoring it other than that it's the one that would make you right. Which is purely circular reasoning.

 

[Hartzilla2007]

^That's not quite the same thing. We don't know what transpired when the Kree made the first humans. It may very well be as simple as injecting they're blood in them.

Out of all the countless ways they could've done it, that's just one remote possibility. You have no reason for favoring it other than that it's the one that would make you right. Which is purely circular reasoning.

Plus Skye wasn't turned to stone by terragenesis she was wrapped in a cocoon, so that pretty much shoots down Coulson getting inhuman powers becuasae of Kree blood.