Careful, that may be a controlled substance.
A Niner Watches Babylon 5 (NO spoilers, please)
- Thread starter TheGodBen
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Careful, that may be a controlled substance.
While that's certainly part of it, I believe it was actually somewhat more complicated.
Yes, some of the stories had been pulled forward into season 4 (basically from "Between the Darkness and the Light" to "Rising Star"). But JMS was also contending with a number of other problems at the time.
* Claudia Christian left, requiring him to create the new character of Cpt. Lockley, and thereby redesign the planned stories to introduce and accommodate her.
* Some of the planned storylines regarding "building the Alliance," he decided to remove from season 5 and hold back for the spin-off as it was currently conceived. Then he changed his mind again about what the spin-off was going to be about, but it was too late to put them back into season 5 of B5, leaving those plot-lines abandoned and unwritten.
* Many of his planned notes for season 5 were lost during a convention at a hotel.
All of this is why there are stretches of season 5 that seem so dragged out, and why the planned-as-a-small-subplot Telepath storyline became so prominent - he had nothing else to work with.
* Some of the planned storylines regarding "building the Alliance," he decided to remove from season 5 and hold back for the spin-off as it was currently conceived. Then he changed his mind again about what the spin-off was going to be about, but it was too late to put them back into season 5 of B5, leaving those plot-lines abandoned and unwritten.
* Many of his planned notes for season 5 were lost during a convention at a hotel.
All of this is why there are stretches of season 5 that seem so dragged out, and why the planned-as-a-small-subplot Telepath storyline became so prominent - he had nothing else to work with.
The Centauri Prime arc- and Londo's role in determining his world's fate- will indeed continue, and in my opinion remains one of the greatest strengths of the show.
And you're correct in assuming that the Earth/human civil war plot will become prominant again now that the Shadow War is concluded. If that's your greatest interest, you'll probably enjoy this season 
. Also, the politics of the younger races will indeed get quite interesting now that they're free from First One control. I agree that the Shadow War could have been strengthened by greater focus on the anatagonist's motives, but I was certainly satisfied with its resolution. Having the conflict determined by ideological rather than straightforwardly military means was a move I applaud, and I must say I was able to buy into the conflict quite readily. I found it genuinely moving, perhaps because the "family" dynamic of overbearing parents and children caught in the middle was one to which I can relate. How viewers respond to the end of the Shadow War depends on how they've connected with the story, I think. Some people find Bab-5 very entertaining but feel cheated or remain unconvinced by the arc's resolution, because they still relate to it as a military problem. If you see it instead as an ideological problem, the arc's conclusion is a lot more satisfying. It seems to me you've accepted that view of the conflict, which I consider essential to a genuine appreciation of the series (whatever your view on the strength of the overall arc)
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Some of Ivanova's plot was shifted to Lyta; originally she was to be the one with Byron.
If I followed Joe's comments in the scripts books correctly and you're referring to the "Empire Building" threads, they weren't going to be in season five in the first place if there hadn't been an issue of renewal between four/five. They were written to fill in space made by moving the Earth civil war/Minbari civil war plots completely into season four and specifically to set up the sequel, and Joe took them out because he felt the main story of Babylon 5 would end with too many unresolved plot threads this way.
This was probably the part that sucked most. The first half of season five's handwritten notes made years earlier were thrown out. Joe however said that from about "In the Kingdom of the Blind" to the end of the show was about what he wanted, and episodes like "Long Night of Londo Mollari" and "A View from the Gallery" probably would have been done either way so all in all that's a good chunk of season five still where it was supposed to be.
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If I could grow to accept the resolution to the Dominion War then I couldn't possibly have a problem with the solution to the Shadow War.How viewers respond to the end of the Shadow War depends on how they've connected with the story, I think. Some people find Bab-5 very entertaining but feel cheated or remain unconvinced by the arc's resolution, because they still relate to it as a military problem. If you see it instead as an ideological problem, the arc's conclusion is a lot more satisfying. It seems to me you've accepted that view of the conflict, which I consider essential to a genuine appreciation of the series (whatever your view on the strength of the overall arc)
My only real problem with it was Sheridan's "Now get the hell out of our galaxy!", that felt like a bad Janeway line. It reminded me of "Go back to hell, coward!" 
Epiphanies (***½)
Hang on, Bester is a good guy? Garibaldi is up to something devious? The Vorlons are bad guys? Vir is a good character? I am deeply, deeply confused by all of this.
So, Earth decided to cut off all travel to Babylon 5, which is something I'm surprised they didn't do sooner. If they're trying to make Babylon 5 out to be a traitorous state that's opposed to freedom and democracy and all that good stuff, why would EarthGov risk letting citizens go there to find out the truth? I know this has all come about now because the Shadows are gone, it just seems like something that would have happened sooner. Whatever happened to the rebellious Earth Alliance ship from Severed Dreams? They weren't anywhere to be seen during the Shadow War, have they been killed or are they in hiding or something?
