A Niner Watches Babylon 5 (NO spoilers, please)

[Deranged Nasat]

I too love the Vir scene, and I'm glad you liked it, TGB.

I don't have much else to say now, but I'll be intriqued at your response to the next episode for sure- I'm certain I'll have lots to say then, particularly as I referenced its events in a rather lengthy discussion in the Trek lit forum recently.

 

[TheGodBen]

Into the Fire (****)

Wait, so the Shadow War really did end this early into season 4? I wasn't expecting it to be over so soon. Now what is the show going to be about? I really hope the answer isn't time travel and magic light corks.

The Shadow War was enjoyable enough, but if I'm completely honest it wasn't entirely gripping, largely because the antagonists were so vague for much of the war and the drama came from younger races reacting to the events of the war rather than from the war itself. Then again, that seems to be the way it was supposed to have been, we weren't supposed to care about the two main sides in the Shadow War, we were supposed to join a third side that wanted the war to stop. In which case the storyline was successful. Personally, I'm more interested in returning to the conflict with Earth, that storyline has been ignored ever since Severed Dreams, and from what it says on the DVD about the next episode it seems like my wish is going to come true.

So the Shadows are gone, and the Vorlons are gone, and all the First Ones are gone? The younger races are now free from their influence? Good. It will be interesting to see how the politics of this new situation will grow, how the races will react to finally being free from external influences. It's a power-keg that could explode in everyone's faces, or it could lead to peace and unity. Who knows? Well, most of you guys do because you've watched the show before.

One big question remains: Did Londo really save Centauri Prime from the fate shown in War Without End, or was that due to an unrelated incident which is yet to occur? I'll find out eventually, I'm sure.


So, was the Shadow War always meant to end this early, or was it cut short because JMS thought the show was going to end without a fifth season?

 

[lennier1]

Don't forget that the show was originally had faced the threat of cancellation resulting in them trying to wrap up things in season 4 (it always had been planned as a 5 season story).
When they had to do a fifth season after all they had to make do with some of the remaining plot lines (JMS always leaves lots of questions unanswered just in case). Hence season 5 being viewed as the show's bastard child even though it's still worth watching.

 

[Hound of UIster]

One big question remains: Did Londo really save Centauri Prime from the fate shown in War Without End, or was that due to an unrelated incident which is yet to occur? I'll find out eventually, I'm sure.

No.

So, was the Shadow War always meant to end this early, or was it cut short because JMS thought the show was going to end without a fifth season?

No it was meant to last at least a decade. But his original plans probably got dumped halfway through season 2 possibly even earlier.

 

[Ensign_Redshirt]

I could watch this episode over and over again because of Londo & Morden...

"He PLAYED me! He played me like a PUPPET!"



"So what are you going to do, Mollari? Huh? Blow up the island?"

"Actually, now that you mention it...."

"Nooooo!"

 

[Forbin]

"So what are you going to do, Mollari? Huh? Blow up the island?"

"Actually, now that you mention it...."

One of my favorite moments in the whole series. A moment of dry humor and a moment of absolute shock all together. Utterly brilliant.

 

[lennier1]

And Vir finally got the chance to wink.

 

[JoeD80]

So, was the Shadow War always meant to end this early, or was it cut short because JMS thought the show was going to end without a fifth season?

No it was meant to last at least a decade. But his original plans probably got dumped halfway through season 2 possibly even earlier.

No, his plans did not get dumped; regardless of when it was going to happen, this is exactly how the Shadow/Vorlon conflict was to be resolved. Also, it was planned fairly early on to end the Shadow conflict in season four. Joe said several times as early as season two/three that he didn't want the Shadow War to last into season five because he felt that it would make the show boring.

EDIT (found quotes):

There was never the intention of carrying the shadow war through seasons 4 and 5. That'd get boring.

I think it's fair to say that the shadow war will drag on into at least a portion of the fourth season.

[the shadow war] wouldn't run until the end of the series.

 

[Lindley]

As I've heard it, season 4 only got compressed by a few episodes as a result of the maybe-no-year-5 issue, and most of those came out of the middle section. So Into the Fire might have been moved up by one episode at most.

 

[JoeD80]

Dug around a bit. Joe said he moved it forward by 4.

I basically slid [Into the Fire] forward about 4 episodes or thereabouts; the resolution as shown was always the planned resolution.

 

[Stone_Cold_Sisko]

So, was the Shadow War always meant to end this early, or was it cut short because JMS thought the show was going to end without a fifth season?

No it was meant to last at least a decade. But his original plans probably got dumped halfway through season 2 possibly even earlier.

No, his plans did not get dumped; regardless of when it was going to happen, this is exactly how the Shadow/Vorlon conflict was to be resolved. Also, it was planned fairly early on to end the Shadow conflict in season four. Joe said several times as early as season two/three that he didn't want the Shadow War to last into season five because he felt that it would make the show boring.

