Agents of SHIELD - Season 2 Discussion Threads. (Spoilers Likely)

[bbjeg]

^ I think Fitz opened it by mistake.

Hey Sci, you misquoted me there. I'd rather not look like I agree with Kirk.

 

[Christopher]

^ I think Fitz opened it by mistake.

Yes, absolutely. He was trying to be all flirty and debonair by leaning on the side of the container, and he accidentally put his weight on the latch and flipped it open. And they were both too distracted by their flirting to realize what had happened.

 

[Sci]

^ I think Fitz opened it by mistake.

Hey Sci, you misquoted me there. I'd rather not look like I agree with Kirk.

Apologies! Fixed.

 

[kirk55555]

So, you're trying to rationalize that you were "mostly right" by trying to say that you didn't actually make any predictions to get wrong?

Is that like a baseball team being undefeated because the season hasn't started yet?

All I said was that I was mostly right about Agent 33's problem with Mockingbird. That's it. I haven't made any other predictions to be right or wrong about. I stated various scenarios I wished would happen, but that I was aware wouldn't actually happen. I didn't predict May would kill Mockingbird. I wished that we'd see May snap Mockingbird like a twig. If I had made a wrong prediction, i'd say so. Last time I checked, wishing for something was not the same as predicting it.

Mac wasn't around during the Asgardian episodes. From his point of view, every alien visit was a hostile one (Kree, Chatauri, Elves, and even Thor who leaves the area he fights in a mess). Calling him prejudice (aka having a preconceived opinion that is not based on reason) isn't the word for being cautious.

He's not being cautious. He hates powered people. There is a difference between caution and hatred.

Was that why he saved Skye?

Because Mac's an idiot, but he's not brain dead. He needed help, and he saw Skye being carried unconcious, and then locked up, by the other inhumans. In other words, the enemy of my enemy is my friend.

Okay, I'll edit that.

..you have been about as far away from being "right" about the developments this season with your conclusions as anyone could possibly be, so it amuses me to see you still patting yourself on the back and continuing to take over-the-top stances against the characters you dislike despite all that has happened in the intervening episodes...

Nope, wishes, not conclusions. Well, unless you're talking about character motivations. But, I'm no more wrong about mac and Mockingbird than you are right, its all opinion. I'll admit that I loathe them enough that I'm predisposed to not give them the benefit of the doubt, but they're such horribly written characters that they really don't deserve that.

 

[Sci]

Was that why he saved Skye?

Because Mac's an idiot, but he's not brain dead. He needed help, and he saw Skye being carried unconcious, and then locked up, by the other inhumans. In other words, the enemy of my enemy is my friend.

Or maybe, just maybe, Mack decided that Skye is, herself, his friend, too.

 

[kirk55555]

Was that why he saved Skye?

Because Mac's an idiot, but he's not brain dead. He needed help, and he saw Skye being carried unconcious, and then locked up, by the other inhumans. In other words, the enemy of my enemy is my friend.

Or maybe, just maybe, Mack decided that Skye is, herself, his friend, too.

Except he wanted her locked up and studied after she changed. He didn't want her let out or back on the team. Nothing changed between then and this episode with Mac, and he wasn't exactly friendly this episode anyway. All he proved is that he can be practical when he absolutely has to be.

 

[Avalon]

I think she cares. She went out of her way to try to befriend Kara when Kara was at SHIELD HQ. But she does not regret her choice, even if she regrets the harm that came from that choice against her will. Again, to her mind, it's a question of "Potential for no or less harm vs. certainty of great harm?" She made her choice and feels confident that it was the best possible choice she could have made at that time given the information she had.

So why does she seem so uncompassionate towards Kara in "S.O.S.?" Well, because Kara has kidnapped her and is in the process of torturing her. I wouldn't be too inclined to show compassion towards Kara's suffering if Kara were torturing me, either. That's not because she doesn't regret Kara's pain -- it's because Kara's pain does not justify her present actions.

I agree. But I think there's also something else.

Let's say Bobbi delivers the most beautiful, sincere apology Kara could have ever hoped for. What then? They patch up Bobbi and send her home?

No. They kill her.

Bobbi didn't give them what they wanted, not because she was heartless, but because it was the best way for her to stay alive. And every moment she stonewalled them was more time for her to escape, or for the team to find her.



(Also -- you don't go by what Bobbi says -- you go by what Bobbi does. Taking that bullet for Hunter says volumes. Bobbi keeps her real emotions under tighter control than even May, I think.)

 

[Enterprise1701]

Woah, that was quite a season finale.

So Jiaying's powers were vampiric in nature. How come that never occurred to me?