This episode is okay, and it had a planet blowing up which always gets a bonus point from me, but it wasn't thrilling. It was nice and enjoyable and Bester was in it, but not much seemed to happen. The Revelation that Lyta was partly responsible for Z'ha'dum blowing up didn't interest me, but that's because Lyta doesn't interest me. Sure, she looks nice in that leather top, most red-heads do, but now that the Vorlons are gone she doesn't have much to do. I'll wait and see how she turns out.
Didn't you love that last scene, though? Chilling.
Bigger fish to fry I suppose. They have Mars (right next door to Earth and with a population of 2,000,000) again in open rebellion against Earth rule, plus Proxima III and Orion VII, two of the larger outer colonies plus twenty odd colonies and outposts spread across over a dozen systems. We don't know how many of those stayed loyal or attempted to break away but we do know none of them had an alien fleet willing to defend them so Earthforce has it's hands full and B5 is just to tough a target so come at head-on.
As for why wait this long for a blockade, well for one they probably couldn't afford the cost in manpower and equipment needed to maintain an embargo while they've got so much territory to secure. It's probably taken them this long just to consolidate what they have.
Besides, cutting off B5 is really just a prelude to the propaganda war. I don't think they're worried about many citizens going and seeing the truth for themselves (like we saw in 'Shadow Dancing'.) B5 is a way station with a capacity of 250,000, a good chunk of which are non-human. Earth on the other hand has a population of 10 billion. Even at the best of times, the station is never going to be a prime holiday destination. If someone had come back and started telling the truth to anyone who'd hear, how long do you think before Nightwatch hears about it and what do you think they'd do about it? Do you think ISN would report anything not pre-approved by Earthdome?
Remember, Earth is still under martial law and curfew. Information is tightly controlled and people are being watched VERY closely. OR at least most people think they're being watch most of the time, which has pretty much the same effect.
Fear not, the Alexander hasn't been forgotten.
If you recall from previous seasons, the pace of the show comes in peaks and valleys. We've just had a crescendo to what was a sizeable chunk of the show, so expect the next couple of episodes to take it easy for a while before ramping up again from the end of the season.
Lyta still has some more to offer yet. Some of her best stuff is yet to come, a good chunk of it is is the 'Thirdspace' movie. Speaking of which, that takes place round about now-ish, so feel free to look at that any time now.
Though they never really go into what the ships in the EA Resistance were actually doing during the Shadow War. I prefer to believe they were contributing, and poor shot direction meant those ships were always just off-screen in episodes like "Shadow Dancing" or "Into the Fire." (I also like to imagine there were a few Centauri ships in "Into the Fire," too) I mean, as time goes on, more and more of the alien characters are going to refer to "the humans" as being the lynchpin of the Shadow War, and that's already a bit of a stretch considering that Earth was on the Shadow's side, and didn't really participate at all. If the sole human contribution to the War effort was the less than half-dozen Earthers who told the starfury pilots on B5 and the human Rangers what to shoot at, then that human-worship is just kind of stupid.
It'd be like saying the Centauri were champions of the oppressed based on Vir's underground railroad.
It'd be like saying the Centauri were champions of the oppressed based on Vir's underground railroad.
I don't think they were involved in the Shadow war. More likely they were aiding the resistance movements on the colonies under siege and staying one step ahead of loyalist patrols. More to the point, I'm pretty sure the Alexander was the only rebel destroyer left. I think Ivanova had a line at the end of 'Point of No Return' that said the last of the ships that joined up with Hague had been shot down.
As for the Centauri fleet, they were most certainly NOT at Coriana VI or had anything to do with the Army of Light.
The assertion that humans were the linchpin is a pretty accurate one. After all a linchpin is a relatively small but absolutely vital component, without which everything else flies apart.
Sure there were 10 billion humans on Earth sat of their arses, watching Rebo and Zooty, thinking very loudly that "President Clark and Psi Corps are double plus good" but it was the several thousand humans that made up the B5 crew, the rangers and the rogue telepaths loaned out during the course of the war that made the difference, that kept the other races together.
Plus of course it was a human that went to Zha'Dum and returned, that certainly helped.
As for the Centauri fleet, they were most certainly NOT at Coriana VI or had anything to do with the Army of Light.
The assertion that humans were the linchpin is a pretty accurate one. After all a linchpin is a relatively small but absolutely vital component, without which everything else flies apart.
Sure there were 10 billion humans on Earth sat of their arses, watching Rebo and Zooty, thinking very loudly that "President Clark and Psi Corps are double plus good" but it was the several thousand humans that made up the B5 crew, the rangers and the rogue telepaths loaned out during the course of the war that made the difference, that kept the other races together.