I believe Hound is referring to the "original arc" document that JMS included in his last script-book.

In that, the Shadow War (which is slightly different) does not actually end in B5, it goes on, and B5 ends with Sinclair/Delenn on the run, with the Minbari Warrior caste on the warpath. Then there is an idea for a spinoff (Babylon Prime) in which the Shadow War is wrapped up. That would also be a 5 year arc, hence the above comment about it "lasting a decade" (B5 + B Prime, both 5 year stories)

S1 of this "original arc" (which was used while S1 was going into production) matches the aired S1 almost exactly, but it begins diverging heavily in S2, hence Hound's comment about it being dumped in S2 (i'm more inclined to think the arc was probably heavily redone when the Sinclair/Sheriden switch happened during the 'offseason').

here's a detailed synopsis of it (TheGodBen, you'll wan to stay away from this link). Everything Hound says more or less matches this document:
http://www.trekbbs.com/showthread.php?t=53739

(it's such a great thread I'm almost tempted to bump it back up, since I seem to come back to it every couple of months)

 

[JoeD80]

Keep in mind that Joe wrote the 10-page outline for Larry DiTillio, so he didn't want to put his biggest spoilers in it. Joe wrote out 110 notecards containing all the benchmarks for the series for himself. That's the detailed outline that no one but him got to see.

 

[Sakrysta]

This thread is making me really want to pull out my B5 DVDs. Ah, for more time to just lounge in front of the TV and inhale the dreams of the future!

 

[Stone_Cold_Sisko]

Keep in mind that Joe wrote the 10-page outline for Larry DiTillio, so he didn't want to put his biggest spoilers in it. Joe wrote out 110 notecards containing all the benchmarks for the series for himself. That's the detailed outline that no one but him got to see.

True, and there are multiple versions of the arcs in different time periods, it was a fluid thing as JMS himself has said.

but my point in general was that your authoritative "no you're wrong" response to Hound seems a little haughty considering everything Hound says comes STRAIGHT OUT of a JMS document that he wrote AND published himself.

Hound's comments are not wrong.

 

[Reverend]

Don't forget that the show was originally had faced the threat of cancellation resulting in them trying to wrap up things in season 4 (it always had been planned as a 5 season story).
When they had to do a fifth season after all they had to make do with some of the remaining plot lines (JMS always leaves lots of questions unanswered just in case). Hence season 5 being viewed as the show's bastard child even though it's still worth watching.

I think it's only fair to point out that the extent of story compression in season 4 tends to get a little overstated. Without getting into story details, all that really happened was that three episodes were removed (one from the Shadow War, one from the middle and one from the end of the season) so the show could get to "an" end, not "the" end by the conclusion of the 4th season. The original intention was to end the 4th season on something of a cliffhanger like with Season 3, but now that cliffhanger just plays out in the following episodes rather than the next season.

Conversely, the impact on the 5th season is that certain plot threads had to be extended by three episodes because the slight shortening of season 4 left a little vacuum. The idea that the 5th season was an afterthought is just nonsense.

On a side note, does anyone know who did the voice for the "Lady in ice" Vorlon? At times it sounds like it might be Pat Tallman but I'm not sure. It would make sense to use her I suppose and they did use Ed Wasser (Morden) as the voice of the Shadow near the end.

 

[Ensign_Redshirt]

I think I read somewhere that either "The Face of the Enemy" or "Intersections in Real Time" were originally intended by JMS as the Season 4 finale. This means that Season 4 (as it was originally planned) was "cut short" by four or five episodes.

 

[Hound of UIster]

Spoiler: //

Sheridan being a captive of the Earth Alliance and Clarke seems the most natural finale for season 4

 

[Ensign_Redshirt]

Ha, managed to dig up a JMS quote on that matter.

Spoiler: //

"I don't usually comment on this, but...if I had known *with absolute certainty* that there would be a season 5, then season 4 would have ended with 418, "Intersections in Real Time." So you only pull 4 episodes forward, really. You'll understand when you see it."

http://www.midwinter.com/lurk/guide/084.html

 

[JoeD80]

but my point in general was that your authoritative "no you're wrong" response
...
Hound's comments are not wrong.

I didn't say "you are wrong"; I just pointed out that Joe commented that the resolution to the Vorlon/Shadow conflict was always planned to be the same regardless of when it was to happen, so his plans didn't get dumped. Changing when it happens didn't change how it happened. I was also following more on the thread of the original question quoted in my post at the same time ("was it cut short because JMS thought the show was going to end without a fifth season?"). <- no, Joe planned as early as season two to end the Shadow conflict in season four.

 

[Forbin]

This thread is making me really want to pull out my B5 DVDs. Ah, for more time to just lounge in front of the TV and inhale the dreams of the future!

Poetically put!