Whatever the heck happened to Jemma? Isn't Elizabeth Henstridge on the cast list for season 3?

I forgot his name but that agent who kept that intel in his nose was never seen being killed. I was hoping to see him again but if we haven't by now, I doubt he made it.

Agent Shaw was one of Hand's inner circle in "Turn, Turn, Turn". He was one of the agents killed by Ward at the end of the episode.

I remember rewatching that episode and realizing he wasn't one of the two guys shot.

Correct. Ward gunned down Hand and one-off agents Jacobson and Chaimson. Shaw hasn't been seen since his last appearance at the Hub.

I haven't seen the episode yet, but the talk of Gemma being absorbed into the goop makes me think it might be the Supreme Intelligence or a piece of the Supreme Intelligence. Or have they already introduced the SI in Guardians of the Galaxy or something?

Guardians of the Galaxy makes no mention of anything Supreme Intelligence-like. Just that the peace treaty between the Kree Empire and the Nova Empire was signed by the Kree Emperor and Nova Prime.

 

[kirk55555]

I think she cares. She went out of her way to try to befriend Kara when Kara was at SHIELD HQ. But she does not regret her choice, even if she regrets the harm that came from that choice against her will. Again, to her mind, it's a question of "Potential for no or less harm vs. certainty of great harm?" She made her choice and feels confident that it was the best possible choice she could have made at that time given the information she had.

So why does she seem so uncompassionate towards Kara in "S.O.S.?" Well, because Kara has kidnapped her and is in the process of torturing her. I wouldn't be too inclined to show compassion towards Kara's suffering if Kara were torturing me, either. That's not because she doesn't regret Kara's pain -- it's because Kara's pain does not justify her present actions.

I agree. But I think there's also something else.

Let's say Bobbi delivers the most beautiful, sincere apology Kara could have ever hoped for. What then? They patch up Bobbi and send her home?

No. They kill her.

Bobbi didn't give them what they wanted, not because she was heartless, but because it was the best way for her to stay alive. And every moment she stonewalled them was more time for her to escape, or for the team to find her.



(Also -- you don't go by what Bobbi says -- you go by what Bobbi does. Taking that bullet for Hunter says volumes. Bobbi keeps her real emotions under tighter control than even May, I think.)

Oh, I don't think Mockingbird should have apologized. Agent 33 was obviously out of her mind, and has been since Mockingbird gave her to HYDRA. Maybe a scene, after Mockingbird was rescued, of her feeling a little remorse? Or at least not having her outright state, very believably, that she didn't regret what she did and would do it again? Maybe just a little bit of humanity in the character? At this point, Adrianne Palicki's Mockingbird is almost more of a remorseless a-hole than her version of Wonder Woman, and Palicki's Wonder Woman was a violent psychopath that was basically a female Punisher (neither of these characters are Palicki's fault, but its interesting how she's played two badly mishandled superheroes).

 

[JD]

That's just not true. It seems to me that she does feel bad about what happened to Kara, but she doesn't regret the choice she made. When she was undercover she was in a situation where every choice she had was bad one, so she chose the least bad. Even though something bad did end up happening to Kara, it still wasn't as bad as what could have happened if she chose differently.

This was a great end to the season.
I really did expect Jiaying to be the big bad, so the stuff with her these last three episodes was a big shock.
I loved what they did with Cal here. I never would have expected him to actually end up being the one who killed Jiaying, but it worked. I thought it was a pretty great twist that she had been manipulating him all this time. I thought his end here was a great happy/sad ending. I wonder if Skye will continue visiting him?
I am glad that Mack seems to have turned around in his attitudes, and is sticking around.
I wonder what will become of Lincoln? I wonder if he will take over as the leader of Afterlife, and be an ally of S.H.I.E.L.D.?
I did not expect Ward to become the next head of Hydra.
I loved the end with the Fish Oil, it'll be interesting to see what happens once Inhumans start randomly popping up all over.
The Kree artifiact swallowing Simmons was a hell of a cliffhanger.

 

[Beagleman]

Or at least not having her outright state, very believably, that she didn't regret what she did and would do it again?

But she did the right thing, there is nothing to regret. She made the right call.

 

[kirk55555]

That's debatable, and I'm sure Agent 33, pre and post-insanity, would agree. Its not like Mockingbird has a history of doing the right thing while she's been on AoS. She traded the location of an unknown number of SHIELD agents to possibly save a small group, but mostly to keep her cover. Just because she can justify it in the narrative by being a spy doesn't mean it was morally right. I suppose its pointless to argue. I think she's worse than Ward personally, but I know I'm in the minority with that opinion. If nothing else, the writers proved they could make Ward and Agent 33 slightly sympathetic, by putting them against a more unlikeable character.