Plus of course it was a human that went to Zha'Dum and returned, that certainly helped.
Uh, SPOILER?!
Edit: The post I was referring to is now gone.
Edit: The post I was referring to is now gone.
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I guess that Londo and the Centauri are screwed after all.
Ah yes, the movies. According to Wikipedia they were released at various points while the final season aired, so should I watch them as they were released or would it make more sense for me to wait until the show ended until I watch them?
The Illusion of Truth (**)
Ah, the final half of the one and a half news-cast episodes. I have two problems with this episode, but I'm not going to tell you what they are.
Oh all right, I will, but only because you insisted. The first problem is the first 20 minutes of the episode. There's no story here, the first half of this episode is a collection of scenes and interviews whose sole purpose for existing is to be mangled in the second part. My second problem is the final 15 minutes. At first, it is quite fun to see how ISN has abused the truth in making a propaganda piece, the problem is that the joke starts to get old after five minutes, but it just keeps on going. It's like watching one of Weebl's videos, for the first two loops it's fun, but the more it loops the more annoying it gets. I can understand JMS's point, how the media can distort facts in order to tell the story they want the audience to see, but the longer it goes on the less subtle it becomes and the more irritating.
There's some good individual scenes in the mess of a story. Garibaldi's interview is interesting as we finally get an insight as to why he has been so grumpy lately. Say, whatever happened to Mr Garibaldi while he was kidnapped by the PSi Corps? Sheridan's final scene was great, watching his utter disgust at what he allowed to happen without realising it. He shouldn't have been too surprised though, Randall always looked a bit shady to me. As the old Irish saying goes: If it looks like a cunt, sounds like a cunt and tastes like a cunt, don't be surprised if it's not an apple... and you should probably be worried about the sound part. (That's not really an Irish saying, but neither are any of the Irish sayings that Americans like to attribute to us.)
Scott Bakula: 52
Thirdspace: Really you can watch this at any time you want from here on. Judging by the uniforms and the characters who are present, most people place this chronologically between the teaser of Atonement and the rest of the episode. (That's not a spoiler---people just start moving around soon.) Doesn't hurt to hold it in reserve for after the series though.
In The Beginning: Any time after season 4, but I actually find this works really well just after the series finale.
The River of Souls: After the series.
Legend of the Rangers: Although this was produced later, it takes place before A Call To Arms, so I recommend watching it before that---especially if you intend to go through Crusade.
A Call To Arms: Prior to starting Crusade.
The Lost Tales: Any time after the series.
I feel the need to point out that he was kidnapped by the Shadows, not Psi Corps. But the answer to both those questions will come. Mind you, as is often the case on B5 there's already enough pieces on the table to make a fairly well educated guess at the broad strokes.
What Lindley said basically.
You can watch 'Thirdspace' now and probably 'In The Beginning' too, for the rest it's best to wait until after the main series is over. Don't feel like you need to watch them in any specific order as they're each pretty well self contained in terms of narrative. Thirdspace takes place around now-ish and was made after the end of the season 4 shoot but doesn't have any wider impact of the show.
'In The Beginning' is essentially the story of the Earth-Minbari War as told by a certain someone. The only real spoiler at this point is who that someone is and when the framing narrative takes place.
'River of Souls' is another self contained story that happens to take place a few months into 2263, so after the main series.
'Legend of the Rangers' was a pilot movies to a spin-off that never happened (made after Crusade, but set in 2265, a few years before it) and again, only has a thematic connection to the show proper and only one returning character (but it's a really good character.)
'A Call to Arms' is a "bridge" movie that hands the baton across from B5 to Crusade and has a mix of characters from the two shows (three from one, two from the other.) It's by no means a pilot as Crusade got a green light without needing to make one, though as luck would have it, it does have two "first episodes" aside from 'A Call to Arms'...long story. The viewing order of Crusade episodes is a WHOLE other discussion!
The recent 'Lost Tales' DVD takes place about 10 years after the end of Season 4, so save that for last. Keep in mind though, it's not a movie but a pair of short, loosely connected stories in the B5 universe. The idea was to produce a series of these DVD as sort of an anthology of little vignettes, though JMS essencially aborted it when 'WB Home Video' refused to give the project a budget that would allow them to build a third wall and hire more than two extras. It's really low budget stuff and every cent is up there on the screen, but I think it's worth it. Though it's not essential viewing, it does touch on some of the larger events that were detailed in some of the novels.
One final note: I caution you to beware of looking to wikipedia for guidance. Thar be spoilers!