 

[Timelord79 (he/him)]

So what would you have done in her situation?

 

[FreezeC77]

Woah, that was quite a season finale.

So Jiaying's powers were vampiric in nature. How come that never occurred to me?

Whatever the heck happened to Jemma? Isn't Elizabeth Henstridge on the cast list for season 3?

Jeffrey Bell is one of the showrunners and he was in charge of Angel when a main character was killed but the actress remained on the show as the character who replaced her. Amy Acker as Fred who gets her body taken over and replaced by an ancient demon Illyria.

The actress may remain but Jemma may be changed/gone.

 

[Christopher]

That's just not true. It seems to me that she does feel bad about what happened to Kara, but she doesn't regret the choice she made. When she was undercover she was in a situation where every choice she had was bad one, so she chose the least bad. Even though something bad did end up happening to Kara, it still wasn't as bad as what could have happened if she chose differently.

Yes. It's silly to call her a terrible human being for this. She's a trained human being. She's an agent and a soldier. Her job often requires her to make choices that get people hurt or killed, sometimes even her allies. A commander of a team may have to send a subordinate into harm's way and see them get gunned down by the enemy. They might feel terrible about that, but still recognize that they made the right and necessary decision given their training and the demands of the situation. If some vengeful lunatic abducts that commander and tries to get her to admit she betrayed that subordinate, and she refuses to accept that twisted reading as legitimate, that doesn't make her a heartless human being. It just makes her someone who made a tough call -- who went up against the bad guys and had to live with the fact that the bad guys hurt someone she was responsible for. But that's ultimately the bad guys' fault, not hers.

I loved what they did with Cal here. I never would have expected him to actually end up being the one who killed Jiaying, but it worked. I thought it was a pretty great twist that she had been manipulating him all this time.

As soon as Jiaying started to drain Skye's life force and it went to commercial, I realized that Cal was going to kill his wife to save his daughter, and that realization brought tears to my eyes. MacLachlan did such an amazing job making Cal a poignant character. He really did do everything out of love for his family, and Coulson saw that and used it to reach him. Jiaying just used it to manipulate him. It really was impressive how they subverted our expectations, took these two characters to such completely opposite places than we expected.

I did not expect Ward to become the next head of Hydra.

"Yeah, well, I'm gonna go build my own HYDRA! With blackjack! And hookers! In fact, forget the HYDRA!"

I kinda wish they wouldn't call it HYDRA, really. Ward should make it his own. But I guess the name has a certain cachet in the villain world, so he can use it to intimidate people and open doors and whatnot.

 

[Beagleman]

I think she's worse than Ward personally, but I know I'm in the minority with that opinion. If nothing else, the writers proved they could make Ward and Agent 33 slightly sympathetic, by putting them against a more unlikeable character.

That is simply insane. Someone who does exactly the job they are suposed to do, without knowingly doing harm to anyone but saving other Agents against a psychotic mass-murderer. I guess it's clear, who's the more sympathetic one...to a complete psychopath.

 

[Lyon_Wonder]

I was half-expecting that the Iliad would be destroyed and sunk in the finale, but it’s still afloat. I wonder if the carrier will still be in use by shield in S3?

The alien artifact that swallowed Simmons is a Kree blob, though I doubt Jemma will be gone for long.

The goons Ward’s recruiting in the bar as his new team look like they’re from Hydra’s “Dreadnoks” faction. It’s rumored that Baron Zemo’s going to be in Captain America: Civil War, so I guess Ward won’t be the only one having a claim to Hydra’s leadership. More than likely Ward’s leadership will belong to this new faction of Hydra he’s establishing that will probably be the successor to Whitehall/Reinhardt's faction in North America.

IMO, Coulson’s team will be spending Season 3 encountering inhumans who were accidentally powered by the terrigen-contaminated fish-oil and dealing with Ward and his Hydra faction.

 

[The Old Mixer]

"HAIL HYDRA! Cut off one head and...well, that's pretty much it at this point...."

 

[Reverend]

"HAIL HYDRA! Cut off one head and...well, that's pretty much it at this point...."

At least until the Red Skull returns.

 

[Hartzilla2007]

Of course, if we're gonna drag Star Trek into this, perhaps we should consider that episode of TNG where Troi learns that in order to pass the Bridge Officers Test, she has to be willing to send a crewmember to his death in order to save the ship ("Thine Own Self").

Thats not right either, it would be more like Troi irradiating a random deck with lethal levels of radiation to save the ship while hoping no one was in there and then finding out ensign newbie got fried.

Because I'm not really sure an undercover operative deliberately screwing another person on their side is allowed.