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I'd like to point out that this is literally true. It sounds like hyperbole and exaggeration, but it's not. The ironic thing is, thanks to advances in technology and the fact that half the people in the TV spaceship business are there because they saw and loved Babylon 5 when they were teenagers, the CGI looks amazing. The example I always like to give for how to revamp the look of a beloved sci-fi show (or any show, I suppose) for a modern or big-screen continuation is that the new version should look like you're looking at the old version with your glasses on for the first time, and this hit that in spades. The biggest difference in look (that can't be explained away as being a starship upgrade) is the docking bay, and 90% of that is because TPTB loved the detail and intricacy of the new version so much they had them relight it so it was bright and shiny, rather than being all grey and shadowed as it was in the show.
It's a shame WB home video has so little interest in the property. If they got the original films from the show, and had Atmosphere to redo the effects for the whole show, Babylon 5 could have an absolutely amazing HD-revamp. Like TOS-R, except the spaceships would look good, too, not just the matte paintings and the easter eggs like the new clock.
I just watched that clock 1/2 hour ago! It was the first time my wife saw the new effects. She said she missed the old clock and made me switch over to the old effects.
I have no idea what the clock is that you're talking about, but it has almost pushed me over the edge in wanting to buy TOS-R.
Atonement (**½)
I have one really burning question left after watching this episode: What exactly happened to Ivanova at that Drazi party?
This episode is both good and bad in my opinion. I enjoyed watching the scenes set in the past as she gets to know Dukhat, and we get to see the beginning of the Earth-Minbari war from their point of view. I enjoyed seeing a young Delenn acting nervous around Dukhat but slowly becoming more comfortable in his presence. The revelation that she was the deciding vote for starting the war was a little melodramatic, but I'm willing to buy into it.
Unfortunately, I didn't enjoy the framing device for this story, it took long enough for Sheridan and Delenn to get together so I'm not interested in seeing this sort of artificial road-block being thrown up now. Anna was an interesting road-block because her interference was based on the past emotions and decisions of the characters, whereas this is some Minbari speciesists that have come from nowhere and are trying to dictate what Delenn should do with her life. Darned socialists!
I know it's probably the boring and non-sci-fi way to do it, but I would have preferred if Delenn had revealed her story to Sheridan so that he can know the truth, that's a situation that would have had more emotional weight. I hope that she does tell him one day and that this thread isn't left hanging, it would be far more interesting to watch Sheridan's reaction to Delenn's role in the near-extermination of his species than Lennier's.
Meanwhile, Marcus and Franklin hitch-hike across the galaxy, but they break the golden rule about bringing a towel. Marcus did bring his telescopic pole, which is almost as useful. He can use it to beat Franklin once his temper finally breaks from all the singing.
Scott Bakula: 53
Atonement (**½)
I have one really burning question left after watching this episode: What exactly happened to Ivanova at that Drazi party?
This episode is both good and bad in my opinion. I enjoyed watching the scenes set in the past as she gets to know Dukhat, and we get to see the beginning of the Earth-Minbari war from their point of view. I enjoyed seeing a young Delenn acting nervous around Dukhat but slowly becoming more comfortable in his presence. The revelation that she was the deciding vote for starting the war was a little melodramatic, but I'm willing to buy into it.
Unfortunately, I didn't enjoy the framing device for this story, it took long enough for Sheridan and Delenn to get together so I'm not interested in seeing this sort of artificial road-block being thrown up now. Anna was an interesting road-block because her interference was based on the past emotions and decisions of the characters, whereas this is some Minbari speciesists that have come from nowhere and are trying to dictate what Delenn should do with her life. Darned socialists!
I know it's probably the boring and non-sci-fi way to do it, but I would have preferred if Delenn had revealed her story to Sheridan so that he can know the truth, that's a situation that would have had more emotional weight. I hope that she does tell him one day and that this thread isn't left hanging, it would be far more interesting to watch Sheridan's reaction to Delenn's role in the near-extermination of his species than Lennier's.
Meanwhile, Marcus and Franklin hitch-hike across the galaxy, but they break the golden rule about bringing a towel. Marcus did bring his telescopic pole, which is almost as useful. He can use it to beat Franklin once his temper finally breaks from all the singing.
Scott Bakula: 53
New clock.
Clock classic.
JMS wrote:
Scott Baker <76072.1744@compuserve.com> asks:
> Why didn't Delenn tell John the truth about her trip to Minbar,
> and won't John be slightly ticked off when he finds out the
> truth?
"Listen, honey, while you were out I went to the store and I
bought some new candles, you know how we're always running out, and
Lennier took the cat in to be cleaned, and oh, did I mention I was
directly responsible for the deaths of two hundred and fifty thousand
of your best friends and fellow officers? Pass the sugar."
She'll never tell him.
Because it's over...what would be the point, except to ruin what
they have now.
jms
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